152 replies to this topic

[David Ross]

I should add that the recipe I followed instructed one to add the cream at the last "few" minutes of cooking--don't stir it in too early and let it cook for hours.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Okay, now I really need clarification. I can't get my arms around this sequence: "add the cream at the last "few" minutes of cooking--don't stir it in too early and let it cook for hours".

So, when should we add the cream (or milk?) When should we start stirring? How many hours?

Perhaps I read too quickly but what recipe did you follow?

[nickrey]

If you are using milk, add it early and cook it off. If you are using cream, add it at the last minute to enrichen the sauce.

[David Ross]

Okay, now I really need clarification. I can't get my arms around this sequence: "add the cream at the last "few" minutes of cooking--don't stir it in too early and let it cook for hours".

So, when should we add the cream (or milk?) When should we start stirring? How many hours?

Perhaps I read too quickly but what recipe did you follow?

It was the aforementioned recipe from the Time-Life Series the Foods of the World: The Food of Italy. Per the recipe I didn't add the milk or cream early on and let the sauce cook for hours. The sauce had already cooked for about 4 hours. In both the milk batch and the cream batch I added it the last few minutes of the cooking process and stirred it a few times to incorporate it into the sauce and to insure the sauce was heated well.

[Shelby]

Okay, now I really need clarification. I can't get my arms around this sequence: "add the cream at the last "few" minutes of cooking--don't stir it in too early and let it cook for hours".

So, when should we add the cream (or milk?) When should we start stirring? How many hours?

Perhaps I read too quickly but what recipe did you follow?

I followed Marcella Hazan's cookbook The Essentials of Classic Italian Cooking



She says to cook the meat in milk before adding wine and tomatoes due to the taste that the acid would cause.

[Shelby]

Whew, what a great meal!!

Finished product:








I made some homemade bread sticks and some green beans to go along side.


Thanks for a great learning experience and a great topic!!!

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Many thanks, nickrey, David and Shelby. It all goes to support the the old-country grandmother authenticity rule: mine is right, yours is wrong. But all delicious.

[David Ross]

Many thanks, nickrey, David and Shelby. It all goes to support the the old-country grandmother authenticity rule: mine is right, yours is wrong. But all delicious.

Great job in the kitchen--so far. ScottyBoy has promised us his take on Bolognese. Shelby, tell us how all the duck flavors worked.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

....We don't have much in terms of fresh-made pasta where I live... I love Pappardelle, but the brand I bought is somewhat thin and falls apart quickly....

Dave, since making fresh pasta is far from rocket science, might this be a subject of one of your future cook-offs? Flour and water (egg or not) and a will to eat pasta? Some years ago when I had several high metabolism males at table, I used to turn out a fresh pasta most nights a week. It's a simple feat that should be revived and made part of our general repertory.

[David Ross]

....We don't have much in terms of fresh-made pasta where I live... I love Pappardelle, but the brand I bought is somewhat thin and falls apart quickly....

Dave, since making fresh pasta is far from rocket science, might this be a subject of one of your future cook-offs? Flour and water (egg or not) and a will to eat pasta? Some years ago when I had several high metabolism males at table, I used to turn out a fresh pasta most nights a week. It's a simple feat that should be revived and made part of our general repertory.

Definately a good subject for another Cook-Off.

[janeer]

I am sorry I was not able to participate in the actual cook-off. I make Bolognese frequently, esp in winter, but have been so busy I can barely fix myself an egg. I add whole milk after reducing the wine, and do two or three reductions of the meat in milk before adding the tomato and simmering. I don't use cream.

[nickrey]

Many thanks, nickrey, David and Shelby. It all goes to support the the old-country grandmother authenticity rule: mine is right, yours is wrong. But all delicious.

I've never subscribed to the grandmother principle. Everything I recommend is done for a specific reason.

Adding ingredients at different times means that they will cook differently and have a different impact on the taste.

You add cream or butter to a dish as a finishing element after it has finished its key cooking, otherwise it splits. Same thing applies to vinegar, which loses its volatility and the sourness that you want it to achieve if you cook it.

You can cook and reduce cream, which I do in one of my pepper sauces. This reduces and caramelises to provide a counterpoint to the heat of the pepper. But I'd never do this in a Bolognese as it would detract from the meat profile with an unnecessary sweetness.

[Mjx]

. . . . I never had a clue what sugo meant and leftover sauce from braised meat is one of my favorite things! I looked up several definitions of sugo and it can be as basic as "sauce" which I think is a little misleading, or as specific as: "a sauce made by adding stock, flour or other ingredients to the juice and fat that is rendered from cooked meat." That is also a little misleading, since in my mind that is gravy--as in what happens when the turkey comes out of the oven. Not to be confused with what Margaret Pilgim noted is "sunday gravy" which often refers to the whole pot of braised meats that is then divided and served in two parts: the meat, and a portion of pasta al sugo. I prefer a broader more middle-ground approach as Sam describes above, meaning simply the sauce without the meat that cooked in it. That way it applies to what I love about the leftovers of Coq au Vin: the chicken is long gone, but the sauce on rice is the last meal.

Apparently sugo is from the Latin "to suck" (and that would be suck in the best possible way.) As in serve the succulent sauce that is left over after the meat has been eaten or removed over some yummy carbs (whether pasta, polenta or rice) and suck. It. Up.

To get back on topic, I did make a Bolognese once, from a Batali recipe. I don't think it was a bad recipe, but I came to the conclusion that I simply don't like the idea of milk in a meat-based sauce.

Specifically, in Italian 'sugo' means juice.

Incidentally, dairy is by no means a 'must' in ragù bolognese: There are plenty of food historians/bolognesi who are as vehement about not using milk, cream, or either, as insist that it is key! If you speak even a little italian, do an online search for something like [ragù bolognese latte crema sì o no?], and enjoy the flying fur

[Shelby]

Many thanks, nickrey, David and Shelby. It all goes to support the the old-country grandmother authenticity rule: mine is right, yours is wrong. But all delicious.

Great job in the kitchen--so far. ScottyBoy has promised us his take on Bolognese. Shelby, tell us how all the duck flavors worked.

They worked beautifully together. I ended up adding 5 chicken livers, too. They made the dish a bit more creamy, but definitely not too livery. Just a hint of that mineral taste, you know?

[Paul Bacino]

Just started my Ragu!!





25 Oz Homer Rabbit with Liver--Native in Nebraska, raised in Homer
5 Oz La Quercia Pancetta -- this has a we bit of an Anise flavor to it
1 carrot
1 celery
1 onion --Garden Raised I am using a 2 onion-1 carrot --1 celery
1 Tomato--Garden raised
1t Paste Hunts
Nob of Parm rind

Splash of white italian wine and My venison stock ( which I had to call the extension service in nebraska to fine out about chronic wasting ds before I made it) pepper and 3 small bay leaf

I cooked it as I would put my Sunday gravy together!! Now it will braise and I shred it later and finish.

Now about the pasta-- I'm thinking of making green ribbon ( spinach added ), just to get back to all my yard pesky rabbits that eat my garden spinach and produce!!

Edit: I Put in 1 Dried Porcini

Edited by Paul Bacino, 13 November 2011 - 10:01 AM.

[Paul Bacino]

So I choose to leave the meat on the bone, now a low cook, so into the oven

[Tri2Cook]

So I'm reading through Blumenthal's 'spag bol' recipe and it says to simmer uncovered, but to top up with water as required so everything is always under liquid. How would this differ from simmering with the lid either on, or partly on? If the aim to maintain the same amount of liquid, surely leaving the lid on would help retain flavours? Even partly on would allow a trickle of condensation back into the pot that presumably has more flavour than plain water?

Not sure about that one. I enjoy the "Perfection" books more for the look into how and why he did certain things and why he didn't do others than for the actual recipes. I like that he's not afraid to ruffle the feathers of tradition while respecting it at the same time.

[Paul Bacino]

My finished Chopped Rabbit Ragu.

Bolognese?

Chopped vs grind meat ? I tended to chop mine, even if I use veal and Pork or beef

Better to serve the next day after a rest ?

[Mjx]

The ragù bolognese, over pasta:



We couldn't find pappardelle – hard to find where we live, for some reason – but my boyfriend was really happy with the way the sauce worked with rigatoni (I had mine over rice – not a great texture combination – because my joints were playing up too much for me to risk eating wheat-based pasta, and I couldn't find any remotely decent rice-based pasta).

I'm really happy with the addition of the gelatine, and my two recipe sources in general: I definitely recommend them both.

I discovered earlier today that I'd flaked and forgotten about a quarter of the pancetta, when I put it in the refrigerator to re-chill, since it was getting difficult to chop up, which probably explains why I needed to add some fat when I sautéed the vegetable.

My finished Chopped Rabbit Ragu.

Bolognese?

Might instead deserve to be honoured by being called a game ragù

. . . .Better to serve the next day after a rest ?

Mine definitely improved over a 24-hour period, became more balanced. I really like the way strongly-flavoured things develop over a little time, as compared to when they're first finished. Yesterday, the ragù I made had an aggressive liver note that was gone today, and no one ingredient leapt out and dominated; the flavour was very rich and seamless.

[David Ross]

Many thanks, nickrey, David and Shelby. It all goes to support the the old-country grandmother authenticity rule: mine is right, yours is wrong. But all delicious.

I've never subscribed to the grandmother principle. Everything I recommend is done for a specific reason.

Adding ingredients at different times means that they will cook differently and have a different impact on the taste.

You add cream or butter to a dish as a finishing element after it has finished its key cooking, otherwise it splits. Same thing applies to vinegar, which loses its volatility and the sourness that you want it to achieve if you cook it.

You can cook and reduce cream, which I do in one of my pepper sauces. This reduces and caramelises to provide a counterpoint to the heat of the pepper. But I'd never do this in a Bolognese as it would detract from the meat profile with an unnecessary sweetness.

Actually, I think you and Margaret are saying the same thing, i.e., "mine is right, yours is wrong, but all DELICIOUS!"

[Paul Bacino]

Well

I had to finish my dish!!

[David Ross]

Well

I had to finish my dish!!

Paul--Delicious. Based on what I see here, I need to make my own fresh spinach pasta ribbons. And by the way Mjx, I think the Bolognese over Rigatoni looks delicious.

[JTravel]

As I write I have a large pot on the flame tamer doing the final reduction. I followed a (the?) Marcella Hazan recipe from a Seattle Times article several years ago.
It's quite basic with the wilted veggies in fat, ground beef, salt and pepper, milk, white wine, a pinch of nutmeg and some mashed up canned tomatoes. I only changed it a bit, no celery and more onion, and red wine since that is what I had. Just guessing that I might have wanted to add more milk than she said.
I think this deserves some fresh pasta so I plan to make Mario's basic "countertop" dough and cut it in strips.
Looking forward to the fresh batch and quite a bit will be frozen in small batches.

[David Ross]

Wow, so many wonderful Bolognese dishes. Whether it's "traditional" or not, I think we opened the door into how a classic Italian sauce has so many possibilities for so many different tastes.

[Paul Bacino]

I revisited my Ragu a few days later, and I would have to say, what an improvement in flavors and I would say texture too. One of those dishes that I think a day ahead will help or at least this one.

paul

[David Ross]

I revisited my Ragu a few days later, and I would have to say, what an improvement in flavors and I would say texture too. One of those dishes that I think a day ahead will help or at least this one.

paul

I agree. I let one of my Bolognese sauces sit in the fridge for three days and it was much better when reheated.

[nickrey]

I freeze left over ragu and it seems to survive remarkably well, making a very quick and easy weekday evening meal over some freshly cooked pasta.

[slkinsey]

Here's how they make the ragu bolognese at Del Posto:

[David Ross]

Here's how they make the ragu bolognese at Del Posto:

I couldn't tell from the video, but it looked like they added milk rather than cream?

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I freeze left over ragu and it seems to survive remarkably well, making a very quick and easy weekday evening meal over some freshly cooked pasta.

As posted above, I make large quantities precisely to freeze for "kids'" fast food. And, yes, I have noticed that this sauce, like most braises, definitely improves in the refrigerator and possibly in the freezer as well.