52 replies to this topic

[chefzadi]

I went to the library yesterday to check out Paula Wolfert's "The Cooking of the Mediterranean"

If one thinks of the Eastern Mediterranean as an arc, Turkey is the Keystone, a country that not only synthesized the cooking styles of the many nations it conquered but also reinterpreted and then exported these ideas to the farthest reaches of the greater Mediterranean.

I thought it might be an interesting exercise for me (I hope others join in) to engage in a comparative discoure of cusines in the countries of this forum and the surrounding countries.

I've only taken a quick look at the dishes, but there are many that I can recgonize as having an Algerian variation.

(Yes, I know that Turkey wants to be part of the EU. But Turkish cusine and culture overlaps much more with the Middle East than it does with European. I can start this topic in the elsewhere in Europe forum and it will probably go nowhere).

Edited by chefzadi, 10 April 2005 - 09:08 PM.

[Hector]

For many Europeans.. Turkey is Middle Eastern by it's essence. but that's just prejuidices I think.. Turkey is really european in someplaces, especially in western Turkey.

I think turkish cuisine is mostly close related to Greek even though Greeks and Turks is often not so keen to agree on their cultural similarities due to age old conflicts.

Some dishes in Greece and Turkiey is basicly all the same.
Mostly when it comes to the Mezzes or the Mezedes eg. the apetizers which is basicly the same; with the shrimps, the white cheese, the pies, the seafood, the use of yogurt, the grilled lamb, the abundance of vegetable dishes with courgettes, aubergines, tomatoes, peppers, potatoes, etcetra.
(many turkish vegetable dishes did I recognise when I was travelling in Tunisia though)

The Turks make liquorice-spirit exactly the same way as the greeks, and drink it even though they are moslem.

Even the desserts are so simillar: the marmelade candies, the many dishes with honey and nuts. Noodles with nuts and honey, dough with honey and nuts, yogurt with honey and nuts, etcetra,

Where these countries differ is when you see outside influences on the cooking, in eastern turkey you can enjoy kibbeh and dishes with bulgur along with your grilled lamb, and off course Persian influnenced Fesenjan: fowl cooked with pomegranate and walnuts. In greece there's off course the addition of wine and pork to the cooking, sometimes even pasta, which wouldn't be a
choice for a turk that would rather eat some pita.
but the countries are more simillar than you might think in the ways of cooking...

Edited by Hector, 11 April 2005 - 08:43 AM.

[chefzadi]

Even the desserts are so simillar: the marmelade candies, the many dishes with honey and nuts. Noodles with nuts and honey, dough with honey and nuts, yogurt with honey and nuts, etcetra,

This is a North African Arab influence in Turkish cuisine. Remember the Saracens were North African Arabs who introduced semolina pasta to Sicily before the Turks were ever in Algeria. And the Sicilians and Algerians have sweet dishes made from pasta like the one you describe.

The Turks make liquorice-spirit exactly the same way as the greeks, and drink it even though they are moslem.

This spirit is found throughout the Med. I think the origins are Greek, someone will correct me if I am wrong.

[Smithy]

I'm learning so much more about history and geography through this forum than I ever bothered to learn in school. Then again, in school I didn't care so much about food, so maybe this entry into the topic wouldn't have helped either.

The little Turkish food I've had has reminded me strongly of Greek food, and until I opened the cookbooks I thought that was the main influence. However, after I started getting interested in Middle Eastern cookery (by way of Egypt), and after I started collecting cookbooks with a vengeance, I picked up a couple of Turkish cookbooks. Lo and behold, I recognize a lot of those names - and dishes - from Egypt and other Arabic countries.

I'll be interested in seeing what more knowledgable people have to say about this. All I can might be able to contribute is from my cookbooks, and that's second-hand knowledge at best.

[Hector]

Even the desserts are so simillar: the marmelade candies, the many dishes with honey and nuts. Noodles with nuts and honey, dough with honey and nuts, yogurt with honey and nuts, etcetra,

This is a North African Arab influence in Turkish cuisine. Remember the Saracens were North African Arabs who introduced semolina pasta to Sicily before the Turks were ever in Algeria. And the Sicilians and Algerians have sweet dishes made from pasta like the one you describe.

The Turks make liquorice-spirit exactly the same way as the greeks, and drink it even though they are moslem.

This spirit is found throughout the Med. I think the origins are Greek, someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Yes I remember.. Nuts and honey seems to have the leading part in the desserts throughout the middle east, but I'm not sure of the origins of this.

If you look into the antique Roman cookbook, "De Cucinera": which is the Roman cook Apicius wrote down most Antique Roman recipes which has been saved to this day can be found.
You'll find a cake with antique Greek origins, which is a little uncorfotably called "placenta" (anyone for "placenta" tonight?).
This cake was consisting of honey, a varity of nuts, sesame seeds and an antique dough (made with flour and water) in layers.
It's almost exactly like todays greek or turkish Baklava cake but without any lemon or sugary brine which can be added today. The similarity is very striking.
It was except eaten as a snack for the Roman or Greek nobility, appearently used often as a gift or sacrifice to greek gods at various temples.

The Algerians too have sweet pasta dishes? I had no idea.. you learn something everyday.
Would be nice with a recipe.

Edited by Hector, 12 April 2005 - 03:10 PM.

[Behemoth]

The Turks make liquorice-spirit exactly the same way as the greeks, and drink it even though they are moslem.

This spirit is found throughout the Med. I think the origins are Greek, someone will correct me if I am wrong.

I would love to get my hands on a book that details the history of alcohol. What a fascinating subject. From what I have read, it seems fairly likely arabs first came up with the process of distilling alcohol, in their alchemy (another arabic word, heh) experiments. Just looking up etymologies in the dictionary (the great pastime of the chronic procrastinator), alcohol = al kohl = the powder of antimony. Cultural bias aside , I have read that licorice spirits really came to greece and turkey from the east. Again, going on the etymology, raki/raka would have certainly come from arak, which means "sweat" in Arabic -- a reference to the condensation that happens during the process of distillation.

It would also be interesting to try and trace old trade routes via the local cuisines. You can really see the influence in venetian cooking I think (for example).

(edited because the brain doesn't know what the typing hand is doing...)

Edited by Behemoth, 12 April 2005 - 04:22 PM.

[chefzadi]

I also checked out one of Clifford Wright's books. The one on Sicilian cuisine and Arab influences. My wife does the academic research for me. I have some help from a few egullet members as well.

I'll be posting about that book, later today or tomorrow.

[Smithy]

Beer was well-known in Egypt before there was any Arabic influence. I assume you're just referring to spirits, i.e. strong alcohol.

My favorite chemistry professor used to say that humans figured out how to make alcohol long before they figured out how to make soap, and that that fact said a lot about the human race.

[Behemoth]

Beer was well-known in Egypt before there was any Arabic influence.  I assume you're just referring to spirits, i.e. strong alcohol.

Exactly...I was just referring to distilled stuff. I think wine also existed before the arab renaissance -- come to think of it, Arabs took to chemistry and the sciences after Islam, but of course the Koran references wine. Anyway, I remember reading somewhere that the Romans planted most of the original grape vines in europe and the middle east?

My favorite chemistry professor used to say that humans figured out how to make alcohol long before they figured out how to make soap, and that that fact said a lot about the human race.   

For once the human race had their priorities straight!

[touaregsand]

Exactly...I was just referring to distilled stuff. I think wine also existed before the arab renaissance -- come to think of it, Arabs took to chemistry and the sciences after Islam, but of course the Koran references wine. Anyway, I remember reading somewhere that the Romans planted most of the original grape vines in europe and the middle east?

The also planted vineyards in North Africa. This website seems informative. (no I do not conduct most of my research on the web. )

[chefzadi]

The Algerians too have sweet pasta dishes? I had no idea.. you learn something everyday.

Would be nice with a recipe.

Yes, the Turks got it from us. Just in case that wasn't clear upthread.

I'll post a recipe in the Beautiful Algeria thread.

At the moment my wife is also researching Moorish and Spanish cooking. She's putting together a timeline from as many sources as she can find which will be verified by "experts" ( a few are egullet members and professional researchers).

[chefzadi]

Just looking up etymologies in the dictionary (the great pastime of the chronic procrastinator), alcohol = al kohl = the powder of antimony. Cultural bias aside wink.gif, I have read that licorice spirits really came to greece and turkey from the east. Again, going on the etymology, raki/raka would have certainly come from arak, which means "sweat" in Arabic -- a reference to the condensation that happens during the process of distillation.

Of course I don't have a cultural bias , but everything I've read supports your statements.

[Hector]

The Turks make liquorice-spirit exactly the same way as the greeks, and drink it even though they are moslem.

This spirit is found throughout the Med. I think the origins are Greek, someone will correct me if I am wrong.

I would love to get my hands on a book that details the history of alcohol. What a fascinating subject. From what I have read, it seems fairly likely arabs first came up with the process of distilling alcohol, in their alchemy (another arabic word, heh) experiments. Just looking up etymologies in the dictionary (the great pastime of the chronic procrastinator), alcohol = al kohl = the powder of antimony. Cultural bias aside , I have read that licorice spirits really came to greece and turkey from the east. Again, going on the etymology, raki/raka would have certainly come from arak, which means "sweat" in Arabic -- a reference to the condensation that happens during the process of distillation.

In Sweden we make a kind of booze called Arrack which is a distillate of fermented sugar cane juice and fermented Javanese rice - which creates a sharp smoky rummy spirit. It comes from a time when swedish sailors where sent to Indonesia and China to trade with spices. Might there be an Arak/Raki name connection?
Swedish cooking is influenced by turkish too. We even had a small population of turkish immigrant traders in the 18th century. Nuts, raisins and spices was bought to sweden from turkey (which was allied with Sweden since the 1400s against the russians). And we even make our own kind of Dolma, which is proved to has comed from a Swedish kings long time residency in Constantinople in the 18th century.

Edited by Hector, 14 April 2005 - 08:11 AM.

[Behemoth]

In Sweden we make a kind of booze called Arrack which  is a distillate of fermented sugar cane juice and fermented Javanese rice - which creates a sharp smoky rummy spirit. It comes from a time when swedish sailors where sent to Indonesia and China to trade with spices. Might there be an Arak/Raki name connection?
Swedish cooking is influenced by turkish too. We even had a small population of turkish immigrant traders in the 18th century. Nuts, raisins and spices was bought to sweden from turkey (which was allied with Sweden since the 1400s against the russians). And we even make our own kind of Dolma, which is proved to has comed from a Swedish kings long time residency in Constantinople in the 18th century.

That is really interesting. I definitely did not know that.

In an issue of the Economist dated Dec. 20, 2003, they mention various distilled liquors with the name Arak existing in Mongolia (distilled from fermented mare's milk) Goa, Sri Lanka and Bali (distilled from sap of flowering coconuts) Tamils (sugarcane) Indonesians (rice wine) Iran ("anything they can get their hands on".) It seems the process was probably exported along with the term. Interesting that it crossed back west from Indonesia to Sweden!

[Adam Balic]

According to the OED, "Arak" (and variations) comes from the Arabic araq which means juice or sweat, in terms of the alcohlic drink, possibly araq-at-tamr which is 'juice of dates.

There are lots of very early English references, I guess the swedish sailors brought back the idea for the drink?

[touaregsand]

From this site. (Most of the information on the page corresponds to what I've studied textually).

The development of the still with cooled collector — necessary for the distillation of spirits — was an invention of Islamic alchemists in the 8th or 9th centuries. In particular, Geber (Jabir Ibn Hayyan, 721–815) invented the alembic still, from which he observed heated wine released a flammable vapor, which he described as "of little use, but of great importance to science". Not much later Al-Razi (864–930) described the distillation of alcohol and its use in medicine.

Aniseed would have been known to the alchemists. The evidence is there to support the statement that Arak and the distillation of spirits are Arab in origin.

n an issue of the Economist dated Dec. 20, 2003, they mention various distilled liquors with the name Arak existing in Mongolia (distilled from fermented mare's milk)

Mongolian here (well sort of). This map shows the Mongolian empire at it's height in the 1200's. I think "arak" in Mongolia is a borrowed term from their long ago contact with parts of the Middle East. Exported as you say.

In Sweden we make a kind of booze called Arrack which  is a distillate of fermented sugar cane juice and fermented Javanese rice - which creates a sharp smoky rummy spirit. It comes from a time when swedish sailors where sent to Indonesia and China to trade with spices.

I think there is an etymological link that we can be found somewhere in the history of empires, trade routes, the spread of Islam...

Edited by touaregsand, 14 April 2005 - 12:35 PM.

[chefzadi]

Hummus with Meat Sauce

In Algeria this would be called Hummus b'hem. We would not add tahini though.

Baba Ghanoush

Again no tahini. The names would vary regional. Badenjal is egglplant.

Tandir Breads

These would be found in Algeria. I already listed some breads in my Beautiful Algeria
thread.

Spicy Eastern Mediterranean Pizza with Meat

Very similar to a version of Algerian Coca

Za'atar Pie

Yes.

Mrs. Bezjian's Swiss Chard and Tahini Beureks

Yes, but we wouldn't add tahinia or sesame seeds. Instead of walnuts, pine nuts. They would be called "Boureks" (I can't remember what we call swiss chard)

.......more later....

[touaregsand]

In an issue of the Economist dated Dec. 20, 2003, they mention various distilled liquors with the name Arak existing in Mongolia (distilled from fermented mare's milk)

I've been thinking about this. Airag, which is what I remember fermented mare's milk being called, isn't distilled. Arkhi is freeze distilled mare's milk (sometimes referred to as Mongolian Vodka), this method is thought to go back to the 600's. So much for the Arab link to Mongolian "Arak"...

[Behemoth]

In an issue of the Economist dated Dec. 20, 2003, they mention various distilled liquors with the name Arak existing in Mongolia (distilled from fermented mare's milk)

I've been thinking about this. Airag, which is what I remember fermented mare's milk being called, isn't distilled. Arkhi is freeze distilled mare's milk (sometimes referred to as Mongolian Vodka), this method is thought to go back to the 600's. So much for the Arab link to Mongolian "Arak"...

What is "freeze distilled"?

[touaregsand]

What is "freeze distilled"?

The fermented mare's milk is partially frozen, then frozen material is removed. Very simply put it has to do with the different freezing points of milk solids, water and alcohol. The process can be repeated up to a point.

[Wolfert]

Swiss Chard has a lovely name in North Africa: silk.

[Behemoth]

Swiss Chard has a lovely name in North Africa: silk.

It's the same in Levantine Arabic. Cute, I never thought of that.

[Pan]

In Sweden we make a kind of booze called Arrack which  is a distillate of fermented sugar cane juice and fermented Javanese rice - which creates a sharp smoky rummy spirit. It comes from a time when swedish sailors where sent to Indonesia and China to trade with spices. Might there be an Arak/Raki name connection?[...]

In Malay/Indonesian, arak is the generic word for liquor as opposed to bir and wain. Bir and wain are of course from English, and arak is from Arabic, so there you have it.

Touaregsand, I think the words airag and arak seem too similar, given that they both describe alcoholic drinks, to not be somehow related etymologically, but the question is How?

[touaregsand]

Does anyone know when the word "Arrak" was first used by Arabs? The root meaning? That would help. Was it before or after the Mongols invaded parts of the Middle East?

The Still was developed in the 8th or 9th century. The Arabs used distilled alcohol for medicinal purposes and aniseed would have been known to them. So was it called Arrak then?

The Mongols knew Airag centuries before Chingis Khan.

I'm not convinced the connection is more than aural.

EDIT: We can go the other way, and ask when the Mongolians started using the word airag. But I don't know if they would have changed the name of a drink they had known for centuries because of contact with Arabs. The Mongols had the world's largest empire, but they weren't much on absorbing from cultures or contributing to them. They were exporters at best.

Edited by touaregsand, 14 April 2005 - 07:06 PM.

[Adam Balic]

I can't help you with that exact question, but it would be interesting to know. I think that the issue is complicated by the fact that it wasn't one way traffic, some of the pasta in the far east are throught to have Persian roots via the Arabs and Mongols.

[Smithy]

Swiss Chard has a lovely name in North Africa: silk.

It's the same in Levantine Arabic. Cute, I never thought of that.

In Egypt, I've learned that "silk" means "wire". Wouldn't that be confusing in the souk?

[chefzadi]

Even the desserts are so simillar: the marmelade candies, the many dishes with honey and nuts. Noodles with nuts and honey, dough with honey and nuts, yogurt with honey and nuts, etcetra,

This is a North African Arab influence in Turkish cuisine. Remember the Saracens were North African Arabs who introduced semolina pasta to Sicily before the Turks were ever in Algeria. And the Sicilians and Algerians have sweet dishes made from pasta like the one you describe.

The Turks make liquorice-spirit exactly the same way as the greeks, and drink it even though they are moslem.

This spirit is found throughout the Med. I think the origins are Greek, someone will correct me if I am wrong.

I meant, I DON'T think the origins are Greek. Yikes. Apologies for the typo.

Also the Turks call it Raki. They have a their own blend or version of Arrak and it is widely acknowledged by the Turks (even on state sponsored literature) that raki is derived from Arabic Arrak.

Edited by chefzadi, 15 April 2005 - 09:39 PM.

[Behemoth]

I meant, I DON'T think the origins are Greek. Yikes. Apologies for the typo.

It's a good thing you made the typo, we got a really interesting thread going here

[Mabelline]

I am really interested in what influences you feel are leftover from the Persian Empire. I just got through with an interesting book about the newest discoveries in archaeology, which are changing a load of perceptions. Sometimes I think this whole world is one big ole mongrel amalgam that has traditions so old that they are lost.

[archestratus]

I noticed above that the anise-based Arab and Turkish liqueur know as arak or raki is said to derive from the Arabic word for "perspiration."

Although that is one of the meanings of the Arabic word ('araq) the proper meaning of the word 'araq in this case, actually 'irq, is "root or stem of a plant" ['irq] and in fact and specifically "'irq sus" - licorice root. The earliest use of the word that I am familiar with comes from Ibn al-Baytar (1197-1228) who was the foremost medieval Ismlamic botanist and systematizer of pharmacological knoweldge.