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What sauces do you consider the "Mother Sauces"?


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#1 David Hensley

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:22 PM

Ok, here's the deal. I have a friend, who has almost 40yrs in the business, and I've recently discovered that he considers his Mother sauces to be: Bechamel, Veloute', Hollandaise, Espagnole, and Vinaigrette.

Am I alone in my thought that this is incorrect ?!!? I've always been quite a food history buff, and at NO point do ever recall hearing, or reading Vinaigrette as being a Mother sauce....

 

Any input, ideas, hypothesis, philosophy or otherwise welcome...

 

 

 

 

I think the pic explains why I ask...I need proof positive, before I begin busting his balls publicly....

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#2 chezcherie

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:39 PM

i've heard people refer to vinaigrette and mayonnaise as the cold mother sauces, but your friend is def missing tomato. bummer.


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#3 annabelle

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:10 PM

Tomato is not a Mother sauce.

 

Patissier?  Since when? 



#4 mkayahara

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:21 PM

Tomato is not a Mother sauce.

Monsieur Escoffier begs to differ.


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#5 David Hensley

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:55 PM

Tomato is not a Mother sauce.

 

Patissier?  Since when? 

The patissiere is in reference to his proclamation as a pastry Chef. Nevermind that he makes is cakes from boxes...always...everytime. "Why should I make something, when Duncan Hines does the work?"


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#6 David Hensley

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:59 PM

i've heard people refer to vinaigrette and mayonnaise as the cold mother sauces, but your friend is def missing tomato. bummer.

 I, personally, have not, and this is why I'm bothered by this...

 

 

If its cold, its a dressing. If hot, a sauce. There are technicalities, and verbal protocols, that make some kind of difference, but generally speaking...I think a friend got a dumbass tattoo...


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#7 Norm Matthews

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:10 PM

A few years ago when I was still watching the Food Network, I noticed Bobby Flay did some sauces which I would consider vinaigrette based.  He used oil and acid when cooking meat dishes and would add other ingredients too, like tomatoes.  Someone told me what this kind of approach was called but I don't remember.  The result were sauces for meat that were lighter than some of the more traditional heavy sauces.  BTW, I consider Sauce Veloute a mother sauce too. 

 

In the James Beard Fish Cookery, he has a chapter on sauces and one if them is Sauce Mayonnaise.  It is the 'mother' of quite a number of other - sauces, all cold or room temp.

 

edit, my bad. The first time I looked, I didn't see that he does have sauce veloute.


Edited by Norm Matthews, 02 January 2014 - 08:26 PM.


#8 annabelle

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:12 PM

I'm not going to argue with Escoffier.


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#9 gfweb

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:17 PM

Escoffier defined the mother sauces.  I suppose each of us can choose to redefine it but I'd say its his term and his list.


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#10 Norm Matthews

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:49 PM

Partial quote from https://stellaculina...r-all-resources

 

The French mother sauces were originally four base sauces set forth by Antonin Careme in the 19th century. Careme’s four original mother sauces were Sauce TomatBechamelVeloute andEspagnole. Then in the 20th century, Chef Auguste Escoffier added the fifth and final mother saucehollandaise, with its derivatives covering almost all forms of classical emulsion sauces including mayonnaise.


Edited by Norm Matthews, 02 January 2014 - 09:00 PM.

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#11 DiggingDogFarm

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:53 PM

The classification of all sauces into the four original mother sauces groups.....Bechamel, Sauce Tomat,  Veloute and Espagnole.....was Marie-Antoine Carême's doing.

Auguste Escoffier added the fifth mother sauce....Hollandaise.


Edited by DiggingDogFarm, 02 January 2014 - 08:54 PM.

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#12 pastrygirl

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:57 PM

Food Lovers Companion, 3rd edition: It was the 19th century French chef Antonin Careme who evolved an intricate methodology by which hundreds of derivative sauces were classified under one of four "mother" sauces. Those are: espagnole (brown stock-based), bechamel (milk-based), veloute (white stock-based) and allemande (egg-enriched veloute). Add to these a fifth group - emulsified sauces such as hollandaise and mayonnaise.

Curious that she listed allemande instead of tomato. But still no vinaigrette!

Edited by pastrygirl, 02 January 2014 - 08:59 PM.

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#13 David Hensley

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:37 PM

Thank you all! I see a lot of my own thinking reflected here, but also some of my own self-contrary opinions.

I agree with all of your findings, oddly enough...I've never claimed to master my craft, only love it.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and only lightly bust his balls in public...

 

I'm still curious though...can we collectively agree upon when this happened, if it's happened at all?


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#14 Norm Matthews

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:39 PM

Vinaigrette is or can be emulsified. It's a stretch to put it in the same category as hollandaise though. Vinaigrette can be used as a sauce or marinade as well as a dressing. 

 

If Antonin Careme came up with 4 in the 19th century and Auguste Escoffier added one in the 20th, maybe its time to add one for the 21st.


Edited by Norm Matthews, 02 January 2014 - 09:43 PM.

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#15 David Hensley

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 10:58 AM

I'm more or less inclined to agree, Norm. I like the idea of a new sauce family, but I don't know that something as variable as vinaigrette would be the best choice...


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#16 mkayahara

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:33 PM

I'm more or less inclined to agree, Norm. I like the idea of a new sauce family, but I don't know that something as variable as vinaigrette would be the best choice...

I think that's exactly what makes it a good choice as a mother sauce!


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#17 bonkboo

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 02:06 PM

Fwiw Michael Ruhlman in his Ruhlman's 20 book titles a chapter Vinaigrette: the fifth mother sauce. This is right after a chapter on sauces. He discusses his reasoning why especially for a home cook it's a versatile saucing technique.

#18 pastrygirl

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:04 PM

My pastry mother sauces:

Caramel
Coulis
Creme anglaise
Hot fudge
Chantilly

:)

Edited by pastrygirl, 03 January 2014 - 06:04 PM.

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#19 annabelle

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:59 PM

I like your mother sauces best, pastrygirl.


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#20 David Hensley

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 02:16 PM

I still don't know that I'm on board for making vinaigrette a mother sauce. I think that a mother sauce should be defined by something that begins more basically, and has many permutations extendable from it. With a basic vinaigrette, the most basic forms are many and sundry, due to the astounding array of vinegars and oils upon which you could base said vinaigrette. That being said...I would have no problem codifying and organizing  all cold sauces such as mayo and vinaigrette, into a more classic mother-daughter format...


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#21 annabelle

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 02:28 PM

I watched one of the BBC shows a few months ago, Master Chef, maybe.  One of the challenges was to prepare a hollandaise and two or three sauces that used it as a base.  One used whipped whole cream, one became a bernaise and the third was infused with blood orange.  I can't for the life of me remember what their names were.  It was impressive to watch the chefs make all four sauces in about 20 minutes.  Take that! Top Chefs.

 

Escoffier includes vinaigrette as a mother sauce, so I guess we just learn to live with it.


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#22 David Hensley

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 03:22 PM

I will not simply live with it, damnit! There are five mother sauces, of which vinaigrette is NOT one...

 

I agree that vinaigrette is a sauce, and a very useful one at that, but it is not a mother sauce, in the proper context thereof...

 

Too bad Escoffier is long dead, otherwise I'd be blowing up HIS inbox, instead of bothering all of my good friends at egullet... :wacko:


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#23 Tri2Cook

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 04:05 PM

As far as I'm concerned, bechamel, veloute, espagnole, tomat and hollandaise are the (French) mother sauces. I won't argue with anyone who includes vinaigrette, they have Escoffier on their side, but I don't include it if asked. I do like pastrygirl's list...


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#24 David Hensley

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 04:46 PM

I'm also quite fond of pastrygirls list, and I've wondered for many years why desserts didn't always get their own family of sauces...salads too, for that matter (theres your damned viniagrette, people!) LOL

 

I stand by my original statement, while openly accepting the myriad possibilities....


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#25 David Hensley

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:21 PM

Holy Shit!

 

I just talked to him, and he got the tattoo done like that, because viniagrette "looked" better than tomato...

 

I love this guy dearly...but the ball-busting is truly about to begin...LMAO

 

:wacko: :shock:


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#26 pastrygirl

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:42 PM

The patissiere is in reference to his proclamation as a pastry Chef. Nevermind that he makes his cakes from boxes...always...everytime. "Why should I make something, when Duncan Hines does the work?"

 
 

I just talked to him, and he got the tattoo done like that, because viniagrette "looked" better than tomato...
 
I love this guy dearly...but the ball-busting is truly about to begin...LMAO


OMG. Please bust his balls a little extra for me.
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#27 David Hensley

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:53 PM

So I shall, pastrygirl!

 

I really like your own classes of sauce for pastry...It reminds me of the thoughts I had in culinary school, before my instructors reminded me that I was NOT Escoffier, and likely never would be...

 

Is this something you devised of your own accord?


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#28 judiu

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 06:52 PM

Hmmm, "Quote" button is not cooperating tonight! Annabelle, the sauce with blood orange is Maltaise, but on the others, I should know, but I don't. %(
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#29 pastrygirl

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 06:58 PM

So I shall, pastrygirl!
 
I really like your own classes of sauce for pastry...It reminds me of the thoughts I had in culinary school, before my instructors reminded me that I was NOT Escoffier, and likely never would be...
 
Is this something you devised of your own accord?


It's not a code I live by or anything, just answering the question in the title :)

#30 David Hensley

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 07:05 PM

Quite a good answer! Why wouldn't you live by it?


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