Jump to content


Welcome to the eG Forums!

These forums are a service of the Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, a 501c3 nonprofit organization dedicated to advancement of the culinary arts. Anyone can read the forums, however if you would like to participate in active discussions please join the Society.

Photo

Making Hand-Pulled Noodles

Chinese

  • Please log in to reply
212 replies to this topic

#91 Ader1

Ader1
  • participating member
  • 148 posts

Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:37 AM

  • For the real thing, higher protein content seems to be recommended;
  • Desired target temperature for mixing the dough would be at around 30°C;
  • Flour-to-water ratio 2:1; (hey, where have I seen that before?) - this also explains why to start with warm water or cold water, depending on season, to maximize gluten formation;
  • The article suggests a resting time of about 20 minutes
  • "Surface, water, salt, alkali ratio: 1:0.5:0.01:0.01. 100 g surface (=flour), 50 g of water 1 gram salt, 1 gram alkali."


Thank you. And what I waw told as being 'higher' meant above 12%.

Edited by Ader1, 30 July 2012 - 02:38 AM.


#92 kleinebre

kleinebre
  • participating member
  • 47 posts

Posted 30 July 2012 - 04:23 PM

Google Translate is hilariously inept at translating Chinese. I'd be very sceptical. Especially on numbers and weights. It gets them wrong all the time.

Google translate inept at translating Chinese? I have no idea what you're talking about.

""King on foot, his hands hold two one stretch, a jitter rejection documented on two head cross left hand grip, right thumb and middle finger grasp the middle section into the other end, and homeopathic right outside the direction doubled stretch shaking in surface stretch long."

Yep, I'll be a bad-ass noodle maker in no time now.

#93 dcarch

dcarch
  • participating member
  • 2,373 posts

Posted 30 July 2012 - 06:35 PM


Google Translate is hilariously inept at translating Chinese. I'd be very sceptical. Especially on numbers and weights. It gets them wrong all the time.

Google translate inept at translating Chinese? I have no idea what you're talking about.

""King on foot, his hands hold two one stretch, a jitter rejection documented on two head cross left hand grip, right thumb and middle finger grasp the middle section into the other end, and homeopathic right outside the direction doubled stretch shaking in surface stretch long."

Yep, I'll be a bad-ass noodle maker in no time now.


I was told, with Google Translate in one language, the following translation from one to the other:

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak

becomes:

The wine is good, but the meat is terrible.

dcarch

#94 liuzhou

liuzhou
  • participating member
  • 2,118 posts
  • Location:Liuzhou, Guangxi, China

Posted 30 July 2012 - 06:55 PM

It is supposedly Russian and was "The vodka is good, but the meat is rotten". However, amusing as it is, it is probably a myth.

#95 Ader1

Ader1
  • participating member
  • 148 posts

Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:34 AM

Google Translate is hilariously inept at translating Chinese. I'd be very sceptical. Especially on numbers and weights. It gets them wrong all the time.


Are you suggesting that I got my above 12% Protein figure from a Google translation? Fine. I'll let you continue watching Lukerymarz et al videos and combining All purpose with whatever.......LOL!

#96 liuzhou

liuzhou
  • participating member
  • 2,118 posts
  • Location:Liuzhou, Guangxi, China

Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:56 AM

Are you suggesting that I got my above 12% Protein figure from a Google translation?


No. Not at all.

If you read the previous posts, you would realise anything I said about Google MisTranslate was in response to kleinebre who posted about using it.

No reference to you or anything you ever said. Sorry.

Edited by liuzhou, 31 July 2012 - 04:58 AM.


#97 Ader1

Ader1
  • participating member
  • 148 posts

Posted 31 July 2012 - 05:53 AM

The Chinese use High Protein Flour.


Do you have anything to back this up?

It is nonsense.


This is what you said earlier. I was unhappy about that. Kleinebre posted a google translation of a La Mian recipe and you just rubbished google's Chinese translating abilities when it agreed with what I said. Fairi enough that may well be true. However, I am right on this one regarding the Protein content of the Flour which is desired for making La Mian noodles.....well almost. I stated 12% Protein. In actual fact, it's above 12.5%. But, a La Mian master can work with Flour with lower Protein levels but for the desired end product....above 12.5%. Do you have information to the contratry?

Edited by Ader1, 31 July 2012 - 05:54 AM.


#98 dcarch

dcarch
  • participating member
  • 2,373 posts

Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:15 AM

Ask an engineer, according to the laws of physics, the weakest link in a chain theory, there is no possible way you can make pulled noodles becuase the weak spot in a strain of noodle will get weaker much sooner and break faster.

Therefore I conclude that all the pulled noodle demonstrations and videos are illusions and magic tricks. :-).

I have tried high gluten, low gluten, and no gluten, lye water --------, nothing worked so far.

dcarch

#99 liuzhou

liuzhou
  • participating member
  • 2,118 posts
  • Location:Liuzhou, Guangxi, China

Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:54 AM

My rubbishing of Google's translating abilities was nothing to do with whether it agreed with you or not. Surprising as it may seem to you, you were not even on the radar of my thinking.

My rubbishing of Google MisTranslate is slightly more to do with the fact that I do speak Chinese and can see immediately how inept it is.

I was merely warning that it often gets quantities and weights wrong.

As to the Chinese using high protein flour, I'd love to see you come here and try to find any.

#100 kleinebre

kleinebre
  • participating member
  • 47 posts

Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:20 AM

Good, so after experimenting and having some degree of success with a mix of plain flour, tapioca starch and water... I'm back to the drawing board. I've got myself a bag of the highest quality, strongest flour I could find. Protein content: 14.8%. Let's see how that works out over the next 5 tries or so.

#101 kleinebre

kleinebre
  • participating member
  • 47 posts

Posted 31 July 2012 - 11:53 AM

The best noodles are made using flower with Protein levels above 12% . I am not at my computer now but I can give you a list of the names of the flours they use or rather believe are the best to use. This comes from information I received from people who emanate from Lanzo.....which is the home of La Mian. I've watched Lukerymarz 'make' 'noodles' and he's nowhere near creating what they should be like. I'm not sure if his recipe is any good. I may take a look at it this week when I've got some Lye.

I'd be interested in seeing that list as well as how you're getting on.

I've cooked for more than a few years but this is by far the most frustrating/difficult thing I've come across until now. If my experience with this is any indication for what others are going through, many of us are stuck not so much at the quality and authenticity of the noodles, but at finding a dough recipe that works well enough in the first place to get past that first pull. Even if my 1 cup flour/1 cup tapioca starch/mix/add 1 cup warm water/knead/rest/knead doesn't result in that ideal "bouncy" chewiness, at least it gave me something that in raw state seems to closely enough resemble the real thing that I can now at least do *some* work on my pulling technique. Perhaps what we noodle noobs need to get started is a recipe for beginners, before we can move up to the next level. If it's low-gluten instead of high-gluten as it should be, so be it. I like to imagine that the Italians ended up with their not-quite-authentic-Asian pasta cuisine because they didn't manage to make la mian ;)

Together we'll crack it!

Edited by kleinebre, 31 July 2012 - 11:56 AM.


#102 Ader1

Ader1
  • participating member
  • 148 posts

Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:21 AM

As I said, the ideal for making noodles is 12.5 or above but noodles may be made with flour with lower Protein/Gluten levels. In a bowl, put some flour....around 1 kg. Add some salt......less than half a tsp. Add water into a hollowed out middle flour and mix with your hands. You are a chef so you will know to do this equally. No lumps of well watered dough and other dry flour.....as far as possible. Add more water. I read that water should be added 3 times but I don't think that is so important. Water should make up to around 50% of the dough. Put the dough on a flat surface....the bowl should be clean. And knead for a little while. Then add noodle agent. and knead some more. Leave for a while....maybe 20 mins. Knead some more and when the surface is really smooth and shiny.....start spinning.....first clockwise then anti-clockwise. It will take you a long time before you become proficient in 'spinning or is it 'twirling'? You will then reach a point when you can feel the dough will stretch. Then put some oil/four on the table and make your/roll your dough into a tube. Cut it into around 3 equal portions. Cut off both ends of your initial longer tube as they will be where you held the dough or where the dough folded back on itself at the half way mark.. Pull each one othe the smaller tubes.

#103 Mjx

Mjx

    Senior Host

  • host
  • 6,227 posts

Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:39 AM

What is the 'noodle agent', and why isn't it addded in with the water? It seems that would be an more effective way to distribute it evenly throughout the dough.

Michaela, aka "Mjx"
Senior Host, eG Forums
mscioscia@egstaff.org


#104 Ader1

Ader1
  • participating member
  • 148 posts

Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:48 AM

Noodle agent is 'Peng Hui' in China. This guy in the States told me that there they use Lye water but I've been told elsewhere that this isn't very good. I've ordered some to try. Bakins Soda does help but it's not a substitute. Maybe it would be ok if you had one of those commercial food mixers to work with. I'm telling you how this was done by myself in small quantities. I saw it done by a restauranteer in quantities of 25kgs and upwards. He put a little on the dough then left the dough to rest then just before eating time....he would put some more on a fraction of the dough and twirl it. It is a good question. I'm goint to try and get an answer to that question but I'm not in China now so we'll see if I can get the answer.

#105 Emily_R

Emily_R
  • participating member
  • 881 posts

Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:56 AM

Kleinebre -- Did you see this video / site / recipe I posted several pages up? He has very detailed instructions, recipes, and videos... His recipe uses some cake flour in the dough, specifically because he says that Chinese flour typically has less protein than ours -- suggesting less rather than more protein is important. And he talks extensively about the kneading process, which, in his words: "You have to knead this noodle dough many times longer than you would a bread of pizza dough. You need to destroy the gluten structure enough such that it doesn't resist when you stretch it."

Perhaps worth a try as an alternative to the recipes you've been using?

http://www.lukerymar...dles/index.html

#106 Ader1

Ader1
  • participating member
  • 148 posts

Posted 01 August 2012 - 01:14 PM

Kleinebre -- Did you see this video / site / recipe I posted several pages up? He has very detailed instructions, recipes, and videos... His recipe uses some cake flour in the dough, specifically because he says that Chinese flour typically has less protein than ours -- suggesting less rather than more protein is important. And he talks extensively about the kneading process, which, in his words: "You have to knead this noodle dough many times longer than you would a bread of pizza dough. You need to destroy the gluten structure enough such that it doesn't resist when you stretch it."

Perhaps worth a try as an alternative to the recipes you've been using?

http://www.lukerymar...dles/index.html


Maybe you could point out where in his video he actually manages to 'pull noodles'? I havn't been able to see him manage anything resemble this process./art....

#107 Emily_R

Emily_R
  • participating member
  • 881 posts

Posted 01 August 2012 - 02:36 PM

I don't understand Ader -- the second video on his Instructions page shows him pulling the dough into noodles -- from around minute 1 to minute 1:19...

#108 Ader1

Ader1
  • participating member
  • 148 posts

Posted 02 August 2012 - 02:48 AM

I don't understand Ader -- the second video on his Instructions page shows him pulling the dough into noodles -- from around minute 1 to minute 1:19...


Have you seen how thick they are after his final pull? Have you seen Chinese hand pulled noodle practitioners pull noodles? Luke doesn't (in his videos) show how to pull noodles which would be pleasant to eat.....in my impinion at least. I bet youv'e never eatern noodles as thick as the ones he produces....?

#109 Ader1

Ader1
  • participating member
  • 148 posts

Posted 02 August 2012 - 04:35 AM

Does anybody here know the chemical composition of Peng Hui?

#110 Emily_R

Emily_R
  • participating member
  • 881 posts

Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:08 AM

Ader -- I was offering that recipe and video to present a clear alternative to high protein recipes. Although he doesn't continue to pull the noodles, that dough certainly does not look prone to breaking, and I see no reason it could not have been pulled more. But now I see that in threads above you have already laughed off the very idea that this video / recipe could be useful.

#111 Ader1

Ader1
  • participating member
  • 148 posts

Posted 02 August 2012 - 06:21 AM

If you notice Emily.....it does break with him and he says that it's ok and to just grab the broken end and continue.....and the dough isn't at all thin. It is also uneven in thickness. That is no good. Have you seen real La Mian practitioners peform? They can pull noodles so thinly that you can thread several of the noodles through the eye of a needle. Ok....who needs to do that? But what this guy does in the video would certainly (in my opinion) not be pleasant to eat.

#112 dcarch

dcarch
  • participating member
  • 2,373 posts

Posted 02 August 2012 - 07:01 AM

Check these out, if you have not done so already.

dcarch





#113 Will

Will
  • participating member
  • 460 posts

Posted 02 August 2012 - 12:02 PM

Does anybody here know the chemical composition of Peng Hui?


It's mugwort potash, so I assume potassium hydroxide (basically, the older form of lye, which these days is more often sodium hydroxide from what I understand).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potash

#114 avaserfi

avaserfi
  • eGullet Society staff emeritus
  • 379 posts

Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:10 PM

I've spent a couple days working on pulling noodles. I still need to work on my technique to even out the noodles. From what I understand, this is an issue of pulling the noodles at the ideal timing and technique, hopefully I'll get there. At the same time, I am slowly adjusting the recipe to better fit my goals. That said, these were delicious.

Not the most best shot, but it shows the noodles well.

Posted Image
Andrew Vaserfirer aka avaserfi

Host, eG Forums

avaserfirer@egstaff.org



eG Ethics Signatory

#115 Ader1

Ader1
  • participating member
  • 148 posts

Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:53 AM

Some of them noodles are quite thin. Well done. Are you lifting the noodles off the table completely? I've seen some noodle pulling where the puller allows gravity to do it's work to some degree. This is not correct. Noodles should be made by pulling alone and kept on the table.....bench.

#116 dcarch

dcarch
  • participating member
  • 2,373 posts

Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:26 AM


Does anybody here know the chemical composition of Peng Hui?


It's mugwort potash, so I assume potassium hydroxide (basically, the older form of lye, which these days is more often sodium hydroxide from what I understand).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potash


Please do a lot of research. Sodium hydroxide is very very VERY corrosive.

Is your stomach made of stainless steel?

dcarch

#117 Shalmanese

Shalmanese
  • participating member
  • 3,442 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:27 PM



Does anybody here know the chemical composition of Peng Hui?


It's mugwort potash, so I assume potassium hydroxide (basically, the older form of lye, which these days is more often sodium hydroxide from what I understand).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potash


Please do a lot of research. Sodium hydroxide is very very VERY corrosive.

Is your stomach made of stainless steel?

dcarch


Noodle recipes contain about 0.1% NaOH which is well below a lethal dose.
PS: I am a guy.

#118 slkinsey

slkinsey
  • eGullet Society staff emeritus
  • 11,106 posts
  • Location:New York, New York

Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:40 PM

I don't believe these are made with potassium hydroxide but rather with potassium carbonate.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

#119 Ader1

Ader1
  • participating member
  • 148 posts

Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:46 PM

This is what I found regarding the composition of Peng Hui....The chemical composition of instant Peng ash is Sodium: 8% ~ 40%, and potassium: 0% ~ 18%, and chloride: 6% ~ 50%, and sulfur: 0.08% ~ 2%. This cam from a Chinese book written about La Mian 'Hand pulled noodles'. I can't tell you how accurate that is but the translation is correct. A friend of mine telephoned the company which makes Peng Hui and they wouldn't tell her what was in it. I wanted to find out if I could take some to Europe with me. They didn't seem interested and said that it would not be possible because it's a white powder and rather difficult to do these days with the tightened security of the last few years.

#120 avaserfi

avaserfi
  • eGullet Society staff emeritus
  • 379 posts

Posted 25 August 2012 - 05:17 PM

Some of them noodles are quite thin. Well done. Are you lifting the noodles off the table completely? I've seen some noodle pulling where the puller allows gravity to do it's work to some degree. This is not correct. Noodles should be made by pulling alone and kept on the table.....bench.


The noodles were stretched by my pulling motion alone, not gravity.
Andrew Vaserfirer aka avaserfi

Host, eG Forums

avaserfirer@egstaff.org



eG Ethics Signatory





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Chinese