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Minimalist No-Knead Bread Technique (Part 1)

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#31 snowangel

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 02:20 PM

Would my 7 quart oval LC pot work for this method, or is the pot too big?
Susan Fahning aka "snowangel"

#32 Fromartz

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 02:45 PM

Sullivan St has some very nice pictures of its breads on the web. I'm partial to the Filone but they are all great.

#33 Ruth

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 03:02 PM

I've never worked with yeast before, so forgive what may be a dumb question.
The recipe calls for using a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot and the pictures show the bread rising about half way up the sides. I've got a 4.5-quart LC oval pot I'd like to try this with. In your experience, will this work or do I need to bite the bullet and find a bigger pot?

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I took my loaf out of the oven an hour ago. It is beautiful and exactly as Leahy said it should be . I used a 5 qt oval le Creuset and had no problem. I think 4.5 qt might work but definitely nothing smaller as the dough might hit against the lid.
I think the recipe does not call for enough salt. That is the only fault I can find with it and easily remedied.


Ruth

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Did you use regular table salt or kosher salt?

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I never use table salt - sea salt or kosher

Edited by Ruth, 09 November 2006 - 03:04 PM.

Ruth Friedman

#34 Fromartz

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 03:18 PM

Thanks, I use a similar method but instead of a poolish I've been making a biga (10 percent starter, flour and water at 50 percent hydration) and letting it develop anywhere from 15-24 hours. Then making the dough at 70-75 percent hydration. It's tasty with BIG holes but I'm finding it a bit too chewy ...

I also bake on a stone and put the broiler pan on the bottom of the oven. I pour in about 1/4 cup of water before I put the loaf in, then add another 1 cup once it's in. It steams for about 15 minutes and gets a thin, crisp crust. I will try Lehay's method but it seems to only apply to boules and I prefer the Italian loaf or baguette shape.

I posted these pictures on another forum here. The one on the right is a bit overproofed.
Posted Image





Devlin,

Gorgeous breads. I'm curious, what hydration do you use, when you say you don't knead?

Also I was curious that Lehay lets the bread develop 12 hours at room temperature - most sourdough recipes I've used call for a retard in the refrig because the dough would proof too long at 70 F. Do you find that to be the case?

Thanks, Sam (an avid home baker)

For illustrative purposes, if you'd like to see my own results, you can check out my web site (pics head several of the pages there):

The Village Bakery

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Sorry I'm so long in responding, and you may have already gotten some answers. I'm not entirely sure the exact hydration of my breads, but they're roughly 65-75%, and the one I can't fold by hand but needs bench scrapers is 80% at least. It's more nearly poolish consistency from start through build-up and baking.

I've never simply let a dough sit for 12 hours without refreshing, so I can't comment on that particular method. I go through a fermentation process, with a basic sort of poolish starter, and that sits at room temp for anywhere from 12 to 17 hours. And then I add the remaining flour and water and whatever other ingredients specific to the particular bread, and then it rises from 2 to 4 hours, turning every hour, with a rise of roughly an hour in the final hour.

And, of course, I don't use anything but the floor of the oven for baking. No pots, no pans, etc. But even when I was baking my breads in the beginning in my electric oven, I simply put the breads directly on a pre-heated oven stone to bake (the one super wet dough on parchment).

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#35 rxrfrx

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 03:20 PM

Here's a loaf I made a couple weeks ago. The hydration is about 70-75%. This was kneaded, so it's not really an example of no-knead technique, but it did use only a half-pinch of IDY and a 36-hour fermentation (a poolish stage and then a second stage after adding more flour and salt). It was cooked in a Schlemmertopf clay baker.

Posted Image

Edited by rxrfrx, 09 November 2006 - 04:40 PM.


#36 cognitivefun

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 06:03 PM

I'm bad at following directions. Here's what I did.

I created probably 80% hydration sourdough dough with about 6 cups flour, 2tspns salt, and refrigerated overnight, and then let rise about 8 hours.

Then I proofed for about 2, preheated the oven with a Dutch oven in it to 450F. It was too hydrated to get much surface tension into it although I tried.

I was a little apprehensive about getting the dough into the pot. But that was pretty easy. I covered and baked for 30 minutes then uncovered and baked for another 10 until the internal temperature was 205F.

My loaf had no oven spring and I think I should have baked it longer, perhaps at a lower temperature, maybe 425F.

It has a marvelous reddish crunchy crust that my bread hasn't had before and it tasted very good although I shouldn't have sneaked a slice as it wasn't yet cool.

I will definintely try this again and refine it for my style which is 1) sourdough, and 2) refrigerated immediately upon mixing, for 1 or 2 days.

#37 SparrowsFall

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 06:42 PM

'kay, I started a batch of this within five minutes of spotting the article. (Finished reading it as I worked.)

Worked pretty well--looks *beautiful*--but various issues/ideas/thoughts:

1. It was so wet even after 18 hours that the idea of "folding" it as instructed was like folding pudding. Couldn't put it in the pot seam-side up as instructed because there weren't no seam. Two possible reasons:

a. It's a volume- (not weight-)measure recipe so it's possible there was too little flour--flour-to-water ratio was short.

b. My house thermostat kicks down at night to about sixty, so maybe it didn't do enough fermenting to build the glutens/align the proteins. Longer time or consistent warmth might change that.

2. When I pulled it out of the oven it had a great crunchy crust, but by the time it cooled it was chewy not crunchy. I only cooked it to light/medium brown (15 minutes after the pot lid came off), not dark brown. That might explain it.

3. The internal bubbles are beautiful, but the texture is much more elastic, even rubbery, than I tend to like. Would prefer more crumby. I wonder if one of the following would change that:

a. higher flour-to-water ratio
b. longer/more fermentation
c. longer/browner cooking

4. I am an almost obsessively minimalist bread baker. Read: lazy. (My everyday toast/sandwich white bread involves 5 minutes/2 hours rising/form into loaves (never touching the bread board which would require cleaning)/half hour rising/bake.) So this recipe is *way* attractive to me. Drawbacks:

a. It really gums up the bread board, which then must be cleaned. (Which in turn gums up the sponge... I told you I'm lazy.)

b. It *really* gums up the towel that's recommended. Pain to clean.

BTW, it does *not* stick to the pan as I feared. If I get good success with this I'll devote a pot to it that I rarely or never bother to clean, like my bread pans.

I have another batch fermenting now (which seems to be a bit drier). I'm going to try minimalizing it even more, going straight from the bowl (maybe knocking/stirring it down once for a second rising) into the hot pot, forming it a little bit with oiled hands in transit.

I'll let you know. Other folks' results?

Steve
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#38 cognitivefun

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 06:59 PM

I'm puzzled as to why no oven spring. I have had good oven spring with this same hydration ratio.

I could fold the dough although it was much slacker than in the video. Really more of a ciabatta dough but I'm used to working with that.

#39 UnConundrum

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 08:10 PM

I took a course up at King Arthur's with Jeffrey Hamelman and James MacGuire where James discussed his research into no-knead doughs. His thoughts were that bread-makers from years ago didn't have spiral mixers of the tools of todays bakers. He shared with us a technique he was working on that takes about 4 hours before shaping. I've been playing around with the idea since that class, and have come up with some recipes that really, REALLY work well. Here's links to my recipes:

Baguette/Boule
Vienna
Focaccia
Sauerkraut Rye
Multigrain

There's a bunch of step by step pictures.... I do tend to use my own shortcuts, so if something doesn't make sense, just ask...

#40 rxrfrx

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 05:35 AM

OK, I just finished eating my loaf of no-knead bread. Honestly, I don't think it's worth skipping the 15 minutes in the Kitchenaid. The hole structure was less well-formed, and I couldn't get to a completely fully-proofed stage with Bittman's recipe.

#41 Fromartz

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:00 AM

I measured out the ingredients then weighed them. The 3 cups flour was about 450 grams and 1-5/8 cup water was about 350 grams for a 77 percent hydration.

I'm baking in a few hours and will post the result....


OK, I just finished eating my loaf of no-knead bread.  Honestly, I don't think it's worth skipping the 15 minutes in the Kitchenaid.  The hole structure was less well-formed, and I couldn't get to a completely fully-proofed stage with Bittman's recipe.

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#42 CKatCook

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:26 AM

ohhhhhh...I want to try this...what I cannot figure out is exactly what kind of pot did he bake that in.....I will have to go buy one, thats why I am asking. If I even come close to that it will be worth any price I pay for the pot....

the breads on this thread are beautiful!!!!
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#43 annecros

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:35 AM

I think he was using enamel on cast iron, but I also heard him mention in the video that pyrex could be used, or even cast iron.

I think the issue with the pot has to do with taking the high heat and the cover. I am not sure Pyrex would have the same sort of heat rentention qualities that cast iron does, but it might bring something else to the table in reference to the moisture rentention that I am not getting. Pyrex also generally comes with a clear lid, and I am wondering how that will affect browning. I do know that my LC will brown the top of items.

I am mixing my dough today, and will report back tomorrow. I am looking forward to hearing from everyone else!

#44 MelissaH

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 09:34 AM

I've never worked with yeast before, so forgive what may be a dumb question.
The recipe calls for using a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot and the pictures show the bread rising about half way up the sides. I've got a 4.5-quart LC oval pot I'd like to try this with. In your experience, will this work or do I need to bite the bullet and find a bigger pot?

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Mine's in the oven at the moment, in a 4.5-quart LC oval pot at 500 degrees since the video said to go hot hot hot. I just pulled the lid off, and it was nowhere in danger of hitting the top. (I do have a larger dutch oven in the house, but it's an unenameled cast iron pot from my husband's family, and I wanted to be sure that it wouldn't stick and force me to try and reseason the pot.)

I started the dough at a little before 5 PM yesterday. I turned it out of its bowl when I got back from my swim at about 8:45 this morning. I dusted my towels with rice flour, because it doesn't seem to get as goopy as regular flour with a wet dough and I don't have any wheat bran on hand and the only cornmeal in the house at the moment is blue, and I didn't have any trouble with things sticking. My only apparent goof so far: I did the towel rising on the counter on the opposite side of the room from the range, and in the process of transferring the dough into the hot pot, I managed to dust the floor all the way across. (Note to self: next time put the towel on a sheet pan or pizza peel, idiot!) The dough went into the oven a touch before 11.

When I pulled the lid off just now, the top was already starting to get brown. I'll be sure to leave it in long enough to get really good and dark, though...and I'll take the temperature of the bread's interior so I know it's good and done.

Does anyone else wish the measurements had been given in mass? Despite seeing exactly how the measuring was done in the video?

eta: Two modifications I'd look at for next time, if this is as promising as the article made it sound: swapping in some whole wheat flour, and replacing the smidge of yeast with some of my sourdough started. That's where I really miss not having masses. Guess I'll just have to weigh things next time myself.

MelissaH

Edited by MelissaH, 10 November 2006 - 09:35 AM.

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#45 Fromartz

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 09:54 AM

I took a course up at King Arthur's with Jeffrey Hamelman and James MacGuire where James discussed his research into no-knead doughs.  His thoughts were that bread-makers from years ago didn't have spiral mixers of the tools of todays bakers.  He shared with us a technique he was working on that takes about 4 hours before shaping.  I've been playing around with the idea since that class, and have come up with some recipes that really, REALLY work well.  Here's links to my recipes:

Baguette/Boule
Vienna
Focaccia
Sauerkraut Rye
Multigrain

There's a bunch of step by step pictures....  I do tend to use my own shortcuts, so if something doesn't make sense, just ask...

View Post


Love that you bake that in an egg. I've thought about doing that (being an egg owner myself) but haven't tried it yet...Seems like it would be very much like a brick oven

#46 MelissaH

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 09:55 AM

My bread just came out of the oven. When I took the lid off, I set a timer for 15 minutes. When that beeped, I took a peek. Since there were a few little bits up on the top that were turning a very very dark color, I decided it was time to pull the loaf out of the oven.

The bread came out of the pot without a problem. I don't even think I'll need to wash the pot, other than maybe a quick swipe with a damp cloth to get a little bit of stray rice flour from my towel dusting. The internal temperature was 208 degrees F right when it came out, and within half a minute, it started making the most delightful crackling sounds.

The loaf is oval-shaped, because my pot was oval. It measures about 3 inches high in the middle. And it looks like this:
Posted Image
Posted Image
(In the first photo, you can see a bit of the white rice flour I'd used to keep the dough from sticking to the towel. And in the second photo, taken from a different angle, you can see that the top got quite browned.)

It's still too hot to cut.

MelissaH

Edited by MelissaH, 10 November 2006 - 09:57 AM.

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#47 annecros

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 10:00 AM

Lovely MelissaH. That was what I was hoping to see.

#48 jgm

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 10:11 AM

Eagerly awaiting the next installment of your story, MelissaH!

Two nights ago, I started this recipe. Our kitchen has been a bit cold, so I put some water in the crock pot, inverted the lid, topped with towels, and set the bread bowl on it. Upon checking the next morning, I was unhappy to learn that a lot of heat was coming out of the crock pot --way too much. So I turned off the pot and set the bowl aside on the counter. When I arrived home from work last night, I followed the rest of the directions, but the dough didn't rise a second time. Looks like the initial excess of heat did it in. I didn't bake it.

I started another loaf last night. I just heated up some water in the crock pot and turned it off, allowing the residual heat to work on things. The dough looked considerably better this morning. I can't wait to get home and finish it.

Sooo... the bread should be cool soon; do let us see the inside and tell us how it tastes!

#49 Fromartz

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 10:28 AM

Eagerly awaiting the next installment of your story, MelissaH! 

Two nights ago, I started this recipe.  Our kitchen has been a bit cold, so I put some water in the crock pot, inverted the lid, topped with towels, and set the bread bowl on it.  Upon checking the next morning, I was unhappy to learn that a lot of heat was coming out of the crock pot --way too much.  So I turned off the pot and set the bowl aside on the counter.  When I arrived home from work last night, I followed the rest of the directions, but the dough didn't rise a second time.  Looks like the initial excess of heat did it in.  I didn't bake it.

I started another loaf last night.  I just heated up some water in the crock pot and turned it off, allowing the residual heat to work on things.  The dough looked considerably better this morning.  I can't wait to get home and finish it.

Sooo... the bread should be cool soon; do let us see the inside and tell us how it tastes!

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Another technique is to put the bowl on top of a heating pad. Depending on the temp of your kitchen, you can set the heating pad low or high. But my wife insists I get my own heating pad because she's tired of flour in bed when she's using it!

#50 UnConundrum

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 10:50 AM

Love that you bake that in an egg. I've thought about doing that (being an egg owner myself) but haven't tried it yet...Seems like it would be very much like a brick oven

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Yeah, it was. Lets me get some high temps and I was able to control it pretty well. That's why the pic is of a boule instead of a baguette. Dough is the same, just the shape is different.

I see that the recipes you guys are following takes over 12 hours !!! Wow, I have problems planning that far in the future ;) The 4 - 5 hours this process takes is just about perfect for me.... an hour - hour and a half paying attention to the dough, and then 2.5 hours of tending to other matters... then shaping and baking. I'll usually bake every Sunday. Get up, do the one hour prep thing with the dough, then prepare whatever the Sunday meal will be.... Bread and dough seem to finish right about time to eat :)
<br>
<br>
Vienna:<br>
Posted Image
<br>
<br>
Focaccia:<br>
Posted Image
<br>
<br>
Multigrain:<br>
Posted Image
<br>
<br>
Boule:<br>
Posted Image

Edited by UnConundrum, 10 November 2006 - 11:11 AM.


#51 cajungirl

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 11:33 AM

Does anyone else wish the measurements had been given in mass? Despite seeing exactly how the measuring was done in the video?

eta: Two modifications I'd look at for next time, if this is as promising as the article made it sound: swapping in some whole wheat flour, and replacing the smidge of yeast with some of my sourdough started. That's where I really miss not having masses. Guess I'll just have to weigh things next time myself.

MelissaH

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I converted to weight, 1 cup = 4.5 oz (should have used a tad more after checking online for conversions, I found it should have been 4.83 oz) and of course water 1oz (volumn) = 1oz (weight). I'm at work and the dough is in the bowl sitting on the counter at home since about 10PM last night. I'm really excited to try this..hope it works well. I'm going to use cast iron, but will watch closely due to the dark color. I'll use rice flour on the towel...it works great! Let y'all know on Monday how this works out.
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#52 MelissaH

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:18 PM

Sooo... the bread should be cool soon; do let us see the inside and tell us how it tastes!

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The loaf is cool. The crust has cracked a touch, but that doesn't bother me. However, I'm not going to cut it open for a couple more hours. We're hosting a pre-game dinner tonight with a few friends, and I'm keeping the bread whole for the "oooh" factor. (It's going with meat loaf, spaghetti squash, and broccoli.) I will, however, take pictures when I slice into it.

Sorry to keep you all hanging. :laugh:

I should add that the bread was really easy to make, and involved less hands-on time than many other recipes I've tried. My house is also at about 65 +/- 1 degree F, so it's a little cooler than the recipe specified, but I didn't run into a problem with this particular dough.

As far as the weight, if you watch the video, you can see exactly how the flour was measured by the baker. In this case, he scoops out the flour from a large bowl and then seems to shake the measuring cup to level the top (which would of course pack more flour into the cup). He's presumably using a one-cup dry measuring cup to do the flour.

The water also got scooped out of a bowl with a DRY measuring cup. The video's not quite as clear about how the water is measured, but there are clearly two different measuring cups on the bench, so it's logical to assume that the other is a half-cup measure.

Next time I try this, I'll measure it as the video does, but add it to a bowl on my scale to get proper mass measurements for easy duplication.

I'm curious to hear how the bread does in a dark cast-iron pan. (Maybe that's an experiment I'll have to do myself in the same oven, to get the direct comparison.)

MelissaH
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Say this five times fast: "A big blue bucket of blue blueberries."

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#53 annecros

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:24 PM

That caught my attention as well when he was using the measuring cups. I thought he used a dry measure for the liquid, and it appears to be all shot in one take. Will check back tomorrow for your "Internal" investigation MelissaH, and thanks for doing the dirty work and blazing a trail. He also said "one and half" when measuring the water, so the adjustment in the recipe to one and five eights may have been some sort of compensation.

I want to sub some rye flour into the recipe in the future, if this works out for me.

Edited by annecros, 10 November 2006 - 01:25 PM.


#54 MelissaH

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:34 PM

That caught my attention as well when he was using the measuring cups. I thought he used a dry measure for the liquid, and it appears to be all shot in one take. Will check back tomorrow for your "Internal" investigation MelissaH, and thanks for doing the dirty work and blazing a trail. He also said "one and half" when measuring the water, so the adjustment in the recipe to one and five eights may have been some sort of compensation.

I want to sub some rye flour into the recipe in the future, if this works out for me.

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I, too, noticed that the printed recipe said one and five eighths, whereas the video specified one and a half. For this first go-round, I pretty much followed suit from the video. But I didn't feel like getting out a half-cup measure, so I just eyeballed the five-eighths part as a little more than halfway full of my one-cup. The dough was plenty gloppy, but definitely foldable this morning.

In my photos above, you can sort of see where the loaf split on its own. The split seems to be more or less along a fold (remember, it rises on the towel seam down, but goes into the pot seam up).

Ooh, rye flour. Possibly with some sourdough added? Or...I could get some cornmeal that isn't blue, and use that in the loaf! All kinds of possible variations to try, and I bet among eG we'll try most of them.

MelissaH
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Say this five times fast: "A big blue bucket of blue blueberries."

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#55 jgm

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:36 PM

For those of you who are experienced at baking breads, could you suggest some possible variations to try?

What would be the likely result of adding more flour?
What would be the likely result of adding more water?
What would be the likely result of substituting egg for part of the water, for the same total volume?
How about other types of flours, as annecros has suggested?
Would the amount of yeast need to be adjusted for added egg, or other flours?

I find this whole thing quite intriguing, and I'm looking forward to experimenting with it.

#56 UnConundrum

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:45 PM

The flour and water additions would depend on quantity. More flour will make the dough dryer, harder to work. More water would make it softer, and maybe equally harder to work.... Since you're already working with a highly hydrated dough, I wouldn't suggest more water (unless you're working in a very dry atmosphere).

Egg is considered a fat and will potentially soften the crust and moisten the crumb, making it a little more tender, and a little heavier.

The yeast should remain constant.

The egg/water substitution should be essentially to 1 to 1.... at least, I believe that's what you would do with baker's math.

#57 Fromartz

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:51 PM

I could not wait. Here it is. It went through a 14 hour rise, 2-1/2 hour second rise. I did not find it soupy as others did. (I used Whole Foods 365 brand organic all purpose flour). The only downside was I burned a finger when it touched the extremely hot Le Cruset pot. WATCH OUT! The darkened part on the top was a bubble that burst when I flipped it out of the pot.

Posted Image

I couldn't wait to see the inside so I cut it open. It's a very soft crumb, tasty, though not as tasty as my sourdough. Crust was perfect. Salt was good, reading other posts I went up to 2 tsp sea salt. I'd say the recipe is a winner, though will try it next time with a starter and maybe 20 percent King Arthur whole wheat white.

Posted Image

#58 Luckylies

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:53 PM

I've never worked with yeast before, so forgive what may be a dumb question.
The recipe calls for using a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot and the pictures show the bread rising about half way up the sides. I've got a 4.5-quart LC oval pot I'd like to try this with. In your experience, will this work or do I need to bite the bullet and find a bigger pot?

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I took my loaf out of the oven an hour ago. It is beautiful and exactly as Leahy said it should be . I used a 5 qt oval le Creuset and had no problem. I think 4.5 qt might work but definitely nothing smaller as the dough might hit against the lid.
I think the recipe does not call for enough salt. That is the only fault I can find with it and easily remedied.


Ruth

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'kay, I started a batch of this within five minutes of spotting the article. (Finished reading it as I worked.)

Worked pretty well--looks *beautiful*--but various issues/ideas/thoughts:

1. It was so wet even after 18 hours that the idea of "folding" it as instructed was like folding pudding. Couldn't put it in the pot seam-side up as instructed because there weren't no seam. Two possible reasons:

a. It's a volume- (not weight-)measure recipe so it's possible there was too little flour--flour-to-water ratio was short.

b. My house thermostat kicks down at night to about sixty, so maybe it didn't do enough fermenting to build the glutens/align the proteins. Longer time or consistent warmth might change that.

2. When I pulled it out of the oven it had a great crunchy crust, but by the time it cooled it was chewy not crunchy. I  only cooked it to light/medium brown (15 minutes after the pot lid came off), not dark brown. That might explain it.

3. The internal bubbles are beautiful, but the texture is much more elastic, even rubbery, than I tend to like. Would prefer more crumby. I wonder if one of the following would change that:

a. higher flour-to-water ratio
b. longer/more fermentation
c. longer/browner cooking

4. I am an almost obsessively minimalist bread baker. Read: lazy. (My everyday toast/sandwich white bread involves 5 minutes/2 hours rising/form into loaves (never touching the bread board which would require cleaning)/half hour rising/bake.) So this recipe is *way* attractive to me. Drawbacks:

a. It really gums up the bread board, which then must be cleaned. (Which in turn gums up the sponge... I told you I'm lazy.)

b. It *really* gums up the towel that's recommended. Pain to clean.

BTW, it does *not* stick to the pan as I feared. If I get good success with this I'll devote a pot to it that I rarely or never bother to clean, like my bread pans.

I have another batch fermenting now (which seems to be a bit drier). I'm going to try minimalizing it even more, going straight from the bowl (maybe knocking/stirring it down once for a second rising) into the hot pot, forming it a little bit with oiled hands in transit.

I'll let you know. Other folks' results?

Steve

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I'm with you two. Too wet, not enough salt. Really not very good except for the crust. I wonder if more salt would kill the yeast and prevent the proof?
does this come in pork?

My name's Emma Feigenbaum.

#59 Fromartz

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 02:39 PM

I used 2 tsp of salt without a problem. The dough developed just as well as the video and I'd say it was just right...

#60 BeefCheeks

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 02:55 PM

How much heat can a romertopf stand? Thanks-
BeefCheeks is an author, editor, and food journalist.
"The food was terrible. And such small portions...."
--Alvy Singer





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