609 replies to this topic

[David Santucci]

I think bitters would work quite nicely here, as long as you have the right ones.

So, maybe, 2/3 Gin, 1/6 Lillet, 1/6 Cointreau, with an orange peel squeezed over to make up for the lost orange flavor, an a pinch of Cinchona?

There are surely many good drinks that could be made with these ingredients, in varying proportions, with and without bitters. I am curious to try Lillet in place of Dry Vermouth in the Hong Kong Cocktail, perhaps reducing the sugar a bit.

What I liked about the Campden was how the delicate-fruity-floral flavors played together. Going to 4:1 Gin to Lillet would change the drink a lot. As I said above, I actually liked it with a little more Lillet. In any case, drop the amount of Triple Sec and this is a drink worth experimenting with.

Pointing up Lillet by adding Cinchona bark, now that sounds interesting. I am no fan of the Vesper, at least not the incarnations I have tried so far. My wife described it as a "girly Martini", which sounds about right to me.

[eje]

[...]
Pointing up Lillet by adding Cinchona bark, now that sounds interesting. I am no fan of the Vesper, at least not the incarnations I have tried so far. My wife described it as a "girly Martini", which sounds about right to me.

Shhh! Don't tell James Bond!

[eje]

Capetown Cocktail

1 Dash Angostura Bitters
3 Dashes Curacao (Senior Curacao of Curacao)
1/2 Caperitif (1 1/2 oz Dubonnet Blanc)
1/2 Canadian Club Whisky (1 1/2 40 Creek Barrel Select)

Stir well and strain into cocktail glass. Lemon peel on top.

Initially the flavor of the Dubonnet seemed a bit strong. Grew on me though, and as I drank it I started to appreciate the interplay of the Dubonnet, bitters, curacao and lemon. By the time I finished, I was ready for another. Hallmark of a fine cocktail, I believe.

[eje]

Carrol Cocktail

2/3 Brandy (2 oz Pierre Ferrand Ambre)
1/2 Italian Vermouth (1 oz Carpano Antica)

Stir well and strain into cocktail glass. Add a pickled walnut or onion.

Enjoyed this more than I thought I would.

It's not quite as enjoyable as the "Brandy Special" or "Brandy Vermouth" cocktail. Still more enjoyable than you would think, with a two ingredient cocktail.

Oddly, I had some pickled walnuts in the refrigerator. I cut it in half, since it was a bit big, and frankly, expensive. Tasty. Kind of blows the cocktail out of the water, though.

Reminds me a bit of The Bottle Gang's Antipasto Martini.

[eje]

Caruso Cocktail

1/3 Dry Gin (1 oz Boodles gin)
1/3 French Vermouth (3/4 oz Noilly Prat Dry)
1/3 Green Creme de Menthe (1/2 oz Brizard Creme de Menthe)

Shake (stir - eje) well and strain into cocktail glass.

I did slightly adjust the proportions here.

Still, I expected to really dislike this drink.

Oddly, I didn't, and ended up finishing it.

Living in San Francisco, Enrico Caruso and the 1906 earthquake are intertwined.

I found this interesting piece of history:

Enrico Caruso and the 1906 Earthquake

Enrico Caruso (1873 - 1921) is considered by many music lovers to be the greatest operatic tenor of all time. He was on tour in San Francisco during the Great Earthquake, and appeared in Carmen at the Mission Opera House a few hours before the disaster.

[eje]

Casino Cocktail

2 Dashes Maraschino (Luxardo)
2 Dashes Orange Bitters (generous couple splashes Regan's Orange Bitters)
2 Dashes Lemon Juice (Juice 1/8 lemon)
1 Glass Old Tom Gin (2 oz Junipero Gin and a dash simple)

Stir well and add cherry.

Skipped Cherry and am quite cheery about it.

A very oddly flavored cocktail and one of the better features of orange bitters I've tried.

[eje]

Castle Dip Cocktail

1/2 Apple Brandy (1 oz Laird's Bonded Apple Brandy)
1/2 White Creme de Menthe (1 oz Brizard Creme de Menthe)
3 Dashes Absinthe (1/2 barspoon Verte de Fougerolles Absinthe)

Shake (stir - eje) well and strain into cocktail glass.

An interesting combination of flavors. Very much a dessert cocktail, however.

[eje]

Cats-Eye Cocktail (6 people)

1/2 Glass Fresh Lemonade (1/4 oz Lemon Juice, 1/2 teaspoon sugar)
1/2 Glass Water
2 Glasses Gin (1 oz Boodles Gin)
1 Dessertspoonful Kirsch (Dash Trimbach Kirsch)
1/2 Glass Cointreau (1/4 oz Cointreau)
Not quite 2 Glasses French Vermouth (Not quite 1 oz Noilly Prat Dry)

Shake well and strain into cocktail glasses. Serve with an olive.

Skipped the olive.

A tasty cocktail. A bit like an Aviation crossed with a Martini.

[thirtyoneknots]

I was going to put this in the 'what did you drink today' thread, but I decided it was more relevant here:

Had a bottle of Cristlino Brut Cava open this evening making French 75's and decided to do a bit of messing around with the Alfonso Special. Last October, whilst eating my birthday dinner at a wonderful seafood restaraunt in Houston, I saw the following poster:

Bitter Secrestat

Obviously a reproduction, but fun anyway. What I came to realise, after further research, was that Secrestat was probably not a cocktail bitter as we think of it, but more like a bitter absinthe-a-like, to borrow Mr. Ellestad's phrase. The first time I tried an Alphonso, using the recipe from some book or the other, more or less similar to what was used her, I don't recall being terribly impressed by it. Pleasant, but somewhat pedestrian, was my sentiment at the time. I now attribute this in large part to my domestic Dubonnet (is there any being imported currently?), but I figured I'd mess with the bitters a bit. Tonight I tried the following variations:

sugar cube
3 dashes bitter (one had 2 of Jade Edouard and 1 of Angostura, the other was swapped)
scant jigger domestic Dubonnet
top with Cristalino Brut
lemon twist

built in a flute.

The Girlfriend and I agreed that the difference in a dash of Angostura vs Absinthe made a significant difference in the drink, what could not agree on was which one was better. To my taste, however, each was much more interesting than using Angostura alone. (In the interest of science I probably should have mad one with just that to compare side by side, but by then the Cava and Dubonnet were both running low).

If using pastis, I would probably do 2 dashes Angostura to 1 dash pastis, to offset the sweetness.

In this guise, a fantastic drink, well worth featuring to guests (or maybe I have a better appreciation for it now).

-Andy

[drcocktail]

Hi all, at Erik's request I'm poking my head in here; something I don't do nearly often enough!

I have a full Secrestat Bitters.

It WAS an aperitif bitters. I have not sampled it, but it likely conforms to the general characteristics of French Amers. In fact it was a special subcategory of aperitif bitters known (as thirtyoneknots' poster link clearly shows) as Gentiane(s).

This means the bitter constituent in it was gentian, while the bittering agent in absinthe was wormwood and the bitter component in all quinquinas (Dubonnet, Byrrh, Cap Corse, St. Raphael) was quinine.

Of course, Secrestat, like Angostura (but not like Peychaud) was the name of a company, not just a product, and Secrestat made an absinthe (and later an absinthe substitute - pictured here.) as well as the once-famous Tonicola, but neither were the iconic bitters. They also made a whole range of liqueurs not unlike Bardinet or Cointreau back in the day.

It bears noting that absinthe itself was an aperitif bitters, but Secrestat was more akin to Amer Picon and even to Suze than to absinthe. That the Secrestat COMPANY once made an absinthe and later an absinthe substitute explains the absinthe spoon neatly, but the fact that the Robys poster is unquestionably showing Secrestat Bitters being poured over the slotted spoon crowned with a sugar cube suggests that they were making a contention that the old absinthe technique suited gentianes as well.

This was not a commonly held belief.

Gentianes are rather uncommon outside of France, but here is one brand and here is another.

Hugs and toasts to all,
--Doc.

[eje]

Thanks for stopping by, Doc!

The funny thing about thirtyoneknots post, was that I came to the exact same conclusion about a year ago after seeing this image in the banner on the Cocktaildb site:

Secrestat Absinthe Spoon

Though, if yer still around, on a related note, when cocktail recipes call for "Absinthe Bitters" do you (or anyone else) know if they mean plain old Absinthe, or was there a class of bitters flavored similarly to Absinthe?

[thirtyoneknots]

Hi all, at Erik's request I'm poking my head in here; something I don't do nearly often enough!

I have a full Secrestat Bitters.

It WAS an aperitif bitters. I have not sampled it, but it likely conforms to the general characteristics of French Amers. In fact it was a special subcategory of aperitif bitters known (as thirtyoneknots' poster link clearly shows) as Gentiane(s).

This means the bitter constituent in it was gentian, while the bittering agent in absinthe was wormwood and the bitter component in all quinquinas (Dubonnet, Byrrh, Cap Corse, St. Raphael) was quinine.

Of course, Secrestat, like Angostura (but not like Peychaud) was the name of a company, not just a product, and Secrestat made an absinthe (and later an absinthe substitute - pictured here.) as well as the once-famous Tonicola, but neither were the iconic bitters. They also made a whole range of liqueurs not unlike Bardinet or Cointreau back in the day.

It bears noting that absinthe itself was an aperitif bitters, but Secrestat was more akin to Amer Picon and even to Suze than to absinthe. That the Secrestat COMPANY once made an absinthe and later an absinthe substitute explains the absinthe spoon neatly, but the fact that the Robys poster is unquestionably showing Secrestat Bitters being poured over the slotted spoon crowned with a sugar cube suggests that they were making a contention that the old absinthe technique suited gentianes as well.

This was not a commonly held belief.

Gentianes are rather uncommon outside of France, but here is one brand and here is another.

Hugs and toasts to all,
--Doc.

Oh my, he IS alive! :-P

Interesting information about Secrestat. What I'm now thinking is that Peychaud's might be an even more appropriate substitution, since it is far milder (nearly potable, I would say) and I seem to recall gentian being listed in suspected ingredient in Peychaud's (and Angostura as well?). What I now wonder is if gentianes are essentially more dilute versions of what we think of as aromatic cocktail bitters. Anyways guess I'll have to try it again some other time with Peychauds, or one of these others. Thanks for the information Doc, please don't be a stranger on the message boards :)

-Andy

[drcocktail]

Well, I am not inclined to necessarily suppose Secrestat Bitters had any predominant anis component. No other gentianes do. Which is not to say that Peychaud (and yes, Angostura too) mightn't use gentian as theiir primary bitter agent, it is just to say that, as with quinquinas, the gentiane style has great similarities between brands. I say "as with quinquinas" so let me illustrate that parallel: Dubonnet, Byrrh, St. Raphael...see? All their own products and formulae, but all within a rather tight spectrum. So it is with gentianes, which, like Suze, tend to be more typified with a definite detectable gentian FLAVOR as well as bitterness.

On the other hand, lots of products use gentian that are NOT gentianes, and you mentioned some. Angostura and Regan's #6 immediately spring to MY mind.

Now as to whether simply diluting aromatic bitters would turn them into aperitif bitters, well....kudos, man. That is a bonafide SUPERB question - and I'd say the answer is...yes. Not necessarily a good aperitif bitters, and certainly not one that would fit well into established categories (quniquina, gentiane, absinthe/pastis/aperitif anis). But THAT fact does not pishposh your idea either. Amer Picon, Campari, Fernet Branca, Unicum, Boker's, Hostetters all fell outside of strict categories. The jury is still out on Khoosh. Someday I may extract some of my Secrestat just to put the flavor question to rest, and when I do, I'll be sure to let the results be known here on eGullet!

And eje, "absinthe bitters" were just absinthe just as "Campari Bitters" or "Bitter Campari" were just Campari. Just another way they were expressed among bartenders and devotees that found its way, occasionally and piecemeal, into barguides of previous eras.

--Doc.

[eje]

Now as to whether simply diluting aromatic bitters would turn them into aperitif bitters

One way of looking at the Cock-tail, is as a bittered sling.

Another way to look at the Cock-tail, is, as a dose of bitters whose flavors have been diluted with more alcohol, and whose bitterness have been tempered with sugar.

Remember, Antoine Peychaud was a Pharmacist and most bitters sold in American at that time were tonic bitters (or supposedly medicinal.)

I doubt Peychaud was the only Pharmacist who realized he could sell more of his patented bitters by sweetening and diluting them a la minute, for the customers in his store.

[bostonapothecary]

Now as to whether simply diluting aromatic bitters would turn them into aperitif bitters

One way of looking at the Cock-tail, is as a bittered sling.

Another way to look at the Cock-tail, is, as a dose of bitters whose flavors have been diluted with more alcohol, and whose bitterness have been tempered with sugar.

Remember, Antoine Peychaud was a Pharmacist and most bitters sold in American at that time were tonic bitters (or supposedly medicinal.)

I doubt Peychaud was the only Pharmacist who realized he could sell more of his patented bitters by sweetening and diluting them a la minute, for the customers in his store.

i always thought that appreciation of bitters is in the evolution of man.... people that seek out sugar are like animals. animals look for sugar because it goes hand in hand with nutritional content. animals avoid bitter because it can sometimes be associated with poison. sometimes if your body has a deficiency as observed in animals with salt deficiencies repulsion to a taste changes so you can fill your deficiency.

cocktails can be seen as nonessential. an evolved man's animal side does not govern his tastes and he can enjoy anything....

the cocktail apparently is civilization and is therefore the only thing seperating us from the animals....

since people drank more proper cocktails back in the days of the savoy that was obviously our peak.... i'm holding it down, but it looks like its downhill from here....

[David Santucci]

the cocktail apparently is civilization and is therefore the only thing seperating us from the animals....

We are always looking for that uniquely human trait that separates us from the animals, and are always finding that the trait that we supposed made us special exists somewhere else in the animal kingdom. Our brains, for example are not the largest relateve to body size (squirrel monkeys' are), or even the most convoluted (dolphins'). Chimpanzees and crows fashion and use tools. So too with the ingestion of unpalatable botanicals for medicinal purposes. Chimpanzees eat bitter leaves to ward off parasites. Elephants seek out and eat a particular tree to induce labor. Nor are we unique in the method of self-medication favored in this forum. Chimps and gorillas will travel for miles seeking out alcohol-rich rotting fruit (which, admittedly, also has a high nutritional content). And, apparently coffee and coca were discovered by humans by observing their effects on goats and llamas, respectively.

But, as far as I know, we are the only species so far that has been observed mixing cocktails.

[thirtyoneknots]

But, as far as I know, we are the only species so far that has been observed mixing cocktails.

Good enough for me!

As to wether the question of types of bitters and so forth, it's pretty clear in my mind that the different types of bitter, aperitif and cocktail, are inextricably linked in their heritage. From my understanding the original cocktail bitter would have been Stroughton's, which was also a more dilute bitter, requiring doses measured in parts of an ounce instead of dashes like Bokers, Abbotts, Angostura, etc. I have never tasted Stroughton's, but I would imagine it's bitter potency to be somewhere in line with Fernet Branca (or perhaps other Eastern European things I have not personally tasted). To my taste, and this is completely open to dispute, Fernet Branca is one of the more bitter things sold as 'potable' and so forms a somewhat useful dividing line between potable bitters like Campari, Cynar, Secrestat, etc (it was a potable bitter no?) and Peychaud's, Bokers, Abbott's, Angostura, etc on the other end. More or less a spectrum of medicines with varying degrees of bitterness that the more 'evolved' of us now cheerfully take preventatively

-Andy

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Stomp

Edited by thirtyoneknots, 12 June 2007 - 12:07 PM.

[eje]

[...]
And eje, "absinthe bitters" were just absinthe just as "Campari Bitters" or "Bitter Campari" were just Campari. Just another way they were expressed among bartenders and devotees that found its way, occasionally and piecemeal, into barguides of previous eras.

Not sure, Doc!

I knew there was a reason I was asking. But, didn't remember until I looked at the upcoming recipes in the Savoy tonight, that it was the appealingly named Choker Cocktail (6 people): 4 glasses Whisky, 2 glasses Absinthe, and 1 dash Absinthe Bitters.

Maybe Whisky, Absinthe, and Peychaud Bitters?

[thirtyoneknots]

[...]
And eje, "absinthe bitters" were just absinthe just as "Campari Bitters" or "Bitter Campari" were just Campari. Just another way they were expressed among bartenders and devotees that found its way, occasionally and piecemeal, into barguides of previous eras.

Not sure, Doc!

I knew there was a reason I was asking. But, didn't remember until I looked at the upcoming recipes in the Savoy tonight, that it was the appealingly named Choker Cocktail (6 people): 4 glasses Whisky, 2 glasses Absinthe, and 1 dash Absinthe Bitters.

Maybe Whisky, Absinthe, and Peychaud Bitters?

Does the Savoy refer at all to pastis? I can't recall reading any reference to it here. Perhaps 'absinthe bitters' refers to proper absinthe, and 'absinthe' really means pastis? A bit of a stretch, I know, but any better idea?

For that matter, are Peychaud's bitters ever mentioned by name in the Savoy? I really ought to get me a copy of that book.

-Andy

[eje]

Does the Savoy refer at all to pastis? I can't recall reading any reference to it here. Perhaps 'absinthe bitters' refers to proper absinthe, and 'absinthe' really means pastis? A bit of a stretch, I know, but any better idea?

For that matter, are Peychaud's bitters ever mentioned by name in the Savoy? I really ought to get me a copy of that book.

-Andy

The Sazerac calls for "Angostura or Peychana" bitters.

Anisette, Hercules, Anis del Mono and Absinthe are the anis flavored liquors and liqueurs called for. I don't know if it's worthy of note; but, Absinthe was never actually illegal in Britain.

I don't think Pernod had yet released its eponymous wormwood free product concurrent with most of the recipes in the book.

[drcocktail]

Troublemaker! What I would propose is that you saw a typo. Duffy's Manual also repeated that recipe, and I know there wasn't anything called "absinthe bitters" in the States. Moreover, Duffy was largely a reprint of Savoy. Subsequent guides publishing the recipe saw Angostura indicated instead. If there WERE such a thing as absinthe bitters, my mind springs to a substance like Chartreuse Elixir Vegetal....a concentrate. Every other ref I've seen to absinthe bitters (or bitter absinthe) by proportions seemed to infer absinthe - just as similar phrasing did for Campari.

And as deep into bitters as I am, it would frankly amaze me never to have heard even a whisper of such a thing. One other thought, though: the Waldorf guides mention "Manhattan Bitters" and we take that to mean generic aromatic bitters, suited to a Manhattan. In Jerry Thomas we saw "Bogart's Bitters" a mistranscription of Bokers. Such phantoms gather over time, but neither of those two, so-named, have ever been documented either.

Then again, maybe Mr. Craddock was making his own private bitters!

Oh, and a final observation: with the legality of absinthe a changing and moving target arount the world these days, we note the term "absinthe bitters" as currently referring to labeling standards for real absinthe being sold in France where it is required that they be labeled as bitters or amer.

--Doc.

[drcocktail]

Does the Savoy refer at all to pastis? I can't recall reading any reference to it here. Perhaps 'absinthe bitters' refers to proper absinthe, and 'absinthe' really means pastis? A bit of a stretch, I know, but any better idea?

-Andy

Interesting conjecture. I don't believe the term "pastis" was even in the public parlance in 1930.

--Doc.

[eje]

thirtyoneknots... The vast majority of the recipes in the Savoy Cocktail book were culled from pre-prohibition sources. Absinthe was banned in the US in 1912 and in 1920 in France. Pernod's wormwood-free product didn't really exist until around 1928 (unconfirmed date), so most of the recipes would have pre-dated both the ban and the existence of Pernod's Pastis. According to the cocktaildb, Hercules was an Absinthe substitute. If I see Hercules in recipes, I conclude I should use use "Pastis" instead.

I'll quote Martin Doudoroff's previous post:

The Savoy is one of the most prominent, early examples of "shovelware" cocktail books. These recipes are seldom fine-tuned or refined. It's quantity, not quality. The point was to produce a big cocktail recipe book for the English market, and the bulk of the book is recipes copied wholesale (accurately or not--for example, the Aviation recipe in Craddock omits the violet liqueur that made the original drink both more interesting and also gave it a hue that was more pertinent to its name) from an assortment of other sources Craddock had from his pre-prohibition days in the USA.

Edited by eje, 13 June 2007 - 12:02 PM.

[eje]

Troublemaker! What I would propose is that you saw a typo. Duffy's Manual also repeated that recipe, and I know there wasn't anything called "absinthe bitters" in the States. Moreover, Duffy was largely a reprint of Savoy. Subsequent guides publishing the recipe saw Angostura indicated instead. If there WERE such a thing as absinthe bitters, my mind springs to a substance like Chartreuse Elixir Vegetal....a concentrate. Every other ref I've seen to absinthe bitters (or bitter absinthe) by proportions seemed to infer absinthe - just as similar phrasing did for Campari.

And as deep into bitters as I am, it would frankly amaze me never to have heard even a whisper of such a thing. One other thought, though: the Waldorf guides mention "Manhattan Bitters" and we take that to mean generic aromatic bitters, suited to a Manhattan. In Jerry Thomas we saw "Bogart's Bitters" a mistranscription of Bokers. Such phantoms gather over time, but neither of those two, so-named, have ever been documented either.

Then again, maybe Mr. Craddock was making his own private bitters! 

Oh, and a final observation: with the legality of absinthe a changing and moving target arount the world these days, we note the term "absinthe bitters" as currently referring to labeling standards for real absinthe being sold in France where it is required that they be labeled as bitters or amer.

--Doc.

Thinking about this, this morning on the way to work, I remembered there are some current Absinthe-like products that add Gentian into the mix of herbs. Versinthe is the one I am most familiar with.

Though, the text which accompanies the cocktail, makes me wonder if it wasn't something like a bitters based on a wormwood maceration.

It says something like, "If you can drink this you can drink anything -- A newly laid egg placed in it will immediately become hard boiled."

Sounds really appealing doesn't it?

Edited by eje, 13 June 2007 - 11:03 AM.

[thirtyoneknots]

I did know that about the Savoy recipe timeline and about the legal status of absinthe in the UK (though not about the release timeline of Pernod, I only knew it had been around long enough to appear in the Gentleman's Companion). All I claimed is that I had a theory. I didn't say I had a good theory :-P

-Andy

[eje]

Cecil Pick-Me-Up Cocktail

The Yolk of 1 Egg
1 Glass Brandy (2 oz Pierre Ferrand Ambre)
1 Teaspoonful Castor Sugar

Shake well and strain into medium-size wine glass and fill balance with Ayala (Louis Bouillot, Cremant de Bourgogne Rose ''Perle d'Aurore'', a bit past its prime. - eje) Champagne.

This is quite eggy.

It is tasty, and all. Still the first impression is a big taste of egg yolk.

Later the champagne and brandy make themselves apparent.

Weird, really. A breakfast drink, I suppose!

[eje]

C.F.H. Cocktail

1/6 Grenadine (1/2 oz homemade)
1/6 Cederlund's Swedish Punch (1/2 oz Facile Swedish Punch)
1/6 Calvados (1/2 oz Laird's Bonded Apple Brandy)
1/6 Lemon Juice (1/2 oz fresh lemon juice)
1/3 Burrough's Beefeater Gin (1 oz Boodle's Gin)

(Shake and strain into cocktail glass - eje)

Oddly, this recipe has no method instructions and I couldn't dig up anything on the name.

Anyway, it's really quite tasty. A sort of more sophisticated Jack Rose.

Really enjoyed the interplay of the spice elements of the gin and Swedish Punsch with the Apple Brandy and Lemon.

Edited by eje, 14 June 2007 - 10:27 PM.

[David Santucci]

Facile Swedish Punch?

[eje]

Facile Swedish Punch?

Yeah, it's a Swedish Punsch made by Henrik Facile in Stockholm, Sweden.

[thirtyoneknots]

Facile Swedish Punch?

Yeah, it's a Swedish Punsch made by Henrik Facile in Stockholm, Sweden.

Don't suppose there's any chance he'd be willing to reveal his methodology? I could bake him cookies :-P