419 replies to this topic

[Wolfert]

Look on post #5 upthread. I will try cooking something in the tagine with coals this weekend. I have a raytek thermometer and will let you know.

I wouldn't be surprised if the ideal heat will turn out to be 275 F. Stay tuned.

[fifi]

OK, you guys . . . DO NOT! I repeat . . . DO NOT give me an excuse to get another toy. Those Rayteks have been calling my name. I am telling myself to give up on that and use my remote thermometer probe. Yes. That will work. I don't really need that Raytek. Nope. Don't need it.

Paula, I will bet 250 F in the tagine. Maybe less. My oven is correct and I get a slow simmer at 250 in LC, now confirmed in a clay pot. To barely simmer at all, I cut it back to 225 when braising so I can go shopping and not worry about it. But then, that technique doesn't have the cooling cone on top.

[Wolfert]

Paula, I will bet 250 F in the tagine. Maybe less. My oven is correct and I get a slow simmer at 250 in LC, now confirmed in a clay pot. To barely simmer at all, I cut it back to 225 when braising so I can go shopping and not worry about it. But then, that technique doesn't have the cooling cone on top.

I'm glad you mentioned this. I was thinking of measuring the heat of the coalsat 275. You're absolutely right, I need to measure the temperature of the simmering liquid inside the tagine.


I'm curing some flower pot saucers right now to use as stands on the stove.
One is brushed with molasses thanks to Nancy's suggestion, and the other is with coals and oil. .

[Smithy]

I'm curing some flower pot saucers right now to use as stands on the stove.
One is brushed with molasses thanks to Nancy's suggestion, and the other is with coals and oil. .

I hope you'll post photos when you're done, along with your comments, so we can see what difference the curing makes. Hmm, I have a couple of uncured moussaka bowls sitting around. Maybe I'll try a comparison too.

Edited to remove a question already answered elsewhere, and to fix a formatting error.

Edited by Smithy, 16 March 2005 - 11:26 AM.

[Wolfert]

I just posted a topic on curing pots.

[Pat W]

I have two tagine recipes that I learned from a cook in Morocco. She was very sweet, let me follow her into the kitchen and write everything down  This was in Zagora, so obviously the cooking would vary throughout the country.

Chicken Tagine

OK, I have a painfully dumb question. After becoming inspired by the previous couscous thread, I bought a Le Creuset tagine (although now that I've read this thread I wish I had held out for a crockery tagine, but I digress). I tried the Honeyed, spiced chicken tagine recipe that came with the pot. I lightly sautéed the onions & garlic & then added the chicken as instructed. I could not get the chicken to brown. It was delicious, but very white. The Chicken Tagine recipe Sackvill Girl posted sounds wonderful & I'd like to try it but it starts the same way as the first recipe I tried. Should I remove the onions after sautéing? How do I get the chicken to brown?

Sigh, I did warn you that this was going to be a painfully dumb question.

[Smithy]

I have two tagine recipes that I learned from a cook in Morocco. She was very sweet, let me follow her into the kitchen and write everything down  This was in Zagora, so obviously the cooking would vary throughout the country.

Chicken Tagine

OK, I have a painfully dumb question. After becoming inspired by the previous couscous thread, I bought a Le Creuset tagine (although now that I've read this thread I wish I had held out for a crockery tagine, but I digress). I tried the Honeyed, spiced chicken tagine recipe that came with the pot. I lightly sautéed the onions & garlic & then added the chicken as instructed. I could not get the chicken to brown. It was delicious, but very white. The Chicken Tagine recipe Sackvill Girl posted sounds wonderful & I'd like to try it but it starts the same way as the first recipe I tried. Should I remove the onions after sautéing? How do I get the chicken to brown?

Sigh, I did warn you that this was going to be a painfully dumb question.

Ha, that isn't a painfully dumb question! You should see the one I'm about to post!

I have some guesses and questions, and I'm sure the resident experts will chime in soon. First, I wonder whether the Le Creuset is changing the browning from what you're used to. Do you have other LC pieces? Other posters have noted that it doesn't brown as easily - although I have to say I haven't noticed that problem with my stuff. Second idea: was there too much liquid in the pan from the onions? Maybe you needed to let the onion juice boil off a bit before adding the chicken. My third idea goes to what Paula's been teaching here for other meats: brown the chicken at the end of the cooking, under the broiler. You might have to separate the chicken from the rest of the sauce for that step. That isn't the sequence in the recipe noted above, but it might work for you.

[Wolfert]

Sigh, I did warn you that this was going to be a painfully dumb question.

[/quote]



If you really want to be authentic and prepare tagines as they do in Morocco, you rarely brown the chicken or the meat for that matter. Sometimes a flat tray is placed on top of the finished dish, a load of hot coals are set on top to glaze the skin or flesh--- but this is done in only some dishes.
On the other hand, you might just take the cooked chicken pieces out of the sauce, line them up on a broiler tray, brown them, then return them to the sauce and serve .

Edited by Wolfert, 16 March 2005 - 11:15 AM.

[Smithy]

OK, here goes my dumb question. I'm wondering how the tagine would work with lean cuts of meat. Specifically, I have some deer meat that's quite flavorful but quite lean, and tends to dry out easily. I'm still trying to find ways to cook it without drying it out. Stew has worked pretty well. Would braising in the tagine work, or does the meat need more fat for that?

[Wolfert]

If you are thinking of cooking "moroccan," then you should switch to grilling, steaming or roasting lean meat.



Smithy, the house smells wonderful due to the browning molasses.

[Pat W]

Smithy & Miss Wolfert, thank you for the answers.

Smithy, I believe the onions were still a bit liquidy when I added the chicken, so it must have steamed rather than browned.

Miss Wolfert, If unbrowned meat is more traditional all the better. What threw me off was that the recipe instructs one to brown each side of the chicken breast. If the end result is a little too pale for us I will try the end of cooking under the broiler method.

[Sackville]

The Chicken Tagine recipe Sackvill Girl posted sounds wonderful & I'd like to try it but it starts the same way as the first recipe I tried.  Should I remove the onions after sautéing?  How do I get the chicken to brown? 

Sigh, I did warn you that this was going to be a painfully dumb question. 

I'm sorry I can't help you. I have never had a problem getting my chicken to brown. Hmmmmmm.... I can only assume it has something to do with the Le Creuset tagine and the way it's made.

[Pat W]

The Chicken Tagine recipe Sackvill Girl posted sounds wonderful & I'd like to try it but it starts the same way as the first recipe I tried.   Should I remove the onions after sautéing?  How do I get the chicken to brown? 

I'm sorry I can't help you. I have never had a problem getting my chicken to brown. Hmmmmmm.... I can only assume it has something to do with the Le Creuset tagine and the way it's made.

I don't mean to belabor this, but do you drop the chicken breasts in on top of the onions or do you remove the onions & add them back later?

I agree that the Le Creuset may not have been the right tagine to buy, but I've not had any problems browning chicken in their dutch oven.

[Bond Girl]

Paula, just to divert this thread a bit. Can you elaborate on how tagine is used in cooking fish and vegetables? For a fish tagine, do you slow cook it, or is it a much faster process than say lam or chicken? do you create a stew first then put the fish in? Can the whole thing be made on a gas stove top or does it have to go in the oven? I don't own a tagine right now, but this thread is really inspiring me to get one.

[Sackville]

I  don't mean to belabor this, but do you drop the chicken breasts in on top of the onions or do you remove the onions & add them back later?

I don't remove the onions. I might push them to one side a little bit to make room for the chicken.

[Adam Balic]

A couple of people are coming for dinner on Tuesday and I think that I shall make tagine. I have a 14th C. Arabic recipe for Mrouzia (thanks to Charles Perry's translations) and are interested in producing this.

I also have a digital probe and a tagine from Meknes, so I will take some measurements and photos etc. I am actually quite interested to see the temperature in this cooking vessel, pity I don't have pressure probe though.

[Wolfert]

undefinedPaula, just to divert this thread a bit. Can you elaborate on how tagine is used in cooking fish and vegetables? For a fish tagine, do you slow cook it, or is it a much faster process than say lam or chicken? do you create a stew first then put the fish in? Can the whole thing be made on a gas stove top or does it have to go in the oven? I don't own a tagine right now, but this thread is really inspiring me to get one.

There are many recipes for fish tagines or baked fish dishes along the Moroccan coast.

Inland, in the town of Fez, there are a whole slew of dishes using shad and shad roe. It is the only country I know where they love shad roe as much as Americans do.

The shad is stuffed with dates or almond paste, but you can substitute carp. . The shape of the tagra is to accomodate the shape of a 4 pound fish. It is baked in a 350 oven for about 45 minutes.Sometimes the fish is cooked on top of the stove; other times in the oven.


Also, thick fillets of white fleshed fish are smothered in vegetables and baked or cooked in a regular tagine without the conical top. Usually canes or slivers of celery or carrots are used to keep the fish fillets from touching the oh-too-hot bottom of the tagine. It is slow cooked for about 1 hour. Amazingly, the vegetables keep the fish from over-cooking.

[Sackville]

The Chicken Tagine recipe Sackvill Girl posted sounds wonderful & I'd like to try it but it starts the same way as the first recipe I tried.  Should I remove the onions after sautéing?  How do I get the chicken to brown? 

I decided to make this tonight and snapped a pic after about 4-5 minutes in my tagine.



That's how mine browns up. I let it go a couple more minutes and then add the potatoes, carrots, etc...

That's 4-5 minutes of the chicken top side down in the tagine.

[Pat W]

Oh yummy! Thank you Sackville. I can't wait to try this.

[Sackville]

Got some more pics for you

[Pat W]

Oh my.... what a cruel thing to do to a person who had to settle for a peanut butter & jelly sandwich for lunch.

That looks scrumptious.

[Wolfert]

Yes, it really does look wonderful.

[Bond Girl]

That really looks fantastic, even for a non-chicken eater like me. Since Spring is coming I can get shad and shad roes....will look to see what I can cook up in a tagine.

[Smithy]

I started a chicken tagine last night and did a double recipe: one in the Egyptian clay pot and the other in a Le Creuset of comparable bottom surface area. The LC sat directly on the burner, and I put the Egyptian borma on a wok stand.

My take so far on the wok stand is that it elevates the pot off the electric coil, true, but then I had to turn the heat up to get a simmer, more than I needed when the pot sat on a flame tamer. I noticed that the sides of the pot got hotter than when the pot sat on a flame tamer, because the heat fanned out around the pot as air rose through the wok stand holes. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know. The wok stand certainly held the pot nicely.

I'll see tonight how they turn out. A small disaster involving a box of 800 toothpicks falling out of the cabinet while I was looking for more saffron delayed me so much I had to do the "refrigerate overnight" thing. (I hereby resolve to put rubber bands around my toothpick boxes. And how could I have let myself run out of saffron? )

Nancy

[chefzadi]

I'm watching this thread with interest. But I don't know if it's appropriate to open my Algerian mouth here.

[Smithy]

I'm watching this thread with interest. But I don't know if it's appropriate to open my Algerian mouth here. 

Well...this thread is the daughter of one thread and the mother of another. If you think your Algerian mouth would disrupt the conversation, why not start an Algerian tagine thread?

Seriously, I'd be interested to know how the cuisine and cooking methods shift with the geography.

[Wolfert]

Chef Zadi: you know it's the diversity of cooking in North Africa that is so intresting and so unknown on this side of the pond.

We need you to guide us through the center core of the region.

I might be able to help with the Tunisian side as well. I am familiar with their cooking which is very different from Algerian and Moroccan styles.
I worked as a culinary spokesperson for the Tunisian olive oil industry for about 5 years and was taught a lot of interesting quirky recipes.


So, chef zadi please speak to us.



Smithy: thanks so much for passing along the wok versus diffuser information.

Sorry about the toothpicks. Actually, I have been there myself with one spice or another.

Edited by Wolfert, 18 March 2005 - 04:46 PM.

[Smithy]

This report could go almost as easily back into the eGCI Braising Lab Q&A, or even the Paprika: confessions of an addict thread, as here. But I started posting about it here before I spilled almost 800 toothpicks all over my stove and counter, so I'll finish it here.

Double-Cooked Red Chicken Marrakech-Style, from Paula Wolfert's The Slow Mediterranean Kitchen: Recipes for the Passionate Cook. Well, almost. The recipe calls for whole chickens, and I didn't want to cook that much. I used chicken thighs only, because I wanted to compare the dish cooked two ways: in my Egyptian clay pot and in a Le Creuset French oven (oval) of roughly the same bottom area. The geometries are different. I don't know how relevant that is.

The clay pot was on a wok stand over a large coil of my electric stove. The LC was on a small burner, on my reasoning that it would transmit heat more readily than the clay pot and that the smaller coil would provide a lower heat for simmering. I used 6 chicken thighs per pot, and used exactly the same spice mix, garlic, water, etc. to the best of my ability to measure them. There were some differences in timing, since I'm being pretty careful not to overheat the clay pot and I have no such fears about the LC. Nonetheless I went slowly with both.


I noted upthread that the heat from the coil came up around the clay pot sides more, with it elevated by the wok stand, than when it had been on a flame tamer directly on the coil. I realized later that I could have put the pot and wok stand over the small burner coil, and maybe concentrated the heat on the bottom. I may try that later, but tonight the LC was there and I had other plans for the back burners.

Attention paprika freaks: this chicken has a lot of paprika in the coating, and it's goood. There's also garlic, cilantro that basically disappears, cumin, pepper, ginger, onion, saffron (if you haven't run out) and cayenne.

The procedure seems to be what you do with tagines (correct me if I'm wrong, Wolfert, please): coat the meat with a seasoning (garlic, herbs, butter, spices in this case) , toss over low heat until things start to warm up, then add onions and water and bring to the boil. Then cover the pot, lower the heat and simmer. The LC came up to temperature first, and I had to cut its heat back. Eventually I had both pots simmering at the same slow rate, judging by the bubbles. I will not report the temperatures I measured last night, because I didn't write them down and I'm not sure I trust my memory. I do remember, however, that the simmering temperatures (at the bottom of the liquid) were within 10*F of each other. I simmered a little over an hour, and by that time the chicken in each vessel was fork-tender.
Here's the Egyptian pot (borma) after liquid was added, and before the simmer started:

and while simmering:


Up to this point, the dishes looked the same except for the cooking vessels, so I won't duplicate with LC photos. Afterward, they diverged. The chicken in the LC was fully covered by liquid by the time the hour was up. The chicken in the clay pot was not submerged. After refrigeration overnight I defatted both dishes, rewarmed the liquid, and measured. The Le Creuset dish had 2 cups of liquid. The clay pot had 1 cup of liquid. As far as I know, both were as tightly covered during cooking. I definitely started with the same amount of liquid and solids.
Here's what the clay pot chicken looked like after refrigeration (I didn't separate the meat and sauce overnight):

Here's the Le Creuset version after the same treatment:

That's a piece of chicken, submerged, in the upper center of the photo. There was twice as much liquid, by volume, in the LC dish as in the borma.

After that step you separate the sauce from the chicken, boil down the sauce, rub some of the rescued fat (with yet more paprika and other spices) on the chicken, and broil the chicken until it's browned. Serve with the sauce and a garnish of preserved lemons. Zinfandel in the glass isn't a bad accompaniment.


Dinner! LC chicken on the left, clay pot chicken on the right. Not much visual difference, especially with my photos. I've decided to blame the white plates.

The differences: because the LC chicken had thrown off a lot more liquid, that made for a lot more sauce (even after boiling down) at the table. The clay pot chicken lost more moisture during the broiling stage, and the plate had a bunch of reddish oil around the chicken after that step. That must mean something, although I don't know what. I think the clay pot chicken was a bit more tender and fall-apart melty. The LC, however, did a fine job, and the chicken was plenty tender and flavorful. Both tasted wonderful.

I wish, oh how I wish, that you readers could have been here for the event, but that wouldn't have left me many leftovers. I recommend you go try it for yourself.

Nancy

[Sackville]

Double-Cooked Red Chicken Marrakech-Style, from Paula Wolfert's The Slow Mediterranean Kitchen: Recipes for the Passionate Cook.

Is there anyway you could share that recipe with us? I would be very interested in trying it! Your pictures and description of the dish are making my mouth water...

And to the Algerian tagine expert, please speak up! I'd love to learn about the differences....

[fifi]

Smithy, that is a terrific report. Looks like it tastes good, too. You can't have too much paprika.

I am not particularly surprised at the differences in the amount of liquid between the two pots. The porous clay pots will lose water through the sides of the pot as well as from the top surface. I am thinking that that process is part of the charm of cooking in these clay pots. You get a more efficient concentration (loss of water) of the sauce in the clay.

That is a really cool clay pot!