22 replies to this topic

[NewYorkTexan]

The discussion on the Olive Garden struck a nerve; are there quality chain restaurants?  The high end steak houses do not count.  

Romano's macaroni grill is not bad  They have  an open kitchen and consistent food.  The negative is that their decor is over the top with too much kitsch.  My opinion is biased since the restaurant is conveniently located on my way home and it is way too easy for my to call in an order to pick up and bring home.

Outside of appetizers and drinks, I have never had an acceptable meal at the american cafe style chains like Bennigans, TGIF, etc.  

In-n-Out Burgers is not really a resturant, but they have perhaps the best fast food burger in the country.

[Rosie]

The only ones that I would return to are Champps and Outback.

[Rail Paul]

California Pizza Kitchen for good, high quality ingredients and fresh preparation

even their airport locations have open kitchens, fresh produce, etc.

(Perhaps we should open a thread about fast food dining in airports?)

[Julliana]

There's a chain called Houstons that has very good food.  I would put them a way ahead of Outback and any other chain TGIF, Olive Garden, Ruby Tuesdays etc.  

I first tried them in Texas when I was traveling and they opened a few years ago in NYC at the Citicorp building and a new one recently on Park Avenue So.  

They are all company owned and if your ever on the road or come across one - you can have a *very* decent meal.  I cant think of a chain to compare them to because they really are far superior to any that have been mentioned in the previous thread.

Julliana  

[Tree]

I second those thoughts regarding Houston's.  When I lived in LA, I became a big fan and was very happy when they opened a branch in NYC.  They make excellent drinks and the food is quite solid.  Even in NYC, the dining capitol of the US, there is often a very significant wait for a table.

[Fat Guy]

Were a hypothetical restaurant reviewer to go to Houston's, what would you recommend as the restaurant's best dishes?

[Stone]

What's the big deal about In-and-Out Burger?  I see this as a typical example of Californians not knowing anything about food beyond the ubiquitous seared ahi tuna with mango chutney.  Other than the toasted bun (which, I admit, is terrific) the burger, etc., is just not very good.  It's too greasy (something that should be a pluse), and the sauce to too overpowering.  And the fries are simply awful.  Give me a double-whopper any day (the extra patty actually makes it a hamburger).

[NewYorkTexan]

Quote: from Fat Guy on 5:55 pm on Jan. 11, 2002
Were a hypothetical restaurant reviewer to go to Houston's, what would you recommend as the restaurant's best dishes?

I would think the best bet would be any of their grilled dishes.  Most Houston's feature a mequite wood grill.  Usually a large pile of fire wood is stacked by the door to hammer that point home.

Funny, I never think of Houston's as a typical chain.  Both the quality and prices are a little higher than most, such as olive garden, outback, steak and ale, etc.  

[Fat Guy]

There are several levels of chain. I wouldn't put Olive Garden and Outback in the same price category as one another, no less as Houston's. The concept of a chain extends from Subway to Ducasse, so it's not particularly easy to generalize.

Whenever I see wood piled up at a restaurant, I wonder if it's actually used in cooking or if it's just a display. And then I get into my whole internal dialog about wood versus gas, which I won't bore you with here.

[NewYorkTexan]

There is a difference between a chain restaurant and a restaurant with several locations.  I am sure Ducasse would be thrilled to hear he was included in the overall discussion of chain restaurants,

On pricing, Houston's falls into a unique place between the Fridays/Bennigans/outbacks and the high-end steak chains, two people can easily spend ๛ dollars on a meal.   They aspire to be more like the top tier chains (Morton's, Sullivan's,etc) but have institutional short comings that prevent that.  Most notably is the service, the caliber of their help is the same as the lower end of the chain restaurant spectrum.  The kitchen is wildly inconsistent, I have had perfectly cooked pork chops and I have been served what I assume was the cooks shoe.   The last two cities I have lived in have had a Houston's with 10 minutes of my home.  I have stopped going to them because for a modest premium, I could get a better meal with superior wine selection at a good steak house.

I am sure there are other chain restaurants that have similar prices and ambiance  to Houston's, but I do not know of any.  I do not know much about Outbacks, I went once and had an awful experience and never went back.  Are they any good?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Fat Guy - At the Boca Raton Houston's, we always found the Prime Rib to be top notch. But that was years ago before South Beach existed and we vacationed in the suburbs of Miami.

I think the issue with chain restaurants that offer quality food is partially a function of their approving local vendors to supply ingredients. Just think how much better McDonald's would be if each franchise was throwing freshly made patties on the grill instead of frozen ones that makes their way east from the fullfilment center in San Diego. Starbuck's is a good example as their baked goods must come from corporately approved local venders so they are fresh.
And I'm sure that in places like Houston's they allow the franchises to make menu choices based on location.
So not only is the quality better because of local suppliers, the environment isn't as rigid because a number of touches give it the appearance of a "real" reataurant. In fact, years ago when we ate at Houston's we had no idea it was a chain until on our second visit we noticed a list of other locations.

[Fat Guy]

Quote: from NewYorkTexan on 8:50 am on Jan. 12, 2002
There is a difference between a chain restaurant and a restaurant with several locations.

Is it a question of sheer numbers, or can one restaurant with 10 outposts be a chain and another not? If so, what distinguishes them?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Fat Guy - How about a Ducasse drive through? "Ducasse pour le Voiture." They could have them near the entrances of posh malls. You know like on your way out of Bal Harbor or Bloomfield Hills you can stop and get a "Poulet Sandwich" for ุ plus Frittes for บ more. And of course the special children's "Mignon" menu for les enfants that feature "Le Clown Burger" filet mignon sur le bun gros hache apres grille for a mere ษ. Or the "Burger Normale" avec le peint? de la face du clown comme tomate coulis sur le burger. Also ษ. It would replace Friendly's as the lunch spot of choice for posh sleepaway camps when they go on field trips.

[NewYorkTexan]

In simplest and broadest terms, the difference lies in the management........are they cooks or business people.

Individual or family run restaurants that have multiple locations are privately held and have a limited number of restaurants or a limited geographic foot print.  This smaller scale is critical, it allows the owner to have a more hands-on role.  Their presence has a significant impact on the quality of the service and food.  This holds true from barbeque joints in the south to Ducasse's restaurants.  After all, it probably was the owner or founder's devotion to quality them gave them the reputation to expand in the first place.   The ultimate focus is on the customer experience, driven by the owners passion for the food.  There is also a degree of accountability associated with having an actual owner/chef. Even at a chain like Wolfgang Puck, I would assume that he takes an interest (even if it is small) in the food being served at a restaurant with his name on the door.  His chain is also one of the better options at airports, but that is for another thread.

I classify chain restaurants as those with many locations that cover a large geographic area.  As part of a public company (I am not distinguishing between publicly traded companies and those owned by a private investment fund like a LBO) the ultimate focus is ROI.   There is a need to institutionalize every detail of its operations, stripping away local character.   The senior management makes their decisions based on numbers, market research data and net margins.  Some of the brightest marketing people I know used to have senior roles at PepsiCo/Tricon.   You could have substituted widgets for tacos and they probably would not have missed a beat if the profits were still there.  Chain restaurants are often accused of having no soul, it just the lack of passion for food by management.

There are many area of grays between the two groups.  Morton's Steak House is a publicly traded chain restaurant, yet it is far superior to most individuals owned restaurants.  In many smaller cities, Morton's or Ruth's Crist is the best place in town.    Restaurant Associates is another example  that is hard to stereotype.  

[Fat Guy]

It sounds like you're really saying that there are good chains and bad chains. Perhaps it's just a question of semantics, but I think once you own or license more than a handful of restaurants, you're a chain. Whether you prioritize quality is up to you.

[NewYorkTexan]

There is a fundamental difference between  the two, not just semantics.  

A restaurateur that has more than one property is quite different than a large chain restaurant.  There are capital and management limitations to how large a restaurateur can grow before it become a chain establishment.   I am not sure where that  line exists when an  establishment becomes a chain.  Is it when they reach a certain number of locations, become publicly traded or ???????  Almost all of the best known chains started as single restaurants and morphed into chains somewhere along their history.  Still, I do not think you can call a chef with several restaurants a chain.      

When discussing chain restaurants, there are really two defining attributes to examine, scale and price points.   You can almost chart this, if one was so inclined.

As a chain increased in scale, quality almost inevitably decreases.  I am not talking a direct correlation, but close.  National or global chain with hundreds or thousands of locations will focus on uniformity and profitability, not product quality.  This is not all bad as there is some comfort knowing that the McDonald's french fries will taste the same in Wyoming as they will in Chicago.  The down side is the McRib will taste the same as well (one of the worst things I every tasted).  Many regional chains still owned by the founder often refuse to expand beyond their region for fear of diluting the quality of the product.    

As one moves up in prices, quality will usually rise accordingly.  It is inappropriate to compare Morton's of Chicago with Steak and Ale.   To be fair, comparisons should be grouped together, mid-priced italian restaurants, high-end steak houses, fast food chains, etc.   You can also group them by menu price points, say best meal for two under โ.

When I refered to suburban chain restaurants, I meant, but did not clearly state, I was talking about mid-priced chains.

[Steve Klc]

Steve--can I infer from your post that you think Starbucks does a good job with their bakery-style goods?  Locally outsourced products may be fresher in theory--but are they more flavorful in actual practice?  What guarantee is in place that those freshly delivered goods are maintained well on site and not held past their optimal life?

What has one gained if those locally-sourced goods are still produced to a corporate recipe so that they are high in cheap fats, full of flavorless flours and/or have enough sugar in them--to act as salt does, preserving and prolonging moistness and shelf life?  I'd like to know who has the contract for Starbucks--I doubt it's Payard or Bruno Bakery or one of Maury Rubin's places.

Sometimes--just sometimes--good use of a freezer--and proper flash-freezing at the source, be it fresh fish, breads, whatever--can mitigate the supposed advantage of buying locally and elevate quality and consistency, especially in chains.  Knowing how to manage your freezer well is a vastly under-rated skill.

By the way, your drive thru post made me laugh so hard I almost fell out of bed. 

And NewYorkTexan, I think you are spot-on with your writing about chains, keenly observed and argued.

[jhlurie]

The argument could be made that the transition occurs when the locations of a restaurant come out of the direct control of the founder or founders.  Sometimes this issue is skirted a bit when members of a large family manage parts of a chain, but that's only a delaying action at best if the chain keeps expanding.

Some here will disagree, but chains are not inherently bad.  A good chain can be a bastion of consistency, and can indeed be the best restaurant in a town.  It's sad that this has to ever be the case... but its not proper to shift the blame for this to the chain.  If there wasn't a vacuum to fill... then they wouldn't be doing so.  

It doesn't invalidate an argument made by Holly Moore in a prevous thread that we, the eGullet types, are better off trying non-chain food in strange areas because we are much more likely to make a "discovery" that way.  

Le Clown Burger.  Chuckle. Good one, Plotnicki. :)

(Edited by jhlurie at 12:39 pm on Jan. 13, 2002)

[Steve Klc]

However, what we might discover in the process is that those small restaurants are de facto chains--let's use the corner takeout Chinese restaurant in the suburbs as an example.  The vast majority of them are producing the same mediocre Kung Pao chicken et al with the same commercially produced, wholesaled sauces and dumplings and frozen stir-fryable vegetables--probably obtained from the same huge national suppliers.  You know what I'm talking about here--the dishes that seem to have some blend of the same 3 sauces--20% sweet and sour, 30% black bean, 50% szechuan-like-- that undoubtedly are delivered in big tubs and ladled out.  I've seen this stuff at Food shows--and I swear it's effectively making all the Chinese restaurants around me a chain.

So perhaps another way to look at this is the use of commercially prepared wholesale ingredients and convenience products.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

NewYorkTexan said: In simplest and broadest terms, the difference lies in the management........are they cooks or business people.

I have a relative who owns 60 BurgerKings and a handful of Chili's.  He considers himself in the real estate business!

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Quote: from jhlurie ....  A good chain can be a bastion of consistency, and can indeed be the best restaurant in a town.  It's sad that this has to ever be the case... but its not proper to shift the blame for this to the chain.  If there wasn't a vacuum to fill... then they wouldn't be doing so.
 
It doesn't invalidate an argument made by Holly Moore in a prevous thread that we, the eGullet types, are better off trying non-chain food in strange areas because we are much more likely to make a "discovery" that way.  

We spend some 40 - 45 days away from home in the US each year.  Because of the nature of our travel, we usually find ourselves in small towns whose downtowns have given way to malls and chains.  We have visited most of these places for over 10 years, so have had lots of opportunity to check out what may be a discovery.  There have been few.  Advise from locals can sometimes be even more hair-raising than bumbling around on our own.  Restaurant listings for these places are just about non-existent, and top rated places still serve what we wouldn't accept at home.  Enter Applebee's.  Do not  make the mistake that we recommend this chain.  But when your plane gets in at 8pm and you have to get up at 4am, and you see their lighted logo, they become a viable option.  You MUST order simply in these places.  My husband makes the mistake of believing the menu, and gets some truly gruesome plates.  But if you stick to something like a steak salad (lightly dressed romaine, about 6 oz.sirloin cooked to your specification...if you can get it across that your really mean rare...several tomato and torpedo onion slices, and showered with some adequate blue cheese that I think they actually call Rochefort) you will have a reliable if predictable meal.

We would never patronize this type of restaurant at home, nor would we need to.  Nor would we go to one when we are in a locale with food options: e.g., Boston, mid-coast Maine, Portsmouth NH, Lambertville NJ.  But in the hinterland, Applebee's rules. :)

[Steve Klc]

Margaret--could I implore you to start a thread in "Elsewhere" sometime about your dining experiences in New Hampshire and Portsmouth?  I've been going to NH for a few years now and would love to hear your thoughts.

[Damian]

Heading to Houston's NYC tonight for their version of the world's greatest cheeseburger.  My wife and I used to go this chain on days like today when we both worked all day and neither wants to cook.  We loved the burgers at the one in Bethesda, MD.  At least until we get our sea legs (the idiom, not the processed tofu) here and find good places we can just drop in unannounced in the city, this familiar, reliable chain is a real blessing.