328 replies to this topic

[MattJohnson]

The Old Fascist is where my mind went after reading the Imbibe article about brandy old fashioneds in Wisconsin.  I had no idea that was the tradition there.  Since my current place of employ features Spanish wines and foods as part of the menu, switching up for the Jerez brandy seemed an easy enough thing to make the drink thematically appropriate and sort of our own.  The name was just an added bonus from hanging out with folks that have a twisted sense of humor. 

Well, I think its a great name and sounds delicious. Kudos.

I don't have strong feelings for or against the muddling. I say go for it either/both ways. And while serb hall doesn't muddle, I bet someone will say that some great supper club somewhere does. Tomato, Tomahto :D

This weekend, I made an OF with gin and muddled orange peel. It was great. Love angostura and gin.

[Yojimbo]

Ever since Dave the Cook (and Eric Felten over at the WSJ) turned me on to the Omar Bradley, I've been intrigued. The inherent complexity of a good orange marmalade is a swell foil for the liquor (bourbon in particular), and it's a drink that demands a taste or two to adjust sweetness or another element. Here's the base recipe with my tweaks:

3 oz bourbon (Wild Turkey 101)
1 heaping tsp bitter orange marmalade
1 squeeze fresh lemon juice (go easy)
1 dash simple syrup (if the marmalade is truly bitter)
2 dashes Angostura bitters

Shake, strain and sieve, cherry if you're feeling the need.

Tonight I realized that the marmalade I have had crystallized, so I created an Omar Bradley base, adding to the jar some simple and a bunch of bitters plus a bit of booze to the jar and shaking hard. It's weird and good.

Hmm, I'm suddenly thinking of making one of these, but subbing in some Asian honey-lemon tea mix, which is rather like a tart, lemon-peel marmalade. Have you tried this with rye instead of bourbon?

Interesting . . . .

[Chris Amirault]

Yep. Works, but I prefer bourbon here.

[shantytownbrown]

[

Hmm, I'm suddenly thinking of making one of these, but subbing in some Asian honey-lemon tea mix, which is rather like a tart, lemon-peel marmalade.  Have you tried this with rye instead of bourbon?

Interesting . . . .

funny i just saw this stuff(the asian tea mix) in my grocery market the other day , and thought of using it for this type of drink, i have made something similar using Citron-Honey from Trader Joes and one with a combo of orange marmalade and english grapefruit marmalade...i think i got the original recipe from Food and Wine a few years ago

I have used both rye and bourbon, and i like both (but thats just me)

shanty

[Holly Moore]

During my formative years cocktail hour always arrived after my father arrived home on the Erie-Lackawana. He usually had scotch on the rocks. My mother what she considered to be an old fashioned. Her recipe - maybe a tsp of a good quality British orange marmalade and a couple of spurts of bitters muddled together. Then a very generous shot of rye, ice to fill, and a splash or water.

Incidentally, for some reason I now remember that the scotch old fashioned served at the Top of the Sixes in the late 60's was called a Wheeler Special created by and named for the then manager. A round of Wheeler Specials was the cocktail stop for the Cornell Hotel School senior class trip - a day that started at 5 AM with breakfast at Sloppy Louie's and a tour of the fulton fish market, after which we sojourned to Jersey to visit a slaughter house and observe the kosher kill of lambs and all that "entrails."

[Chris Amirault]

Had a nice variation on the Omar using orange juice instead of lemon with Heaven Hill BIB 100 proof, which I can get in 1 liter bottles for a song around here. Dropped a few drops of Fee's Old Fashioned bitters in there too.

[jmfangio]

Hmm, I'm suddenly thinking of making one of these, but subbing in some Asian honey-lemon tea mix, which is rather like a tart, lemon-peel marmalade.  Have you tried this with rye instead of bourbon?

Interesting . . . .

Funny you mention that - when I saw the Omar Bradley recipe the first thing I thought of was using Korean Yuzu/Honey tea. I went through a phase a couple of years ago when I was trying it out in a lot of different cocktails. For those of you without a Korean market nearby, but with a Trader Joe's, the citron honey tea that Shantytownbrown mentions is the exact same thing.

[Chris Amirault]

I've been screwing around with mezcal Old Fashioneds at home, using gum syrup and Angostura. I'm a firm believer. The possibilities are endless.

[vice]

Beyond gum and ango, what are some of the other possibilities you've experimented with?

[KD1191]

Haven't tried Mezcal, but I enjoy a tequila old fashioned. Hibiscus and ginger syrup both work well...Angostura Orange plays nice here, as do some homemade habanero bitters.

[KatieLoeb]

I learned a great trick from Archie, my favorite bartender at the Champagne Bar on the cruise I went on last May to Bermuda. Make an old fashioned mix to keep in a squeeze bottle for speedier drink making. Make a quart of 1:1 simple syrup with the peel of one orange removed with a veggie peeler (all zest - no pith) boiled into it. Strain and add 2 oz. Angostura bitters (or more to taste - I like a few dashes of Fee Whiskey Barrel Aged bitters as well. I can tell it's right from the color, I guess) and a splash of Cointreau. Use a squirt of this to muddle your fruit (or not) when making your Old Fashioneds. Makes a great instant Champagne cocktail too, and there's no overly sweet sludge at the bottom of the flute. Mixes through completely and tastes delicious from the first sip to the last. Not bad for a Faux-Zerac either, if you're lacking Peychaud's.

[Chris Amirault]

Beyond gum and ango, what are some of the other possibilities you've experimented with?

With and without the citrus; using and not using the cherries (idea: soak cherries in the mezcal...); different mezcals; agave, honey, demerara syrups; about 10 different bitters. There are a few things that didn't seem to work at all (Peychaud's, for example), and some that I'm thinking will work if only I can figure it out (an Improved Mezcal Cocktail, in particular).

[brinza]

I learned a great trick from Archie, my favorite bartender at the Champagne Bar on the cruise I went on last May to Bermuda. Make an old fashioned mix to keep in a squeeze bottle for speedier drink making. Make a quart of 1:1 simple syrup with the peel of one orange removed with a veggie peeler (all zest - no pith) boiled into it. Strain and add 2 oz. Angostura bitters (or more to taste - I like a few dashes of Fee Whiskey Barrel Aged bitters as well. I can tell it's right from the color, I guess) and a splash of Cointreau. Use a squirt of this to muddle your fruit (or not) when making your Old Fashioneds. Makes a great instant Champagne cocktail too, and there's no overly sweet sludge at the bottom of the flute. Mixes through completely and tastes delicious from the first sip to the last. Not bad for a Faux-Zerac either, if you're lacking Peychaud's.

What a great idea! I got hooked on the trick that was suggested somewhere around here a while ago which involved using orange marmalade if you've got no fresh oranges on hand. I've also suggested using Wild Turkey American Honey as a quick and easy sweetener for Old Fashioneds. Your friend's idea make so much sense.

With and without the citrus; using and not using the cherries (idea: soak cherries in the mezcal...); different mezcals; agave, honey, demerara syrups; about 10 different bitters. There are a few things that didn't seem to work at all (Peychaud's, for example), and some that I'm thinking will work if only I can figure it out (an Improved Mezcal Cocktail, in particular).

Grapefruit bitters always seems to work well with tequila, but I'm not sure how it works with mezcal, or if it would be right for an Old Fashioned. Maybe I'll try it and let you know. I think for an Improved Mezcal (or Tequila) Cocktail, what we need is a lime liqueur. Why isn't there one?

[thirtyoneknots]

I learned a great trick from Archie, my favorite bartender at the Champagne Bar on the cruise I went on last May to Bermuda. Make an old fashioned mix to keep in a squeeze bottle for speedier drink making. Make a quart of 1:1 simple syrup with the peel of one orange removed with a veggie peeler (all zest - no pith) boiled into it. Strain and add 2 oz. Angostura bitters (or more to taste - I like a few dashes of Fee Whiskey Barrel Aged bitters as well. I can tell it's right from the color, I guess) and a splash of Cointreau. Use a squirt of this to muddle your fruit (or not) when making your Old Fashioneds. Makes a great instant Champagne cocktail too, and there's no overly sweet sludge at the bottom of the flute. Mixes through completely and tastes delicious from the first sip to the last. Not bad for a Faux-Zerac either, if you're lacking Peychaud's.

What a great idea! I got hooked on the trick that was suggested somewhere around here a while ago which involved using orange marmalade if you've got no fresh oranges on hand. I've also suggested using Wild Turkey American Honey as a quick and easy sweetener for Old Fashioneds. Your friend's idea make so much sense.

Just to be a voice for the curmudgeons here, I think the idea of having a "mix" for Old-Fashioneds sort of misses the point of the drink. It is supposed to be done the "Old Fashioned" way...there's a great rant somewhere around here from Mr. Wondrich on the subject that sums it up for me. The name refers to a time when even syrups were looked upon with suspicion by at least some of the drinkers of the day, hence most early recipes specifying loaf sugar.

[KatieLoeb]

Andy:

Go ahead. Be a curmudgeon. I don't have a problem with being a purist. But sometimes when you're really weeded at the service bar at 8:30 on a Saturday night, this is helpful and efficient. And as I mentioned, it does duty for Champagne cocktails and other applications as well. For home use, perhaps not necessary, but in a high volume environment, sometimes a necessary evil. And the syrup is delicious. I'm finding new ways to play with it all the time.

[thirtyoneknots]

Andy:

Go ahead. Be a curmudgeon. I don't have a problem with being a purist. But sometimes when you're really weeded at the service bar at 8:30 on a Saturday night, this is helpful and efficient. And as I mentioned, it does duty for Champagne cocktails and other applications as well. For home use, perhaps not necessary, but in a high volume environment, sometimes a necessary evil. And the syrup is delicious. I'm finding new ways to play with it all the time.

When I was weeded at the service well tonight (at around 9) I made the concession of using rich syrup in OFs rather than crushing a cube each time. Not saying the syrup doesn't have merits, but I just don't think it is a worthwhile shortcut to take. Premixing things to save time is a dangerous path that breeds things like sour mix.

[Chris Amirault]

Enjoying an aquavit Old Fashioned with Skane, Angostura, and gum syrup. While I certainly appreciate the importance of keeping the Old Fashioned old fashioned, it is a drink where gum syrup truly contributes something wonderful.

[Kohai]

If syrup was good enough for Embury, it's good enough for me. I'm not sure I see the benefit of sugar cubes beyond placating that nagging purist demon perched on my shoulder.

[thirtyoneknots]

If syrup was good enough for Embury, it's good enough for me. I'm not sure I see the benefit of sugar cubes beyond placating that nagging purist demon perched on my shoulder.

There isn't one, except that it is a precisely measured amount of sugar. For me though, placating my inner purist is reason enough. I used to make OFs exclusively with syrup. About a year and a half ago I rediscovered the joys of making them from scratch and it was a sort of return to basics time for me in the craft anyways so it has a sort of existential level of significance to me personally. An Old-Fashioned is I think as good a test as any for any bartender who takes drink-making seriously. There's not only one way to do it correctly, or even deliciously, but I think you can gain significant insight into a bartender's philosophy from how they make an Old Fashioned.

[KatieLoeb]

An Old-Fashioned is I think as good a test as any for any bartender who takes drink-making seriously. There's not only one way to do it correctly, or even deliciously, but I think you can gain significant insight into a bartender's philosophy from how they make an Old Fashioned.

And how I do that for recreational use or when I have the time to discuss it with my guest and really tell them what that's about is very different than being functional in the heat of service on a busy shift in a high volume restaurant. Doesn't mean I'm not taking it seriously, nor that I don't recognize the difference. In fact, I think I'm finding the very best/most flavorful possible shortcut given the circumstances. I'm still muddling real brandied cherries with a wee bit of the brandy and a fresh wedge of orange in that Old Fashioned mix. The waitstaff and the unrelenting/merciless service bar printer couldn't give a fig about whether I'm muddling a sugar cube or not, and I/my cohorts have to stay ahead of drowning in a sea of service tickets. There are two bartenders serving both the dining room and the bar guests and trying to stay out of each other's way and remain efficient and speedy. It is what it is. If I worked at Violet Hour, Pegu Club or Death & Co. I'd have the luxury of having both the guests and the staff know that they'd have to wait for their drinks to be "created" or "conjured up". Sadly, it's not a luxury I live with at the moment. :shrug: We do our best to overcome adversity...

[thirtyoneknots]

Just to clarify, my thoughts on the construction of this cocktail are not intended as an affront to anyone's professionalism or dedication to the craft--just my opinions. I confess that here in Texas the drinking public is only vaguely aware of a drink called the Old Fashioned, without much idea of what it is or why it is significant. If I am to introduce it to them properly, I feel like I have to do it The Hard Way, to drive home the higher significance the drink has to history. This is not the kind of thing that is ordered very often by people at tables in the dining room, it is normally the kind of thing that I am pushing on people sitting at the bar, trying my damnedest to wean them off of Crown and Coke.

I am enthusiastic user of syrups of all kind, which I can make in creative flavors and concentrations to expand the palette I have to work with. They also have limitations, though, and it seems to me that the OF mix outlined above would make a much sweeter drink than I am accustomed to but this is a matter of taste, of course. As I typically don't include fruit unless requested by the customer, sugar is the only thing I am muddling anyway.

And how I do that for recreational use or when I have the time to discuss it with my guest and really tell them what that's about is very different than being functional in the heat of service on a busy shift in a high volume restaurant. Doesn't mean I'm not taking it seriously, nor that I don't recognize the difference. In fact, I think I'm finding the very best/most flavorful possible shortcut given the circumstances. I'm still muddling real brandied cherries with a wee bit of the brandy and a fresh wedge of orange in that Old Fashioned mix.

Ms. Loeb, I hope that you are not as offended by my remarks as it seems. I think that this is actually a good example of what I was trying to say about philosphies--you have a clear and laudible emphasis on making sure that everyone has a drink, and that it has been made in a unique way, with items that you have made ahead of time (Cherries) with great thought and care. I am more likely to make the next person wait their turn while I perform as much "show" as time allows while making someone's drink in front of them. When the next person gets their turn, they get the same treatment. Neither way is better, it is just a different philosophy. It was certainly not my intent to imply a lack of seriousness on anyone's part, especially yours.

Clearly during the midweek dinner rush when I am by myself and have 14 people sitting at my bar and the restaraunt is on a wait and the printer is buzzing incessantly, folks aren't going to get the full 20 min shpiel on the Old Fashioned's place in American history

[bostonapothecary]

the bar i'm working now is impossibly busy and besides making drinks you are also the host and work the phones which ring a lot. we probably should have been beer and wine only. to keep it all possible i batch the two straight spirit drinks.

old fashioned

18 oz. bourbon (grand dad)
4.5 oz. simple syrup*
1.25 oz. angostura bitters

get it on the rocks by any means necessary
express orange oil over it for top notes.

*a little matilde pear liqueur goes into the sugar blend (maybe .75 oz. out of 4.5) to create a slightly more fun fruit expression.

the other bartender just pours it on the rocks. i manage to stir it with ice and strain it over fresh ice. i swear by the weighted stirring pitchers so i can multi task by while stirring without knocking anything over. because it is batched we also can top people up or make very tiny ones. we fly through them.

[campus five]

Perhaps this belongs in a sugar / syrup thread, but I am just NOT a fan of the sugar cube in OF/Sazerac type cocktails. I have had so many OF's and Sazeracs in any number of outstanding bars, and it seems like every time I get one at a place that uses cubes, I am served a glass with a significant amount of undissolved sugar at the bottom. I've heard the argument that the sugar eventually dissolves, but unless I stir it a ton, it just doesn't happen. And personally, less than 1 cube to 2 oz of booze is too dry, and 2 cubes would be too much.

I understand the various sides of the cube/syrup debate. But among the craft cocktail bars I've been to in LA, SF, NYC, Seattle, Denver and London, I've had maybe only one or two over sweetened OF's made with syrup, and I have had way too many under sweetened or gritty cocktails. If many of the top places around the country can't seem to execute the sugar cube consistently, then why bother?

I think a barspoon of 2:1 demerrara sugar syrup to 2 oz of booze will do anytime.



On another note, I've noticed several drinks on menus as said bars that are basically OF's with a liqueur as the sweetener. Varnish in LA has the Hunter, which is Rye/Heering/Ango. I know I've seen and had several others, with Chartreuse, Benedictine, etc. I seem to recall Dave Wondrich mentioned an Esquire a while back that he would order a DIY OF in less than ideal cocktail situations: "Elijah Craig 12 on the rocks, with a splash of Cointreau, and a couple dashes of bitters." (maybe it was GraMa, I can't remember).

Then again, I just polished of a pretty outstanding Sazerac (1.5 oz Rittenhouse BIB, .5 oz '08 Stagg, 4 dashes peychauds, 2 ango, lemon - rinse of 50/50 Vieux Pontarlier/St. George), so maybe I'm not so objective right now.

[KatieLoeb]

Andy:

I'm not offended nor did I believe you were impugning my professionalism. We clearly work both in very different sorts of restaurant settings, as well as in different cities with different tastes, different levels of customer cocktail knowledge and commonly ordered items. Believe me, nothing pleases me more than having the time to geek out with a bar guest and get up close and personal with them about their Old Fashioned or whatever it is they're consuming that night, and putting on that "show" for each and every bar guest. But part of my job is trying to streamline procedures and such so that even the highest volume evening with the highest maintenance mix of items ordered can be handled efficiently and speedily. Sometimes I have to cut a couple of corners (compared to the standard Old School preparation methods) to do that, but I still try to make everything with fresh, real ingredients (no polluting of cocktails with artificially colored and flavor Maraschino cherries or bottled lime cordial in the gimlets on my watch) that taste like fresh real ingredients. I'm flattered you believe I've brandied the cherries myself, but for the record we use the La Parisienne brandied cherries. They are consistent and delicious and actually resemble something that was once an organic object hanging off of a tree...

I have to agree with Campus Five's comments about the gritty/oversweetened OF's that result from the muddled sugar cubes. I'm a big fan of using the syrup for consistencies sake as well. The syrup mixes through the drink more evenly and the drink tastes delicious from the first sip to the last without a puddle of sugary sludge at the bottom of it. And if everyone is using the same measurements then no matter which bartender's shift it is that night, the customer's drink tastes just like it did the last time they ordered it. That's most certainly another important reason I make and use the syrup.

[KD1191]

Re: Cube(s) vs. Syrup, there's an excellent post on the Beta Cocktails blog that attempts to refute the various reasons people cite for preferring sugar cubes to simple syrup.

[Kohai]

Bostonapothecary: What kind of weighted pitchers are you using?


And this might be better in a separate syrup thread, but anyway: can anyone tell me the problem with making simple syrup using hot or boiling water?

I have heard a lot about the the superiority of cold-processed (ie, dissolved by shaking at room temperature) simple syrups but I am not sure what the advantage is. Help?

Edited by Kohai, 02 March 2010 - 12:21 PM.

[KD1191]

[C]an anyone tell me the problem with making simple syrup using hot or boiling water?

I have heard a lot about the the superiority of cold-processed (ie, dissolved by shaking at room temperature) simple syrups but I am not sure what the advantage is. Help?

Here's a good summary, "[H]ot process, vs. cold process — will have a dramatic effect on the flavor & consistency of your syrup. Heated syrup will be thinner, due to a higher presence of fructose, whereas syrup dissolved at room temperature will be nice and thick, and 100% sucrose."

Many also say they can taste a decidedly "cooked" flavor in heated syrups.

[brinza]

...it is normally the kind of thing that I am pushing on people sitting at the bar, trying my damnedest to wean them off of Crown and Coke.

I've never been to Texas, but from what I've seen and heard, that's quite a formidable task you've set for yourself, there! Safe to say you don't work at Billy Bob's?

[thirtyoneknots]

...it is normally the kind of thing that I am pushing on people sitting at the bar, trying my damnedest to wean them off of Crown and Coke.

I've never been to Texas, but from what I've seen and heard, that's quite a formidable task you've set for yourself, there! Safe to say you don't work at Billy Bob's?

Yeah, it's not easy--Texans are generally quite set in their ways. We've made excellent progress though, I think. In three years open we've gone from going through about a case of Crown Royal a month to a reasonable rate of about 3 bottles a month, and our cocktails, including Old Fashioneds, have a modest but loyal following. We recently had a dinner with Buffalo Trace, tasting through 7 of their offerings including 3 of the '09 Antique Collection releases. I view having had a tasting for American Whiskey, which lacks the cachet of Scotch and the 'smoothness' of Canadian whisky, sell out with a standby list, to be a huge success in the mission to get people to drink better.

Long way to go yet.

[KatieLoeb]

We recently had a dinner with Buffalo Trace, tasting through 7 of their offerings including 3 of the '09 Antique Collection releases.

The Antique Collection stuff is delicious and was my favorite table at Philadelphia Whiskey Fest last November.

I view having had a tasting for American Whiskey, which lacks the cachet of Scotch and the 'smoothness' of Canadian whisky, sell out with a standby list, to be a huge success in the mission to get people to drink better.

Good on 'ya! That is indeed fantastic and we are forever on the "mission" to get folks to drink better. Speaking as one that's been pushing that rock uphill here in Philly for quite some time (with the added joys of the state run monopoly known as the PLCB thrown in) I applaud your choice to have the dinner and congratulate you on the sellout.

Long way to go yet.

Amen Brother. Always true...