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Cooking & Curing from "Charcuterie": Part 3

Charcuterie Cookbook

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#211 FoodMan

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 09:24 AM

I hate to belabor the point, but the instructions that came with my (non-ice-packed) Bactoferm claim that an ideal temp for the hanging of sausages is something around 78 or so! The book and almost everyone here says that is too high. So, now I am thoroughly confused!

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Are you sure they are not referring to the inoculation temperature?

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I do not have the instructions on me right now, but yes pretty sure. I can verify when I get back home I guess.

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#212 melicob

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 09:41 AM

I weighed my Spanish chorizo this weekend and it was 50% less than the initial weight! It wasn't even supposed to be ready yet. (It's target date is this Thursday.) Is that bad? My closet has maintained a consistent 65 degrees and 70% humidity. The flavor is fantastic and the texture is great, but now I'm a little worried something has gone wrong. I took it down and put it in the fridge because I didn't want it to shrink too much. Is time (18-20 days) more important than the target 30% weight loss? Thoughts?

And lovely, lovely photo essay, Chris! I also adore my grizzly. I think it was around $60 + shipping?

Thanks!
-Melissa

#213 Bombdog

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 10:01 AM

Elie
I can't find 78 degrees referred to. I know the instruction sheet you are talking about and I have not saved it from previous shipments. I looked at the package and there are no instructions.

However, I did find this reference on the BP website that says 55 degrees is the ideal temp for drying. I think they are using drying and curing as interchangable terms.
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#214 FoodMan

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 10:02 AM

This one, right? An email just went out to the wife :biggrin: as a suggestion.

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#215 FoodMan

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 10:09 AM

Elie
I can't find 78 degrees referred to.  I know the instruction sheet you are talking about and I have not saved it from previous shipments.  I looked at the package and there are no instructions.

However, I did find this reference on the BP website that says 55 degrees is the ideal temp for drying.  I think they are using drying and curing as interchangable terms.

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Thanks for checking Bomdog. I'll check when I get home.

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#216 jmolinari

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 10:12 AM

Optimal grown for the F-RM-52 is 85 deg. For the LHP it was higher, 95 deg.

I see what Elie is talking about...in the LHP paperwork, http://butcher-packe...ticle.asp?id=36 , it says the optimal drying conditions are 79deg.

I don't know why it says taht. That is very very high. The F-RM instructions say optimal conditions are 55deg.

jason

#217 davecap

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 12:05 PM

Optimal grown for the F-RM-52 is 85 deg. For the LHP it was higher, 95 deg.

I see what Elie is talking about...in the LHP paperwork, http://butcher-packe...ticle.asp?id=36 , it says the optimal drying conditions are 79deg.

I don't know why it says taht. That is very very high. The F-RM instructions say optimal conditions are 55deg.

jason

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I have a question regarding sausage making- I saw a story on a commercial sausage maker, who in order to keep the ground meat and ingredients cold, actually added pieces of dry ice to the mix.

Has anyone tried this? And if so, what was the result? Worth the expense?

#218 Chris Amirault

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 01:13 PM

Seems wicked cool, in more ways than one -- but given the fact that a little bit of care and room in your freezer can get you well within the proper range, I don't really see the need for the expense.
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#219 ronnie_suburban

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 01:35 PM

re: dry ice, since it doesn't really store well in a consumer freezer, it'd be an extra stop before every sausage run and that could become inconvenient. It would be interesting to try, though. That said, I know that at certain places, the final ingredient isn't (1 C of) ice water, it's actually nothing more than the same amount of crushed ice. A few commercial places I've spoken with do it this way.

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#220 Eastgate

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:43 PM

I made the salmon, shrimp, and spinach terrine yesterday. After-action report en route, with luck. (Oddly, I haven't found any discussion of this recipe here.)

Any suggestions on saucing or garnishing it?

#221 mdbasile

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 02:58 PM

mark, i have used LHP and F-RM. I prefer the F-RM. The LHP seems to have a distinct sharp tang, and to my tastes an "off " flavor i couldn't quite place.

I'll stick to the F-RM.

The M-EK isn't for internal use, i think it is just for getting mold on the casing. Did you have nice heavy mold development when you used it?

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Hmm - well I put it in last Salami and got great mold.... but do I need another bactoferm product too - to keep bacteria from forming?

Edited by mdbasile, 12 June 2006 - 03:19 PM.


#222 mdbasile

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:11 PM

Here is my lamb procuitto and venison salami hanging..

Posted Image

Pancetta, Guiancale, bacon curing and a pork shoulder in waiting...

Posted Image

Edited by mdbasile, 12 June 2006 - 03:20 PM.


#223 mdbasile

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:15 PM

Here is the difference between the KA - bottom and the Grizzly- Top. The one KA - was at the very beginning - started ok, as you can see on the left and then went straight to..SMEAR....

As you can see the others are good...

Posted Image

Edited by mdbasile, 12 June 2006 - 03:22 PM.


#224 ronnie_suburban

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:15 PM

Mark, that's a nice inventory you put up. And like a true charcutier, I see that you've got that raw butt ready to go, alongside the curing items. Very nice. :smile:

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#225 mdbasile

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:25 PM

Thanks Ron.... also 5 lbs of backfat, 2lbs veal chunks and one 7 lb pork belly not pictured...

So much pork... so little time....

BTW - the Vension Salami is with toasted crushed juniper berries and black, green and pink crushed peppercorns and some garlic... along with the kosher, dextrose and curing salt...

Edited by mdbasile, 12 June 2006 - 07:30 PM.


#226 edsel

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 03:40 PM

BTW, how much is this stuffer? My wife keeps asking what I want for Father's day and that might be an option.

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bigwino posted an amazon link for the stuffer. The five-pound one is $60. I ordered one and it's been sitting on the shelf waiting for me to find time to use it. :sad:

Chris, do you think the petroleum lube gunk is really needed for this? I have some berkshire pork shoulder on order from Heritage Foods - I may want to turn part of it into sausage and I'd hate to have it seize up in the stuffer. :shock:

#227 jmolinari

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:00 PM

MArk, i didn't know you cna use the M-EK as an internal bacteria..it may be fine though

jason

#228 ronnie_suburban

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:10 PM

Chris, do you think the petroleum lube gunk is really needed for this? I have some berkshire pork shoulder on order from Heritage Foods - I may want to turn part of it into sausage and I'd hate to have it seize up in the stuffer.  :shock:

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Not Chris here, but I do think it helps tremendously. As Melkor posted waaay back upthread, it makes cranking the stuffer (is that what the kids are calling it these days? :wink:) so much easier. I was skeptical and decided not to use it the first time I used my stuffer. Big mistake. The second time I did use the lube and the cranking was monumentally easier. So, not needed, but it will be a big help. You can probably just use a little shortening if you can't find the exact stuff.

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#229 mdbasile

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 07:28 PM

MArk, i didn't know you cna use the M-EK as an internal bacteria..it may be fine though

jason

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Jason - that is what I am hoping - for this batch of Venison salami... clearly my Tuscan and Chirizo are ok with the M-EK.... just want to know what is what.

Frankly I like the mold effect with the M-EK -- really gives that white powder coating!!!

#230 thomasevan

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 10:12 PM

Hi everyone!
Well after a year of perusing the forum, I have finally to start sharing and learning with all you wonderful foodies.
Here Goes!
I attempted to make spanish style chorizo a few weeks ago with mixed results, though one sausuge was left to air dry in my basement after stuffing and it was fantastic (20 days!), the rest of the ten pounds I fermented/sweated a little too long (4 days!) and they were rather ripe smelling after a week, so I discarded them. I had misread fermenting instructions off a website.

I am now on my second batch which are properly fermented and are curing in my fridge downstairs.
Chorizo and Salami.
Posted Image
They have been curing since late friday.
Posted Image

The Salami and chorizo in the centre do not have bactoferm and were not fermented. I am curious to do a comparitve tasting in about 15 days.

Cheers

Edited by thomasevan, 12 June 2006 - 10:15 PM.


#231 snowangel

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 10:20 PM

Welcome, Thomas! Glad that your first foray is in the Charcuterie topic.
Susan Fahning aka "snowangel"

#232 thomasevan

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 10:26 PM

Welcome, Thomas!  Glad that your first foray is in the Charcuterie topic.

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Thank you!

#233 mdbasile

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 03:13 AM

Thomas - yes welcome. I like the way you have hung the salami's (well hung !!?? -- sorry couldn't resist) - nice way to keep them from touching, and give a cool look.

Wouldn't one get fermentation from the sugars even w/out the bactoferm? I thought the bactoferm was a prevententative(if that is a word) for bacteria not a fermentation agent....

#234 jmolinari

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 03:23 AM

bactoferm is the fermantation agent. It is bacteria that is added, rather than relying on natural flora in your basement...as they do in cellars in Italy.

#235 dougal

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 05:00 AM

bactoferm is the fermantation agent. It is bacteria that is added, rather than relying on natural flora in your basement...

... to acidify the sausage to the point that the deadly, but tasteless, odourless and not visually evident Botulinus bacteria can't tolerate.
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

#236 mdbasile

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 05:26 AM

bactoferm is the fermantation agent. It is bacteria that is added, rather than relying on natural flora in your basement...

... to acidify the sausage to the point that the deadly, but tasteless, odourless and not visually evident Botulinus bacteria can't tolerate.

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OK got it. What role does the sugar then play?

Then I am back to my original question about the ME-K - does it do this job?

#237 Rubashov

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 07:24 AM

bactoferm is the fermantation agent. It is bacteria that is added, rather than relying on natural flora in your basement...

... to acidify the sausage to the point that the deadly, but tasteless, odourless and not visually evident Botulinus bacteria can't tolerate.

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OK got it. What role does the sugar then play?

Then I am back to my original question about the ME-K - does it do this job?

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As I understand from Michael's book, the sugar is what "feeds" the bacteria. Essentially, it is the sugar that is being fermented by the bacteria, thereby producing the acid that kills the bad stuff. If I recall correctly, one of the benefits of using dextrose is that it distributes more evenly in the meat mixture, making it ideal for fermentation.

That said, I don't think the ME-K serves the same purpose as the Bactoferm F-RM-52 recommended in the book. The F-RM-52 is a bacteria culture, whereas the ME-K-4 consists of mold spores (Penicillium nalgiovense) in freeze-dried form. Mold spores aren't going to carry out the fermentation process, so you'd be left with an un-fermented sausage. Rather, the ME-K seems designed as a product you mix with water and apply to the outside of the drying sausages to produce white mold. If I were drying in the temperature range conducive to botulism (above 40 farenheit, I think), I don't think I'd take the chance of leaving out the F-RM-52.

This, then, brings up a question I've had for a while. If the drying is being done in an environment below 40 degrees, is it necessary to use bacteria (Bactoferm) at all? In other words, is there any threat of botulism if the sausages spend their entire drying time within the so-called "safe" temperature range? Any thoughts?

-Rob

#238 jmolinari

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 08:05 AM

Actually, the acidifications kills any bacteria that isn't tollerant of high acid environments, not just botulism.

Dextrose is used because it is a simple sugar (monosaccharaide) which can be broken down by the bacteria to acid. Regular sugar is a disaccharide, which the bacteria cannot use.
Just like in beer making, the more sugar, the more acid (carbonation for beer) can be made.

jason

#239 ronnie_suburban

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 08:16 AM

Welcome, thomasevan, to the eGS and to this thread. Very nice to have you with us. That chorizo looks especially terrific.

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#240 Abra

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 09:30 AM

Wow, I go out of town for a week, and look how much you guys get done, including getting new converts. Welcome, new folks!

And you have saved me from a grievous error. My Bactoferm arrived while I was away, and now that I'm catching up, I see that I ordered the wrong stuff, since all I got was the M-EK. Drat, if I only read the book more carefully, I'd be ready to start now, instead of having to wait for another order to arrive. I wish the B-P site were more specific about the various uses, but I guess they mostly deal with the pros, and the likes of us have to scramble to keep up. When will I learn to RTFM?

In the meantime, I'll be concentrating on terrine, rillettes, and stuffed pig feet, in preparation for a party in a couple of weeks. Those pigs trotters from Niman are as long as my forearm, which is pretty long. I'm going to try a boned, stuffed, rolled thing that I'm hoping will be impressive. I'll show it off, if it works out.

Edited by Abra, 13 June 2006 - 09:31 AM.






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