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Rice


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#61 liuzhou

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:28 AM

Yes, but Hainanese chicken as served in N. America is an American or Malaysian invention. I have been to Hainan often and never seen it on a menu outside of deeply tourist ghettoes and that only recently.

Yes I salt rice for some non-Asian applications

Edited by liuzhou, 28 December 2012 - 09:38 AM.


#62 huiray

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:47 AM

Yes, but Hainanese chicken as served in N. America is an American invention. I have been to Hainan often and never seen it on a menu outside of deeply tourist ghettoes and that only recently.

Yes I salt rice for non-Asian applications


Um, Hainanese chicken rice is NOT an American invention. The dish traditionally known on Hainan is properly known as "Wenchang chicken" (文昌雞). Hainanese chicken, as cooked by folks in Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, etc etc is "derived from" Wenchang chicken but has acquired its own identity. Perhaps yhou ate the stuff that had been "back-imported" onto Hainan. "Hainanese chicken" as served in the US in restaurants is usually a pale imitation of the stuff you would get in SE Asia, although some are pretty good. I make my own Hainanese chicken and Hainanese chicken rice. In all cases (at home or in restaurants) the rice is made with salted stock.

http://en.wikipedia....se_chicken_rice

http://steamykitchen...icken-rice.html
http://www.yoursinga...icken-rice.html
http://rasamalaysia.com/chicken-rice/
http://www.malaysiak...se-chicken-rice
http://www.yoursinga...icken-rice.html
http://www.vietworld...an-chicken.html
http://www.malaysian...inanchicken.htm
etc etc


http://egullet.org/p1902527

Edited by huiray, 28 December 2012 - 09:57 AM.


#63 patrickamory

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:52 AM

I always salt American rice (liberally) while cooking.

I don't salt Asian or Indian rices.

Edited by patrickamory, 28 December 2012 - 09:52 AM.


#64 liuzhou

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:55 AM

Come on. I've eaten Wenchang chicken" (文昌雞) in Wenchang. It is not the same as what is served in America as Hainese chicken. Not even near. I travel to Hainan often. I'm going again just after the new year break. And as I said before you can't find the dish outside the tourist enclaves.

Interesting that al your links are from everywhere except Hainan. And don't quote Wikipedia at me.

in the US in restaurants is usually a pale imitation of the stuff you would get in SE Asia


Of course.

In fact your post generally agrees with me! I actually edited my post to say it originated in the US or Malaysia, but that edit didn't work. Wherever it was invented it wasn't Hainan. The forums' editing function is screwed.

Edited by liuzhou, 28 December 2012 - 10:07 AM.


#65 huiray

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:05 AM

Come on. I've eaten Wenchang chicken" (文昌雞) in Wenchang. It is not the same as what is served in American as Hainese chicken.

In fact your post agrees with me!

in the US in restaurants is usually a pale imitation of the stuff you would get in SE Asia


On the contrary.

Nowhere did I specifically talk about "American Hainanese Chicken Rice" in my previous post. I talked about the dish regardless of where it was served. I provided links to articles describing the dish, all of which illustrate that your statement that "Hainanese Chicken Rice" as served in the US is an "American invention" is false per se because it is NOT an "American invention". It is simply that the version served in the US in restaurants seldom is as good as what one gets in SE Asia, but the character of the dish is basically the same as what you would get in SE Asia.

If you are saying that the Hainanese Chicken Rice I made myself is "an American invention" simply because I made it in the US (since I live here) then you are wrong, wrong, wrong, Sir.

There is also no basis for comparing "Wenchang Chicken" with what is served in the US. Apples and oranges.

Edited by huiray, 28 December 2012 - 10:07 AM.


#66 liuzhou

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:09 AM

There is also no basis for comparing "Wenchang Chicken" with what is served in the US.


Excuse me, but it was you who compared the two. Not me.

The dish traditionally known on Hainan is properly known as "Wenchang chicken" (文昌雞).



in the US in restaurants is usually a pale imitation of the stuff you would get in SE Asia

On the contrary.


So you are disagreeing with yourself?

Edited by liuzhou, 28 December 2012 - 10:19 AM.


#67 liuzhou

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:15 AM

And back to salt...

#68 huiray

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:24 AM

There is also no basis for comparing "Wenchang Chicken" with what is served in the US.


Excuse me, but it was you who compared the two. Not me.

The dish traditionally known on Hainan is properly known as "Wenchang chicken" (文昌雞).



in the US in restaurants is usually a pale imitation of the stuff you would get in SE Asia

On the contrary.


So you are disagreeing with yourself?


Not at all.

It is you who are reading contrary interpretations into what I said.

As for Wenchang Chicken, I *said* that it is a different dish. I was *not* comparing it with "Hainanse Chicken Rice". It is *your* interpretation that I was comparing the two.

#69 liuzhou

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:30 AM

Yawn.

#70 huiray

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:34 AM

Come on. I've eaten Wenchang chicken" (文昌雞) in Wenchang. It is not the same as what is served in America as Hainese chicken. Not even near. I travel to Hainan often. I'm going again just after the new year break. And as I said before you can't find the dish outside the tourist enclaves.

Interesting that al your links are from everywhere except Hainan. And don't quote Wikipedia at me.

in the US in restaurants is usually a pale imitation of the stuff you would get in SE Asia


Of course.

In fact your post generally agrees with me! I actually edited my post to say it originated in the US or Malaysia, but that edit didn't work. Wherever it was invented it wasn't Hainan. The forums' editing function is screwed.


Interesting the number of edits your post has undergone.

Of course the links I posted are not from Hainan. It is precisely because the dish I talk about nowadays called "Hainanese Chicken Rice" was developed outside of Hainan. The history of it is called out in the links. It is disingenuous of you to complain that the links do not include any from Hainan.

As for Wikipedia and your sneering at it - in my opinion it is misguided to consider it with contempt. On the contrary - it is quite useful, and is a quite suitable "jumping off" point for many things, with citations to look up as one wishes. If you have such a disregard for the site - then just look up the other links I listed.

#71 liuzhou

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:53 AM

It is precisely because the dish I talk about nowadays called "Hainanese Chicken Rice" was developed outside of Hainan.

What I said from the beginning.



I will continue to sneer at Wikipedia though. It would take me ten minutes to change the description to suggest Hainanese Chicken was invented in Northern Scotland. Which wouldn't surprise me.

#72 huiray

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:03 AM

It is precisely because the dish I talk about nowadays called "Hainanese Chicken Rice" was developed outside of Hainan.

What I said from the beginning.


Yet you said that "Hainanese chicken rice" as served in America was an American invention (before you started editing your post after I responded) and it was my original point that it was NOT.

#73 SobaAddict70

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:24 AM

I like rice, lol, based on how often I eat it and the contents of my pantry.

going off the top of my head, there's probably at least 3 different kinds right now -- arborio, jasmine, brown basmati and Japanese sushi rice.

I don't use a rice cooker because of lack of space and the way my kitchen is configured when it comes to electric sockets. only one socket in the kitchen, on the wall to my right if I were standing in front of the stove, and located a few feet above the rear back right burner. not the best place, in my opinion. there is a socket in the hallway, but it's not terribly convenient. so that option is out.

I use a ratio of 1 cup rice to 2.05 to 2.10 cups water. I like my rice a little moist so that if I end up overcooking it, I won't end up with a crust on the bottom of the pot. this method works for me. in addition, I don't do the knuckle thing. never have.

In addition to water, I have done any of the following at one point or another -- chicken stock, vegetable stock, fish or seafood stock, coconut milk; first toasting the grains in butter, oil or schmaltz. and that doesn't enter into the realm of risotto making.

for risottos, they range from traditional italian risotto alla milanese, to sweet risottos (the most recent one I did was sweet coconut risotto with meyer lemon confiture, sort of a grown-up version of rice pudding), to non-traditional risotto like a tomato risotto with tomato confit. in the spring, I like to do risotto with fava beans, ramps, morels and asparagus. risotto with peas and mint is an idea that, oddly enough, I have not yet attempted.

I adore Hainanese chicken rice, but don't make it as often as I should. I do have some turkey parts which I was saving for stock. Hmm, might have to repurpose some of that this weekend as this thread has given me a couple of new ideas so far. No, Hainanese turkey rice isn't traditional, but I'm sure it will be delicious.

edit: there is also Indian rice -- lemon rice, tamarind rice, coconut rice or a biryani. lemon rice is probably my favorite -- cooked basmati rice, flavored with toasted spices, ghee, lemon juice, chiles, chopped peanuts and cilantro. my mouth is watering just typing this sentence.

Edited by SobaAddict70, 28 December 2012 - 11:33 AM.


#74 Soup

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:14 AM

Good topic.

Rice is a staple in our house hold. We primary eat short grain rice with basmati close second. For short grain we've been buying Kokuho brand (the red pkging) for decades. For basmati, I tried many variety have settled on Tilda brand. However, we also keep 4 to 6 additional varieties in the house.

I did have one enlightening moment a couple of years ago on rice. I went to a persian resturant. Since then I've had a lot of different varieties of persian rice dishes. IMHO, I believe persians make the best rice on the planet. This is tough statement for a asian person who grew up on short grain rice to make but they have the best rice dish.

On risotto, is there just bad to mediocre risotto everywhere? Everytime I order this dish, it is just a huge dissappointment. I keep expecting it to be good but it never is. Just went to a pricey place over the holidays and the risotto was pretty bad, mushy and cruchy (in an unpleasent not fully cooked rice way).

#75 liuzhou

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:38 AM

Just went to a pricey place over the holidays and the risotto was pretty bad, mushy and cruchy (in an unpleasent not fully cooked rice way).


You are not the first person I've come across who feels this way. It seems to me that people used to Asian rice cooking find risotto at best strange, at worst unpleasant. And "undercooked" is a frequent complaint.

The staff in my local (ludicrously overpriced) Italian restaurant in the local (ludicrously overpriced) "International" hotel spend hours every week explaining to local clientèle that the translation of risotto into "肉汁烩饭*' might not convey quite what they expect. I virtually had to sign a waive of rights form before they would serve it to me. It was lovely.

*Literally "Gravy braised rice"

Edited by liuzhou, 29 December 2012 - 07:42 AM.


#76 Kerry Beal

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:50 PM

IMG_0469.jpg

I was fortunate to have someone bring me this steamer basket from Thailand recently (thanks again guys) so tonight I'm playing with steaming some glutinous rice. Soaked it for about 8 hours (then remembered it was there).

Took about 30 minutes to steam.

IMG_0472.jpg


Perfect!

When I think of the frustration when I tried to steam a quantity in the steamer on my thermomix it make me wish I'd had this little baby ages ago.

Now to perfect the Thai peanut sauce to go with it.

#77 Keith_W

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:04 AM

Interesting method, Kerry. I'm not so sure about soaking the rice for 8 hours though, and I am surprised that you obtained whole grains after soaking rice for that long. I have found from experience that even soaking rice for half an hour negatively affects the texture. I would soak rice grains if I am making congee, though.
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#78 Kerry Beal

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:10 AM

All instructions that I find say to soak at least 4 hours or overnight.

#79 mkayahara

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 06:03 AM

Nice one, Kerry! Glad to see it worked out. Did you end up using the asparagus pot as the base?
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#80 nickrey

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 06:44 AM

Just went to a pricey place over the holidays and the risotto was pretty bad, mushy and cruchy (in an unpleasent not fully cooked rice way).


You are not the first person I've come across who feels this way. It seems to me that people used to Asian rice cooking find risotto at best strange, at worst unpleasant. And "undercooked" is a frequent complaint.

The staff in my local (ludicrously overpriced) Italian restaurant in the local (ludicrously overpriced) "International" hotel spend hours every week explaining to local clientèle that the translation of risotto into "肉汁烩饭*' might not convey quite what they expect. I virtually had to sign a waive of rights form before they would serve it to me. It was lovely.

*Literally "Gravy braised rice"

Not just people who are used to Asian rice cooking. Most restaurant "risotto" is par cooked and finished off in a blaze of glory. I've yet to have a restaurant risotto that meets what can be made at home. If it comes out from the kitchen in under twenty minutes, I'd be very suspicious of how it is made.

With regard to salting water for cooking rice, are you sure you're not mixing it up with pasta? I've yet to see a recommendation in any Asian or Indian cuisine cookbooks to salt cooking water for steamed/boiled/absorption method rice. It may occur in Persian and Moorish influenced food such as Paella and Pilaf but salt in many Asian cuisines is added through the medium of soy or fish sauce, not through adding table salt and especially not in the initial cooking of the rice.

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#81 huiray

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:03 AM

Regarding soaking the rice before steaming in the basket Kerry Teal shows: I imagine it would vary with the type of rice used?

Here's a video of a street vendor in Kanchanaburi, Thailand, using that basket.
http://importfood.co.../025-Dish8.html
The narrator states that the glutinous rice being steamed had been soaking for several hours. Perhaps overnight soaking might be at the far end of what is recommended but most recipes for steaming glutinous rice or sticky rice does seem to call for soaking for a few hours at least. Some say to soak for no more than x hours (less than overnight).

Here's an alternative to the basket - use a splatter guard!
http://shesimmers.co...-a-steamer.html

#82 Kerry Beal

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:12 AM

Nice one, Kerry! Glad to see it worked out. Did you end up using the asparagus pot as the base?


Pasta pot!

#83 Dejah

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:44 AM

On the topic of soaking glutineous rice overnight before steaming, my Mom always did this. The amount of water used was about an inch above the rice. In the morning, all the water will have been absorbed. She'd steam it along with diced cured meats on a cloth inside the steamer, and it would be done in 30 minutes. Each grain of rice maintained it's shape with a bit of stickiness - lap yuk nor mai fan...YUM!

I have only seen non-Chinese recipes that called for salting the water before cooking rice. My Canadian-born nieces "salt" their rice with butter. :laugh:

AS for risotto, I can't get past the "wetness' - :sad: I've GOT to try and enjoy it one of these days. Maybe if I can make a decent version at home?
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#84 patrickamory

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:49 AM

Yes, soak Thai glutinous rice overnight and cook for 30 minutes in a traditional steamer basket - exactly right Kerry!

Per Kasma's advice here:

http://thaifoodandtr.../steamedst.html

It's always worked perfectly for me.

#85 C. sapidus

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:58 PM

. . . I've yet to see a recommendation in any Asian or Indian cuisine cookbooks to salt cooking water for steamed/boiled/absorption method rice.

This triggered my curiosity so I checked my stash of Indian cookbooks. For plain Basmati rice most recipes do not include salt, but a few specify "salt to taste" or some such. Completely agree that the Thai and Chinese cookbooks that I am familiar with assume unsalted rice.

Indian recipes for non-plain rice - pilafs, pulaos, kichiri, etc. - usually call for salt.

#86 liuzhou

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:17 PM

With regard to salting water for cooking rice, are you sure you're not mixing it up with pasta?


Er, if that is addressed at me, you might note that I said rice isn't salted in most Asian cuisines. Post 59.

#87 jsager01

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:47 AM

Regarding soaking the rice before steaming in the basket Kerry Teal shows: I imagine it would vary with the type of rice used?

Here's a video of a street vendor in Kanchanaburi, Thailand, using that basket.
http://importfood.co.../025-Dish8.html
The narrator states that the glutinous rice being steamed had been soaking for several hours. Perhaps overnight soaking might be at the far end of what is recommended but most recipes for steaming glutinous rice or sticky rice does seem to call for soaking for a few hours at least. Some say to soak for no more than x hours (less than overnight).

Here's an alternative to the basket - use a splatter guard!
http://shesimmers.co...-a-steamer.html




if you have a chinese-style steamer, then just get some dried lotus leaves 荷叶, soak/boil, then line the steamer with it, and put the pre-soaked sticky rice on the leaves, and steam away. No sticky mess on steamer, no extra equipment.
Especially if you are making Lo Mai Kai. Can never understand why some recipes/cook book authors call for lining a steamer with baking/wax paper etc when lotus leaves are already (usually) used as the wrapper.
If you are using it for another application or do not like the flavor the lotus leaves impart to the rice, you can try using banana leaves, bamboo leaves, etc.. the rice will not stick to such 'leaves'.

Dried lotus leaves can be found in chinese grocery store and are very cheap. If you have never used lotus leaves before, then take some care in handling and soaking/boiling it, as they are very brittle. But once boiled, it becomes pliable and often used as a wrapper.

#88 CKatCook

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:55 AM

Rice was a main staple in our house, since my DH has been diagnosed diabetic we had to back off the rice. But I eat it every chance I get. Usually the Thai Jasmine rice that I get in an Asian market that has an elephant on the 10 pound bag. I learned to wash rice from my friend's mom and use a rice cooker. My rice cooker broke the other day and I am heart broken!

I only had persian rice one time, a friend of mine made it for me and I will never forget it, it was wonderful. I would love to learn how to make it, as well as sticky rice that has been steamed.

I can eat rice three times a day if they let me!
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#89 Jason Perlow

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:10 AM

Rice was a main staple in our house, since my DH has been diagnosed diabetic we had to back off the rice. But I eat it every chance I get. Usually the Thai Jasmine rice that I get in an Asian market that has an elephant on the 10 pound bag. I learned to wash rice from my friend's mom and use a rice cooker. My rice cooker broke the other day and I am heart broken!

I only had persian rice one time, a friend of mine made it for me and I will never forget it, it was wonderful. I would love to learn how to make it, as well as sticky rice that has been steamed.

I can eat rice three times a day if they let me!


Just because you are diabetic doesn't mean "no rice". We cook the same rice dishes in our house but with brown rice, and higher protein to carb content in the dishes overall and portion control. There are some very good Asian type brown rices available now, including jasmines and other long grains. Also black and red rices. There are other whole grains that can be completely substituted for rice in rice dishes too.

There are even really good brown rice noodles you can buy as well.

Edited by Jason Perlow, 01 January 2013 - 11:11 AM.

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#90 CKatCook

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:18 AM

Yes, he was just newly diagnosed, so we are still in the "finding everything out" phase of things. I always made basmati, or jasmine. My rice cooker broke during a brown rice experiment. :wacko: I now need to go up to the local Asian hypermarket they have here and find the red and black rices. How does the cooking of red and black differ from the long grain whites or even brown?
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