84 replies to this topic

[dcarch]

A non-customer uses your bathroom, falls down and gets hurt.

He can sue you for big time money just the same.

dcarch

[karlos]

That big time money would have been totally offset by that $3 cup of coffee if they were a paying customer.

[Edward J]

Canadian law is just a wee bit different.

In any case I can't operate with liability insurance, and I can't get that without grab-bars on the walls, non-slip floors, pneumatic door closers, bathroom fan, and adequate lighting. Oh, and t.p. ......

[tmjst]

Both sides can be equally rude in a situation like this. The ones that walk in without speaking may well just be trying to avoid a conflict with the staff, at least until the get a little relief. And it's not rude if they don't know that you'd welcome them if they ask - it's not required everywhere, how would they know how you feel about it?

I am firmly on the side of open bathrooms in spaces that are open to the public if there's no great burden.

[Kouign Aman]

Sounds like the sign may be the way to go.

To those grossed out by the key and key-fob, why not wash the thing when you wash your hands?
Soap works on pvc pipe and key metal just as it works on your hands.
Or hold it with a piece of paper towel.

[tikidoc]

I'm in the "leave bathrooms open" camp. Many times, when I have to go, I'll use the bathroom first -- and then buy something. If the bathroom is not readily accessible, I'll simply leave and find someplace that has the bathroom open to the public. Therefore, theso business with a closed bathroom will lose a sale. In addition, if I really have to go, I don't want to carry my pastry or coffee into the bathroom - or try and eat it while being uncomfortable, visiting the bathroom after I've finished. I won't ask for a key if I haven't bought anything as I feel very self-conscious doing so (feeling like the clerk is looking at me like a freeloader if I haven't yet bought anything). Finally, I would DEFINITELY not go back to someplace that chided me for using their bathroom.

Yup, agree with all of the above. Be nice about it, and you are going to gain some business. I think more people than not will buy something after using the bathroom.

[lame username]

I always buy something, in even a McD's, if I only want to use the restroom (unless I've been to that place and ordered something many times before). But I buy it after; I wouldn't be there if it wasn't urgent. I'll buy a small soda on the way out and toss it in the trash if I'm afraid it will make me have to pee again too soon.

Edited by lame username, 10 April 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[SylviaLovegren]

I think it really depends on your neighborhood. If I'm a customer and your washroom is being used by street people who don't look very clean, I'm going to get skeeved out and prolly not use your washroom...and maybe think twice about coming to your place. A key behind the counter would be perfectly acceptable to me in that situation and make me feel much more comfy about using the facilities.

If you don't have that kind of traffic, then I'd prefer not to have to ask at the counter for a key (or code, etc.).

[Edward J]

I'm in the "leave bathrooms open" camp. Many times, when I have to go, I'll use the bathroom first -- and then buy something. If the bathroom is not readily accessible, I'll simply leave and find someplace that has the bathroom open to the public. Therefore, theso business with a closed bathroom will lose a sale. In addition, if I really have to go, I don't want to carry my pastry or coffee into the bathroom - or try and eat it while being uncomfortable, visiting the bathroom after I've finished. I won't ask for a key if I haven't bought anything as I feel very self-conscious doing so (feeling like the clerk is looking at me like a freeloader if I haven't yet bought anything). Finally, I would DEFINITELY not go back to someplace that chided me for using their bathroom.

Yup, agree with all of the above. Be nice about it, and you are going to gain some business. I think more people than not will buy something after using the bathroom.

Ehhh... Not really.

Several times in the past few years the Chief Medical Officer of the Vancouver Coastal Health Dept. has appealed to the public on various media and "educated" the public that restaurants are not indebted, coerced or otherwise made to have their washrooms available to the general public, but only to paying customers.

About 50% of the time the following situation happens: Customer walks in and needs to use the washroom and says he will make a purchase. Afterwards they will hem and haw, ask about prices, quality, origin of ingredients, etc, and then walk out. Last week was pretty typical, gentlemen does the "thing," comments that my coffee is fair trade and organic, but not bird friendly, but by the time he started comparing my prices to Starbucks, I salvaged what was left of my patience, cooly looked him the eye and asked him to put some change in the tip jar and just leave. Didn't go over to well.

Two days later, on Sat., he was back--well not exactly. He had parked his car directly in front of my entrance fastened balloons and a realator's "open house" sign on the roof of his car and walked away. My business is located in a small building with 8 commercial units on the street level and 50 condos above. Typical price for a 1 bdrm and den in our building is $280,000.00. The bathroom thingee was long forgotten, but parking in front of my place refreshed my memory. Perhaps it was the red ball,oons. Parking on our street is 1 hr, so I gave him that, and afterwards I called the city to have it ticketed. After another hour I called again to have it towed. As the tow truck driver had the car on his hoist, I called the realator's number that he had so handily proved on the "open house" sign on his car roof. He made it just in time to see his car being towed down the street.


I'd much rather sell chocolates, which is the bread and butter of my business, in fact I'd much rather go wholesale.

But I do have a business to run.

[ChrisTaylor]

Two days later, on Sat., he was back--well not exactly. He had parked his car directly in front of my entrance fastened balloons and a realator's "open house" sign on the roof of his car and walked away. My business is located in a small building with 8 commercial units on the street level and 50 condos above. Typical price for a 1 bdrm and den in our building is $280,000.00. The bathroom thingee was long forgotten, but parking in front of my place refreshed my memory. Perhaps it was the red ball,oons. Parking on our street is 1 hr, so I gave him that, and afterwards I called the city to have it ticketed. After another hour I called again to have it towed. As the tow truck driver had the car on his hoist, I called the realator's number that he had so handily proved on the "open house" sign on his car roof. He made it just in time to see his car being towed down the street.

Calling him right at that most perfect moment was a nice touch. I liked that.

[Mjx]

So, question for those of you in a position to comment: How do you feel about/react to people who come in to your establishment, make a small purchase, then ask about the loo... that being pretty clearly their objective when they walked in the door?

[lindag]

Edward,
I just hope you haven't touched off a war with this guy. He could turn out to be a real psycho.

Linda

[gfweb]

I like the idea of a key. Just be sure to make about 10 copies and put it on a gigantic fob that wont fit in a pocket.

[Panaderia Canadiense]

So, question for those of you in a position to comment: How do you feel about/react to people who come in to your establishment, make a small purchase, then ask about the loo... that being pretty clearly their objective when they walked in the door?

I've got no problem with that whatsoever. It shows a bit of consideration for the shopowner for having maintained their loo in good condition, and for providing it in the first place. I also can't tell you the number of times I've walked into a local ice-creamery, ordered a cone, used the facilities while it's being scooped (they'll hold the cone for me), and come out to collect my order. To me, making the order before using the loo is common courtesy, and I'd only do it the other way round if it was a dire emergency, which shopkeepers here seem to respect. Ecuador's also a bit more open about laughing about bathroom emergencies, rather than getting all uptight about it - if I have to skip ordering in order to speed to the loo, I'll generally make a light joke about it (gosh, you saved my life there!) when I'm out and placing my order.

Then again, Ecuador's laws clearly state that a) all shops larger than 10 square meters, and b) all food establishements regardless of size, must have at least one washroom, and that c) said washroom is for patrons of said establishments. This is generally understood by the public. We've also got pay washrooms in all public parks (10-15 cents per), so it's a mark of terrible planning if you get caught with a need for a toilet and can't find one. Facilities here are maintained sparkling clean, because inspections are at complete random whim, and you can lose your operation licence if your bathroom is even slightly disreputable. I've been in much more skeevy restaurant loos in Canada than I've found here, where even at the most humble, dirt-floor establishements the wc is tiled and scrubbed to within an inch of its life.

[bigkoiguy]

If 50% of the people using your bathroom don't buy something -- that means 50% of them DO buy something -- and probably will come back to buy more. You've gained sales for the price of a toilet flush. Yes, there will be freeloaders in ANY system - but I would not recommend punishing the good people because of a few bad incidents.

Keep in mind, you can count the number of people that used the bathroom and didn't buy things -- but I doubt you can count the number that buy things and never return because they encountered a locked bathroom or received a bad attitude from staff. If I know a business has a locked bathroom, I personally tend to avoid going there.

A locked bathroom is also a sign that the place may have some less than savory characters around. For me, when visiting a large city, it becomes a red flag - particularly during off hours -- that maybe I am not safe in that area.

[daydayxvi]

A locked bathroom is also a sign that the place may have some less than savory characters around. For me, when visiting a large city, it becomes a red flag - particularly during off hours -- that maybe I am not safe in that area.

This is the biggest consideration that I as a consumer have. That usually conjures images of a seedy gas station that reeks of people missing the mark. I am also one of those people who will buy something on the way out just because it's the decent thing to do. I realize that not everyone is decent but I seriously dislike the locked bathrooms. That just makes me feel much less than welcome. A sign is a great way to go because most people will at least buy something out of sheer decency. Your bottom line should reflect that those that don't should be more than compensated by those of us who do!

[Edward J]

I thought this thread went dead last year.

In any case I believe I have illustrated some of the challenges I face as a small independent artisan chocolate shop, and I am sure many other operators, don't face the same challenges.

Mjx, yes, I am happy to sell even small items (my cheapest is $1.25). This is why I open for business.

Bigkoiguy, currently I do not "punish" any customers. As I described in the above post, I still do not have locks installed. Some abuse this, and some appreciate it. If you look at some of the other replies in this thread, they range from talk of libel and lawsuit, to insistence that I provide his service--no ifs or buts. It was only Panaderia Canadiese that used the word "respect". That's all I want.

[bigkoiguy]

Edward - I didn't mean to imply that you are rude to your customers, but was talking generally as I have run into these type businesses elsewhere.

My viewpoint is this - some people spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on advertising or other incentives to draw people into their shop. Your bathroom is doing this for almost nothing - and some of these drop ins, once exposed to your shop, might become future repeat customers. Once they are there and you have their attention, it is up to you to provide an experience that entices them to shell out a few bucks and try your products. Tolerating the disrespectful, unfortunately, is going to be a part of this.

Edited by bigkoiguy, 11 April 2012 - 09:48 PM.

[ambra]

Glad you don't have a key. It not only bothers me to touch the key, but also that the person often handing me the key handles my food.

[Qwerty]

Ehhh... Not really.

Several times in the past few years the Chief Medical Officer of the Vancouver Coastal Health Dept. has appealed to the public on various media and "educated" the public that restaurants are not indebted, coerced or otherwise made to have their washrooms available to the general public, but only to paying customers.

About 50% of the time the following situation happens: Customer walks in and needs to use the washroom and says he will make a purchase. Afterwards they will hem and haw, ask about prices, quality, origin of ingredients, etc, and then walk out. Last week was pretty typical, gentlemen does the "thing," comments that my coffee is fair trade and organic, but not bird friendly, but by the time he started comparing my prices to Starbucks, I salvaged what was left of my patience, cooly looked him the eye and asked him to put some change in the tip jar and just leave. Didn't go over to well.

Two days later, on Sat., he was back--well not exactly. He had parked his car directly in front of my entrance fastened balloons and a realator's "open house" sign on the roof of his car and walked away. My business is located in a small building with 8 commercial units on the street level and 50 condos above. Typical price for a 1 bdrm and den in our building is $280,000.00. The bathroom thingee was long forgotten, but parking in front of my place refreshed my memory. Perhaps it was the red ball,oons. Parking on our street is 1 hr, so I gave him that, and afterwards I called the city to have it ticketed. After another hour I called again to have it towed. As the tow truck driver had the car on his hoist, I called the realator's number that he had so handily proved on the "open house" sign on his car roof. He made it just in time to see his car being towed down the street.


I'd much rather sell chocolates, which is the bread and butter of my business, in fact I'd much rather go wholesale.

But I do have a business to run.

So, let me get this straight. A guy came into your store to use the bathroom, pretended to be interested in a coffee, but then just left without buying one. And you somehow thought it was, what...funny? cool? your civic duty? revenge? to call and have this guy's car ticketed and towed?

This guy, who obviously does business in your building. Sounds like he sells real estate to people that live ABOVE your business. He is in a position to recommend it to people who are literally within a minute or two walk of your front door, on a daily basis, will walk by your store probably twice a day, and you do that to him.

Sounds like a smart business move. Bet that felt good, get that A-hole who had the audacity to use your bathroom. You certainly aren't over-reacting. Thumbs up, sir.

IMO, you might want to take a look at why this bothers you. Seriously. If you are so pissed off at people for using your bathroom that you somehow feel good about "getting back" at them then I feel sorry for you. If I were you, I would re-prioritize my thinking about it, and look at every person who walks in your door as a potential customer, and stop worrying about if they use the bathroom or not. Even if they don't buy something right then, they might remember you next time they are in the neighborhood and stop by for something. Especially if your store is nice, the display's look yummy, and yeah, even the bathroom is clean. Maybe in a week or two they want/need to buy a box of chocolates for a friend, and they remember how delicious looking yours looked in the display. I mean, I'm assuming your business isn't doing so well that you can afford to alienate a bunch of potential customers.

How can food traffic be bad?

[Edward J]

Love the attitude.

Guy was a real estate agent. Made a nice little commission on a 1/4 million condo within 2 days. But that's not the point. He knew that washrooms were for customer use only, but was too cheap to buy something. O.K. I can live with that, but then to go on, ask stupid questions if my coffee is bird friendly as well as fair trade is a bit rich, again, I can live with that too, but then comparing prices to Starbucks went too far. He was obviously looking for a way to weasel out of paying for a 2 buck coffee and wasting a lot of time doing it. Do you think he would actually come back? He knew he embarassed himself and made himself look like a cheap a-hole. Do you actually think he would have the kahunas to come back and buy something at a latter date? It's a question I'm pretty sure you won't answer.


If someone parks their vehicle underneath a sign that states 1 hr parking and camps out for a whole afternoon, it is their business. Some of the stupidist things I've seen are very angry people arguing with traffic cops or tow truck drivers about parking signs. Many merchants along the street call the city to ticket when cars are camped out for whole afternoons--it really screws up the parking for other customers. I did not identify myself when I called him up, just told him his car was being towed.

[munchymom]

It sounds to me like you should consider a line of work that doesn't involve contact with the public. Human beings can be so annoying, with their selfishness and lack of consideration. But the rage you've worked yourself up into over this real estate guy, you're like Basil Fawlty. You know how you could have avoided the whole annoying conversation about the fair trade coffee and all that? You could have just let him use your bathroom. He sure as heck isn't going to come back now.

[Mjx]

Would someone please remind me why restaurants or shops should be obligated to provide loos to the public?

[munchymom]

It's not so much that it's an obligation. It's that if you choose to run a business that is open to the public, you have to realize that people are annoying, and be able to roll with it. One of the most annoying things about customer service is that you have to be nice to people even when they're not putting money in your hand right that second. If I had a competing business, I'd let people use the bathroom no questions asked. What comes around goes around.

[Zeemanb]

The only thing I can think of here is the time, way back in Batali's Po days, when Mario didn't think anyone was in the bathroom and began angrily forcing open the stubborn (locked) door while my mother was in there. Good times.

[Mjx]

It's not so much that it's an obligation. It's that if you choose to run a business that is open to the public, you have to realize that people are annoying, and be able to roll with it. One of the most annoying things about customer service is that you have to be nice to people even when they're not putting money in your hand right that second. If I had a competing business, I'd let people use the bathroom no questions asked. What comes around goes around.

Wait, if being open to the public means you should be expected to allow the public to use your facilites, why aren't more people going into government offices, hospitals, physician's offices, and so on, to use the loo?

My asking this goes pack to the opening post in this topic, rather than more recent ones, because it seems to me that something has been lost sight of, here. Accepting that people are annoying doesn't mean that a restaurant or shop owner should be expected to allow the public to use the loo; it's a nice touch, a courtesy. But saying no seems perfectly reasonable to me (barring evident emergencies).

[bigkoiguy]

MJX: I think your question is a valid one. Businesses obviously have absolutely no obligation to provide free accomodations to the public; it is private property after all. Restaurants have the same rights as lawyers, hospitals, etc.

Nonetheless, if I were by a hospital and needed to use the bathroom, I would. Most hospitals do have open restrooms. Other than my work as a volunteer EMT, I rarely find myself in or near a hospital though - so this situation rarely presents itself.

I would not hesitate to ask to use a government office bathroom - and have done so.

If a lawyers office was the only thing around and I had an emergency, I would walk in an politely ask. If it were a non-emergency, I would not -- because there would be no chance I would ever do business there.

There is a very strong chance, however, that I would --- and could -- buy something from a chocolate or coffee shop, essentially thanking them for being courteous to the public. In so doing, they get to introduce me to their business. Hopefully, I will like it and return!

[munchymom]

My asking this goes pack to the opening post in this topic, rather than more recent ones, because it seems to me that something has been lost sight of, here. Accepting that people are annoying doesn't mean that a restaurant or shop owner should be expected to allow the public to use the loo; it's a nice touch, a courtesy. But saying no seems perfectly reasonable to me (barring evident emergencies).

I don't disagree. I just think that being nice and courteous to potential customers - even if they don't buy anything that day - isn't a bad idea.

[Mjx]

. . . . I just think that being nice and courteous to potential customers - even if they don't buy anything that day - isn't a bad idea.

Fair enough. But it is certainly possible to nicely and politely decline to permit the public to use the loo; I've been to a few places where I was told 'I'm really sorry, but it's for staff only', and that was just not a huge deal.

[Edward J]

It sounds to me like you should consider a line of work that doesn't involve contact with the public. Human beings can be so annoying, with their selfishness and lack of consideration. But the rage you've worked yourself up into over this real estate guy, you're like Basil Fawlty. You know how you could have avoided the whole annoying conversation about the fair trade coffee and all that? You could have just let him use your bathroom. He sure as heck isn't going to come back now.

No, no rage.

Customer came out of the bathroom and proceeded to the counter to ask about coffee--his choice, not mine. I am obliged to answer qeustions about my producsts, which I did. If I didn't, I would be considered "rude", even though it was obvious he wanted to weasel out of a situation--which he did. Pehaps I was being rude when I suggested to "just put some change in the tip jar and go"? Or was it a segway to end an embarassing situation?

But he DID come back, only to park in front of my business--on a Saturday, 2 days later. From the time he parked to tire marking to ticketing to towing was over 4 hrs, and he parked directly under a 1 hr parking sign. Was I being nasty? Rude? Perhaps the city is, imposing parking restrictions on busy strets with all the ticketing an towing?


I'm not upset about his, but only want to illustrate what happens "on the other side of the cash register". I had no idea it would garner so many responses, but am glad it does.