47 replies to this topic

[Fat Guy]

I wonder if we can get a list of 10. I was thinking about 2 of them, and thought this topic would be worth starting:

1. Most of the famous places are using the same smoked salmon (Acme).

2. Most of the renowned sellers of fresh mozzarella are making it from purchased curds (from Polly-O).

Anything else along these lines?

[weinoo]

I wonder if we can get a list of 10. I was thinking about 2 of them, and thought this topic would be worth starting:

1. Most of the famous places are using the same smoked salmon (Acme).

I was surprised, but recently I led a tour group, and we started at Russ & Daughters. Mark Russ Federman, the 3rd generation Russ, told me that they get their smoked salmon from a number of different sources.

Which I guess proves your first point.

[Fat Guy]

Here's the NYT article on smoked salmon, from a few years back:

http://www.nytimes.c...ine/14food.html
"If you've ever taken sides in a debate over which New York purveyor has the best smoked salmon, you might be surprised to learn that Zabar's, Citarella, Balducci's, Costco and Wegmans — in fact most grocers on the East and West Coasts, in the Midwest and even a few in Puerto Rico — buy their fish in large part from the same smokehouse: Acme Smoked Fish."

[rotuts]

Ill go with the NYTimes on this one. Maybe some places specify fish smoked there that might originate in different places.

the article did point out that its handled differently at different retail places.

[weinoo]

Here's the NYT article on smoked salmon, from a few years back:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/magazine/14food.html
"If you've ever taken sides in a debate over which New York purveyor has the best smoked salmon, you might be surprised to learn that Zabar's, Citarella, Balducci's, Costco and Wegmans — in fact most grocers on the East and West Coasts, in the Midwest and even a few in Puerto Rico — buy their fish in large part from the same smokehouse: Acme Smoked Fish."

Of course, none of those are true "appetizing" stores like Russ & Daughters. And let's face facts: there might be 100 places buying from Acme; they're not all getting the same product.

How about this one: Peter Luger gets all the top quality porterhouses?

[gfweb]

Great meat for consumers at a fair price is non-existent as far as I can see. I can believe that steakhouses get all the good stuff.

[weinoo]

Great meat for consumers at a fair price is non-existent as far as I can see. I can believe that steakhouses get all the good stuff.

But the old thought was that Luger's used to get it all. I'd say that's not true anymore, and I think it's easier for consumers to get good beef (though a fair price might be tough indeed).

[Fat Guy]

I think Peter Luger still consistently has better porterhouses than anyone else, so to me that's not a myth. I think, however, the quality of steak available retail has improved quite a bit over the past decade or so. The average supermarket has worse steak now than when I was a kid, but you can now get steakhouse-quality steak at all sorts of places ranging from Debragga online to Fairway (their dry-aged Prime is probably the best deal in town) to Eataly. It's not cheap, though.

[Shalmanese]

Where's the debunking of the Polly-O?

[Fat Guy]

In other words, there has long been a persistent myth that all these places make homemade fresh mozzarella. The average schmoe just assumes these places are making cheese on premises. The reality is that they're all buying curds from industrial producers like Polly-O.

Likewise, there's all this talk about whose smoked salmon is best, but everybody is getting it from Acme.

[rotuts]

it would be interesting to know if the salmon they get from Acme is tiered, random, or selected by the buyer. every slab from acme cant be identical.

[Fat Guy]

No, though with farmed it can be close.

[Shalmanese]

In other words, there has long been a persistent myth that all these places make homemade fresh mozzarella. The average schmoe just assumes these places are making cheese on premises. The reality is that they're all buying curds from industrial producers like Polly-O.

Likewise, there's all this talk about whose smoked salmon is best, but everybody is getting it from Acme.

Oh, I completely misunderstood your OP then. I thought you meant that the two you listed were commonly believed but false.

I think most people would be surprised to find that most high end burger joints are getting their ground meat from the same supplier and many high end joints (including, at one point, shake shack) use bought, frozen fries.

[Catherine Iino]

New York City bagels/pizza are unique and better because of the NYC water in them.

[weinoo]

New York City bagels/pizza are unique and better because of the NYC water in them.

But...aren't they?

Does any other city know for either its bagels or its pizza have the same quality municipal water?

[Fat Guy]

The bagels are better on Long Island and the pizza is better in Connecticut, Arizona and California -- or at least they have very fine, top-of-pyramid examples in each of those watersheds. I can't see it being the water, nor have I heard of any evidence for the proposition.

[rotuts]

best pizza is surely in New Haven, CT

[gfweb]

best pizza is surely in New Haven, CT

Snicker

[rotuts]

Pepe's

http://www.pepespizzeria.com/

they use imported NYC water.

[weinoo]

The bagels are better on Long Island and the pizza is better in Connecticut, Arizona and California -- or at least they have very fine, top-of-pyramid examples in each of those watersheds. I can't see it being the water, nor have I heard of any evidence for the proposition.

While there might be one pizza place in Arizona that is, on occasion, better than most of the pizza here in NYC, on an overall basis, I have a feeling the pizza in NY is better than that in Arizona, California (where?) and Connecticut.

As far as evidence for water goes, here's what's happening at Bianco:

Bianco described his pizza to Ed Levine in the New York Times, “There’s no mystery to my pizza. Sicilian oregano, organic flour, San Marzano tomatoes, purified water,

So he's not using unadulterated muni water.

Nancy Silverton has always promoted the use of bottled or purified water. If you've ever tasted the water from the tap in Southern California, you're not drinking it and you're not using it like that for cooking.

"The pizza is better in Connecticut" is just a blanket statement that makes zero sense. I have heard no evidence for that proposition. Often, I hear that the pizza in Connecticut isn't all it's cranked up to be and not worth the schlep.

[rotuts]

Youve heard wrong:

Pepe's

White Clam Pizza, Bacon pizza. worth the wait, and the traveling.

Now youve heard truth.

[weinoo]

As a matter of fact, I just pulled out 4 bread baking books. Each and every one discusses tap water, and without getting into too many details, discusses the use of bottled and/or purified water if the muni water is too hard, too soft, too chlorinated, or too crappy to drink. NYC water is none of those.

[weinoo]

Youve heard wrong:

Pepe's

White Clam Pizza, Bacon pizza. worth the wait, and the traveling.

Now youve heard truth.

Thanks. I was waiting for that.

Do you know what kind of water they're using?

[rotuts]

what ever water they are using it marries with the white clam, and the bacon. those are the only two pizzas I get there when I can. their cheese is somehow as good as it gets too.

their oven is very old also so it migh have a veneer of taste built in.

thats the only CT pizza place that matters. there is another fav. in N.Haven, but its not Pepe's

[Panaderia Canadiense]

New York City bagels/pizza are unique and better because of the NYC water in them.

But...aren't they?

Does any other city know for either its bagels or its pizza have the same quality municipal water?

Montreal, at least on the bagels end of it. I'd say that the NYC water/bagels thing is definitely a myth.

[weinoo]

Oh, I didn't see your post above. Pepe's seriously uses NYC tap water? Any proof of that?

[weinoo]

New York City bagels/pizza are unique and better because of the NYC water in them.

But...aren't they?

Does any other city know for either its bagels or its pizza have the same quality municipal water?

Montreal, at least on the bagels end of it. I'd say that the NYC water/bagels thing is definitely a myth.

Montreal bagels are, in my opinion, quite less than delicious.

But the bagel thing goes beyond water. It goes to the size of bagels now, and making bagels without boiling them.

[Panaderia Canadiense]

New York City bagels/pizza are unique and better because of the NYC water in them.

But...aren't they?

Does any other city know for either its bagels or its pizza have the same quality municipal water?

Montreal, at least on the bagels end of it. I'd say that the NYC water/bagels thing is definitely a myth.

Montreal bagels are, in my opinion, quite less than delicious.

But the bagel thing goes beyond water. It goes to the size of bagels now, and making bagels without boiling them.

SACRILEGE!

Well, at least the Monreal bagels being less than delish....

Although I do agree with the bagel thing being more than just the water used in the dough - size, lack of boil, all of these things have contributed to a declining standard of bagelness. Personally, I don't think they can be called "bagels" if they're not boiled - the word itself refers to this process, and it's essential in the bagelmaking process.

[weinoo]

Although I do agree with the bagel thing being more than just the water used in the dough - size, lack of boil, all of these things have contributed to a declining standard of bagelness. Personally, I don't think they can be called "bagels" if they're not boiled - the word itself refers to this process, and it's essential in the bagelmaking process.

Sorry, but I don't think that's what it means.

[rotuts]

sorry. I 'made up' the NYC water thing for Pepe's Trying to tie in to the thread. Its a very unpretentious place. I can imagine the oven has a lot to do with it (patina) and simple imgredients.

Bagels now days seem to be made more for sandwiches than a simple shemeare (SP?) In The Day they were crusty and chewy and smaller.

Not now in anyplace Ive been to, maybe still in NYC somewhere?

(pls see new topic re Pepe's and deFara's)