Jump to content


Welcome to the eG Forums!

These forums are a service of the Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, a 501c3 nonprofit organization dedicated to advancement of the culinary arts. Anyone can read the forums, however if you would like to participate in active discussions please join the Society.

Photo

What sauces do you consider the "Mother Sauces"?


  • Please log in to reply
44 replies to this topic

#31 David Hensley

David Hensley
  • participating member
  • 144 posts
  • Location:Roanoke, VA

Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:16 PM

The sauce consisting of hollandaise and whipped cream is a sauce Royale....


  • judiu and annabelle like this

I'm a lifelong professional chef. If that doesn't explain some of my mental and emotional quirks, maybe you should see a doctor, and have some of yours examined...


#32 ChefBryn

ChefBryn
  • participating member
  • 1 posts

Posted 06 January 2014 - 07:32 AM

The 5 'Classical' mother sauces are :

 

Béchamel

Espagnole

Hollandaise

Tomato

Velouté

 

This comes from my training manual's at Le Cordon Bleu. 

 

Vinaigrette is NOT a mother sauce.



#33 annabelle

annabelle
  • participating member
  • 1,956 posts
  • Location:Grand Lake o' the Cherokees, Oklahoma

Posted 06 January 2014 - 08:05 AM

That has been the argument, chefbryn.  Escoffier and Careme say it is.

 

I had said that tomat was not a mother sauce and was corrected upthread.  It was added by Escoffier to Antonin Careme's five Mother Sauces, which included vinaigrette.  So, we were both right depending on which century we were speaking of.

 

In this case, Le Cordon Bleu or your instructors are inaccurate.



#34 Blether

Blether
  • participating member
  • 1,703 posts
  • Location:Tokyo

Posted 06 January 2014 - 08:18 AM

As I understand it, in L'art de la Cuisine, Careme said:

 

Veloute

Bechamel

Espagnole

Allemande

 

and in Le Guide Culinaire, Escoffier said nah, Allemande's just a derivative of Veloute, and changed it to:

 

Veloute

Bechamel

Espagnole

Hollandaise

Tomate

 

Just call me Wikibot.


Edited by Blether, 06 January 2014 - 08:18 AM.

  • judiu and annabelle like this

QUIET!  People are trying to pontificate.


#35 annabelle

annabelle
  • participating member
  • 1,956 posts
  • Location:Grand Lake o' the Cherokees, Oklahoma

Posted 06 January 2014 - 08:27 AM

Hey, Blether.  Wikipedia includes vinaigrette, citing Careme and Escoffier both.

 

This is a chicken and egg sort of a discussion.  I've seen it both ways, vinaigrette and no vinaigrette.


Edited by annabelle, 06 January 2014 - 08:28 AM.


#36 nickrey

nickrey
  • society donor
  • 2,230 posts
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:32 PM

As far as I am aware, Blether is correct in his assertion from primary sources (oh how I resisted using a pun there).

 

Wikipedia is subject to the vagaries of contributors and thus must be approached sceptically and definitely not used as an evidence base. Even so, I'm left wondering where on this page on mother sauces or this page on vinaigrettes is it included as a mother sauce.


Edited by nickrey, 06 January 2014 - 01:36 PM.

Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four.
Unless there are three other people." Orson Welles
My eG Foodblog


#37 pkeibel

pkeibel
  • participating member
  • 102 posts

Posted 06 January 2014 - 02:23 PM

Interesting that people quote Wikipedia for a reference, why not go to the source and end it. From Escoffier's Guide to Modern Cookery

 

The

 

Principal Kinds of Fonds de Cuisine (Foundation

Sauces and

 

Stocks)

The

 

principal kinds of fonds de cuisine are :—

1.

 

Ordinary and clarified consommes.

2.

 

The brown stock or " estouffade," game stocks, the bases

of

 

thickened gravies and of brown sauces.

3.

 

White stock, basis of white sauces.

4.

 

Fish stock.

5.

 

The various essences of poultry, game, fish, &c., the

complements

 

of small sauces.

6.

 

The various glazes : for meat, game, and poultry.

7.

 

The basic sauces : Espagnole,- Veloute, Bechamel,

Tomato,

 

and Hollandaise.

8.

 

The savoury jellies or aspics of old-fashioned cooking.

To

 

these kinds of stock, which, in short, represent the

buttresses of the

 

culinary edifice, must now be added the following

preparations,

 

which are, in a measure, the auxiliaries of

the

 

above :

1.

 

The roux, the cohering element in sauces.

2.

 

The " Mirepoix " and " Matignon " aromatic and

flavouring elements.

3.

 

The " Court-Bouillon " and the " Blancs."

4.

 

The various stuffings.

5.

 

The marinades.

6.

 

The various garnishes for soups, for relev^s, for entries,

&c.

 

("Duxelle," " Duchesse," " Dauphine," Pate a choux,

frying

 

batters, various Salpicons, Profiteroles, Royales CEufs

fil6s,

 

Diablotins, Pastes, &c.).



#38 Blether

Blether
  • participating member
  • 1,703 posts
  • Location:Tokyo

Posted 06 January 2014 - 03:30 PM

Interesting that people quote Wikipedia for a reference, why not go to the source and end it. From Escoffier's Guide to Modern Cookery...

 

 

No, I won't justify my love for Wikipedia.

 

Aristotle has a lot to answer for, and what's more, that was an awful long quote for one wee snippet.  Was that to cover up the fact you only own half a library ?  :wink:


Edited by Blether, 06 January 2014 - 03:31 PM.

  • judiu and annabelle like this

QUIET!  People are trying to pontificate.


#39 mkayahara

mkayahara
  • participating member
  • 1,837 posts
  • Location:Guelph, Ontario

Posted 07 January 2014 - 07:10 AM

The sauce consisting of hollandaise and whipped cream is a sauce Royale....

I've only ever heard it called a sauce mousseline.


Matthew Kayahara
Kayahara.ca
@mtkayahara

#40 David Hensley

David Hensley
  • participating member
  • 144 posts
  • Location:Roanoke, VA

Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:21 AM

I do believe you are correct...

 

Royale is Hollandaise, whipped cream and Veloute. As a sauce its a Royale, or used under a broiler, its a Glacage, I believe.

 

My mistake...


I'm a lifelong professional chef. If that doesn't explain some of my mental and emotional quirks, maybe you should see a doctor, and have some of yours examined...


#41 David Hensley

David Hensley
  • participating member
  • 144 posts
  • Location:Roanoke, VA

Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:04 PM

So, I have to ask...

 

Are we creating and defining a new mother sauce, or what? I really appreciated all of the responses that you all gave, but we still lack consensus...

 

Honestly, I tend to think of mayonnaise as a sauce, more so than vinaigrette. I'm also a savory Chef, primarily, so I cast my vote for a new hot sauce...rather than another cold one.

 

Any backers? Any fighters? I feel like we should discuss this further...


I'm a lifelong professional chef. If that doesn't explain some of my mental and emotional quirks, maybe you should see a doctor, and have some of yours examined...


#42 Tri2Cook

Tri2Cook
  • participating member
  • 3,671 posts
  • Location:Ontario, Canada

Posted 11 January 2014 - 05:27 AM

I think we've pretty much hashed it out. There's not much to discuss beyond the vinaigrette thing. I don't think any of us who answered your original question were looking to try to establish a new list or addition. Even if we did, it would only have relevance within this discussion. It wouldn't change what's already established and accepted by the culinary world in general.


It's kinda like wrestling a gorilla... you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is tired.

#43 ruthcooks

ruthcooks
  • eGullet Society staff emeritus
  • 1,099 posts

Posted 11 January 2014 - 03:06 PM

The one that always seems out of place to me is Veloute.  What is it but a Bechamel, with stock substituting for milk?


  • mkayahara and David Hensley like this
Ruth Dondanville aka "ruthcooks"

“Are you making a statement, or are you making dinner?” Mario Batali

#44 David Hensley

David Hensley
  • participating member
  • 144 posts
  • Location:Roanoke, VA

Posted 26 January 2014 - 09:10 AM

I always wondered the same, Ruth....


I'm a lifelong professional chef. If that doesn't explain some of my mental and emotional quirks, maybe you should see a doctor, and have some of yours examined...


#45 JoNorvelleWalker

JoNorvelleWalker
  • participating member
  • 1,382 posts
  • Location:New Jersey USA

Posted 26 January 2014 - 01:42 PM

For what it's worth I notice Moderist Cuisine's definition of mother sauces follows Careme.