67 replies to this topic

[tammylc]

In the fabulous new Andrew Shotts chocolate book, he's got a recipe for a strawberry pate de fruit that calls for "g pectin." I've never used pectin before, so I have no idea what "g" pectin refers to. The only pectin the store I was in yesterday had was something call universal pectin, which uses some sort of additional calcium liquid to gel, instead of just the sugar (or at least that's what the package insert says - it's supposed to be ideal for low sugar jellies, etc). What's g pectin, and where can I find it?

[Kerry Beal]

In the fabulous new Andrew Shotts chocolate book, he's got a recipe for a strawberry pate de fruit that calls for "g pectin."  I've never used pectin before, so I have no idea what "g" pectin refers to.  The only pectin the store I was in yesterday had was something call universal pectin, which uses some sort of additional calcium liquid to gel, instead of just the sugar (or at least that's what the package insert says - it's supposed to be ideal for low sugar jellies, etc).  What's g pectin, and where can I find it?

Pectin G is apparently what is referred to as amidated pectin in this reference.

I have 3 kinds of pectin in the house, apple pectin, pectin NH and pectin X58. The X58 says 'amidated pectin' on the label. It is the one that sets up in the presence of calcium, so is used I assume to make caramel that won't flow after you cut it. The recipe that I obtained it for is this one.

Would you be willing to PM me a paraphrased version of the recipe you have, as I haven't yet got that book?

[Kerry Beal]

Ok, so I've just tried the pate de fruit with the strawberries and this pectin. The recipe would need a little tweeking, cause without some citric acid and perhaps a bit of a fruit liqueur to set off the flavour you can't identify it as strawberry. You can also taste the pectin because it is such a high proportion of pectin to puree.

The advantage over apple pectin is the short cooking time, so you theoretically don't loose the fresh fruit flavour.

I think I molded this a bit thick, I'm sure you are aiming for a nice thin layer on top of a ganache like Thomas Haas does with his chocolates.

So I'm guessing this means that strawberries must be a source of calcium since this pectin requires it to set up.

[Desiderio]

Ahh Tammy , since you have the book , how do you like it?
I was contemplating to buy it .

[tammylc]

I haven't made anything from it yet. Kerry's made two things from recipes I've sent her, and doesn't seem very impressed.

He makes some claims that just don't seem right to me, with my small amount of experience so far. For example, he says you can't make a ganache with melted chocolate, or it will break. I make ganache with melted chocolate all the time, and have never had a broken ganache.

He proposes an odd method for tempering. He has you use the seed method, but to take the temperature all the way down to the bottom of the tempering curve, then back up to the working temperature. I thought the great advantage of seed tempering was that you didn't need to go down and then back up.

And nearly all the recipes call for small amount of 2 different chocolates. Which probably produces more complex results in the finished ganaches, but seems a little silly when it's something like half 60% and half 80% - why not just use 70%? But perhaps I just don't have a discriminating enough palate...

Lots of great ideas, though, for inspiration. I think it's a book that's not sure of its target market - it has a lot of basic information, including an extensive piece on how chocolate is made. And the recipes make small quantities (with strict instructions not to double or triple batches), which points towards it being a book marketed at ambitious home cooks. But then he calls for ingredients like the g pectin that inspired this post, with no explanation or source listed. Odd.

[Kerry Beal]

So Tammy sent me a recipe for a pate de fruit/ganache combination. The pate de fruit, using the special pectin ($80 kg) requires 14 grams of pectin for a recipe that contains only 140 g of fruit puree. It makes a nice firm pectin, but the flavour is one dimensional and not identifiable as strawberry.

The ganache used white and milk chocolate, a total of 147 grams. There was also 84 grams of liquid, along with some butter, glucose and 7 grams of cocoa butter. It made a very soft ganache. It would be extremely difficult to enrobe using dipping forks. The liquid componant was 35 grams of cream and 49 grams of balsamic vinegar, making it extremely acidic. I haven't tried dipping this yet, but I'm not sure I'm going to bother as the flavour does nothing for me and I know it's going to be a bitch to dip.

[mrose]

I have 3 kinds of pectin in the house, apple pectin, pectin NH and pectin X58.  The X58 says 'amidated pectin' on the label.  It is the one that sets up in the presence of calcium, so is used I assume to make caramel that won't flow after you cut it. 

Kerry

Are the 3 pectins interchangeable? I assume the common pectin found is apple pectin? Where did you get the g pecton? At $80 a kg it seems expensive & an amount that will last forever if you only used 14gm for a recipe?

Mark

[tammylc]

So Tammy sent me a recipe for a pate de fruit/ganache combination.  The pate de fruit, using the special pectin ($80 kg) requires 14 grams of pectin for a recipe that contains only 140 g of fruit puree.  It makes a nice firm pectin, but the flavour is one dimensional and not identifiable as strawberry.

The ganache used white and milk chocolate, a total of 147 grams.  There was also 84 grams of liquid, along with some butter, glucose and 7 grams of cocoa butter.  It made a very soft ganache.  It would be extremely difficult to enrobe using dipping forks.  The liquid componant was 35 grams of cream and 49 grams of balsamic vinegar, making it extremely acidic.  I haven't tried dipping this yet, but I'm not sure I'm going to bother as the flavour does nothing for me and I know it's going to be a bitch to dip.

As I mentioned to Kerry in PM, the recipe calls for freezing the pate de fruit/ganache combination for an hour. Then you remove it from the freezer and add a foot of melted chocolate on top of the ganache layer. Then freeze it for another hour. then cut into squares, which are supposed to set up at room temperature overnight to dry.

If I can master a strawberry pate de fruit, I'll try making a variation on the theme by using my regular dark chocolate balsamic ganache as the ganache layer. Is the kind of fruit jelly you make with gelatin (like the one in Carole Bloom's book) a possible substitute for this application, or would the gelatin not cope well with the temperature of the dipping chocolate?

[Kerry Beal]

I have 3 kinds of pectin in the house, apple pectin, pectin NH and pectin X58.  The X58 says 'amidated pectin' on the label.  It is the one that sets up in the presence of calcium, so is used I assume to make caramel that won't flow after you cut it. 

Kerry

Are the 3 pectins interchangeable? I assume the common pectin found is apple pectin? Where did you get the g pecton? At $80 a kg it seems expensive & an amount that will last forever if you only used 14gm for a recipe?

Mark

Nope, each pectin seems to have it's own purpose. The apple pectin requires boiling to 107 C to get the 75 Brix that you need for pates de fruit, so you don't get really fresh fruity jellies. The pectin NH is called nappage pectin and it is for making the gelee that you would finish a fruit tart with. I bought that one because Alana was kind enough to send me a couple of recipes that called for it from Torroblanca's book for 'fruit creams'. It makes a very soft jelly, I don't think it would give a pate de fruit with the kind of life span you get with apple pectin.

Now this new pectin, I bought because of that recipe I linked to in my first post on this thread and hadn't actually gotten around to trying yet. It's got potential I think, because it doesn't require long boiling to solidify, just the calcium. I guess I'm going to have to dig up some values of calcium in various fruits if I want to make fruit jellies with it, or add a little extraneous calcium.

I got the pectin X58 from a company called Qualifirst in Toronto. As I recall they have other pectins as well.

Edited because in my confusion I realize I never did link to the recipe that I purchased the Pectin X58 for. Here is the recipe.

Edited by Kerry Beal, 07 January 2007 - 03:54 PM.

[Kerry Beal]

As I mentioned to Kerry in PM, the recipe calls for freezing the pate de fruit/ganache combination for an hour.  Then you remove it from the freezer and add a foot of melted chocolate on top of the ganache layer.  Then freeze it for another hour.  then cut into squares, which are supposed to set up at room temperature overnight to dry.

If I can master a strawberry pate de fruit, I'll try making a variation on the theme by using my regular dark chocolate balsamic ganache as the ganache layer.  Is the kind of fruit jelly you make with gelatin  (like the one in Carole Bloom's book) a possible substitute for this application, or would the gelatin not cope well with the temperature of the dipping chocolate?

I don't think a jelly with regular gelatin would work, I think you would get water seepage. If the pectin you have says it needs calcium to set, try using just as the recipe for pectin G directs. But add a bit of citric or tartaric acid to the puree, and after boiling add maybe 5 to 10 grams of kirsch, I think that will punch up the strawberry flavour.

[tammylc]

Regular grocery store pectin is citrus pectin, I think.

I have the Pomona's Universal Pectin, and I'm going to give that a try. It comes with two parts - the pectin, and a calcium solution to make it gel. Seems suspiciously like this g pectin thing Kerry found, so I'm going to try using it just as the Shotts recipe calls for (ie. without adding the calcium liquid as per the box instructions) and see what happens.

[Kerry Beal]

I found something online that said that 166 g of strawberries have about 23 mg of calcium. I used 140 grams of puree and it set firmly.

[SushiCat]

Regular grocery store pectin is citrus pectin, I think.

I have the Pomona's Universal Pectin, and I'm going to give that a try.  It comes with two parts - the pectin, and a calcium solution to make it gel.  Seems suspiciously like this g pectin thing Kerry found, so I'm going to try using it just as the Shotts recipe calls for (ie. without adding the calcium liquid as per the box instructions) and see what happens.

Tammy, I use this for all my jams now as the old type I used to get is no longer available (or so I thought but I'll check out the types kerry discusses, anyway, I recommend adding the calcium solution first while your liquid is cool or at least warm but not boiling, and then adding the pectin portion. It seems to set better this way. Strawberries tend to need a lot of pectin.

Hope this helps,
S

[John DePaula]

Regular grocery store pectin is citrus pectin, I think.

I have the Pomona's Universal Pectin, and I'm going to give that a try.  It comes with two parts - the pectin, and a calcium solution to make it gel.  Seems suspiciously like this g pectin thing Kerry found, so I'm going to try using it just as the Shotts recipe calls for (ie. without adding the calcium liquid as per the box instructions) and see what happens.

Tammy, I'm very interested to hear if you get this to work with Pomona's. I tried it once and my Pate de fruit never set (it was the consistency of jelly). Perhaps more is needed, but I never wanted to risk it again since I didn't want to waste all of that puree again.

Please do let us know if you get it to work.

Thanks!

[tammylc]

The Pomona's worked well. Too well, I think, as the consistency was far too thick to pour or spread into a pan or frame.

Here are all the details:

The strawberry puree is made from 1 pound of strawberries and 1.5 oz of confectioners sugar, pureed in a food processor and strained.

The pate de fruit calls for 5 oz of the strawberry puree, 4.25 oz of sugar, and .5 oz (2 tbsp) of pectin. You mix the puree with half the sugar and bring it to a boil. Combine the rest of the sugar with the pectin, and whisk into the puree once it's boiling. Bring back to a boil and cook for 2 minutes, then pour into an 8" square pan lined with plastic wrap. Clearly the consistency is supposed to be more liquid than what I ended up with, since it calls for "shaking the pan to spread it into the corners."

After chilling it in the fridge for the suggested 20 minutes, I ended up with something that's near to the consistency of fruit leather. Yum. (Not!) Actually, the flavor is not bad, and that's even without Kerry's suggested additions of some citric acid and/or kirsch. But the texture is totally wrong. (My husband the strawberry addict is happily eating it, however.)

Tuesday I'll try again with half the pectin and report back. John - what was the ratio of Pomona's in the recipe you made (might help me know if half is too little).

[tammylc]

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner. Using just 1 tbsp of the Pomona's instead of 2 seems to be just about right. Now I'm waiting for the dark chocolate balsamic ganache to set up, and I'll be able to assess how it all works together. And then I'll have to see how it dips, and if there's any problems with the pate de fruit during that.

[John DePaula]

...

John - what was the ratio of Pomona's in the recipe you made (might help me know if half is too little).

OMG, it's been so long I just don't remember. However, I'm pretty sure that I'd have followed the instructions on the insert pretty closely. FWIW, I was using Morello Cherry puree - not sure if that would have made a difference.

Glad to hear that you've had success with the Pomona's. I may have to revisit that one.

Thanks, Tammy.

[alanamoana]

Ding-ding-ding!  We have a winner.  Using just 1 tbsp of the Pomona's instead of 2 seems to be just about right.  Now I'm waiting for the dark chocolate balsamic ganache to set up, and I'll be able to assess how it all works together.  And then I'll have to see how it dips, and if there's any problems with the pate de fruit during that.

tammy, did the recipe call for powdered sugar? i'm just wondering if the corn starch in the powdered sugar might have anything to do with it setting up more than you expected.

[tammylc]

Alanamoana - Yes, the recipe did call for powdered sugar. I too was wondering if that has some impact on the amount of jelling.

John - I think it's going to vary a lot between fruits based on the calcium content of the puree. With non-calcium rich fruits, I suppose you'd need to add the calcium solution that comes in the package too. According to the Internet, 166 grams of strawberries have 23.24 mg of calcium. On this page they say that 1 cup of cherries has 17.6 mg of calcium, but they don't specify what kind of cherries they are talking about.

My taste testers mostly like the flavor, but feel that the texture of the pate de fruit is a little too hard. I've not had a chocolate with a layer of pate de fruit it before, so I'm not sure what consistency I'm aiming for. And obviously, there's going to be a limit as to how soft it can get and still be dippable. Anyone have any experience with the subject to share? I think I'll try using just 2 tsp of Pomona's in the next batch.

At Kerry's suggestion, I want to try some citric acid to pump up the strawberry flavor. But I've never used it before - any guidance to what amount I should start with?

[Desiderio]

I had some jelly /ganache chocolates in November , from L'Artisan du chocolat.Raspberry and wine combined with ganache layer, and I have to say I am not a big fan of fruit and chocolate in general, but those jelly /ganache chocolates were incredible.The texture was perfect the ganache wasnt overpowering the jelly and viceversa.The consistency of the jelly was soft , not lethery ,not runny just perfect,I was even wondering if in any of those two he uses agar agar instead, I know they said agar agar tend to give a grainy texture compare to pectine.
I think it will only take sperimentation, I still need to do some with the wine jelly, let me look for the thread.

[Desiderio]

Ok this one thread , I am looking for others and put em here so we can check them out

http://forums.egulle...showtopic=84954

http://forums.egulle...showtopic=95400

Edited by Desiderio, 10 January 2007 - 09:59 AM.

[duckduck]

I haven't read this whole thread so if I miss something, have patience. I've been out sick a couple days and it may take me a little time to catch up. I had questioned Drew about the g pectin and it's something he developed for his work. He said it's a soft one intended for bonbon use and will be available at Chef Rubber in the next week or so.

[Kerry Beal]

I want to try some citric acid to pump up the strawberry flavor.  But I've never used it before - any guidance to what amount I should start with?

For the quantity in that recipe I would use about 1/8 tsp citric acid and add maybe 2 tsp of kirsch if you have it.

[tammylc]

Thanks Kerry. I don't have any kirsch, but I'll see if any of my neighbors do. When do I add the citric acid and/or kirsch?

[Kerry Beal]

Thanks Kerry.  I don't have any kirsch, but I'll see if any of my neighbors do.  When do I add the citric acid and/or kirsch?

Add the citic acid to the puree and the booze after cooking.

[bonbonman]

Hello to all and thank you for the kind words. I am very happy to see so many people talking about the book. It was a lot of work as well as fun to make. Clearly, I was expecting it to get torn apart, in a good way, and I am glad all of you are pointing out both things that you like and things that you are hesitant about. My apologies for the whole pectin issue. This is somthing that I have been working on for a couple of years and just got the good people at Chef Rubber to make for me. The "g" pectin is one that I formulated to make the chocolates in my book and it is the one I use in production. For all of you out there that use Vitpris, you may now switch to "g" pectin. I have used Vitpris for more that 13 years and the price has steadily risen to astronomical prices due to only one person getting it in the United States, as far as I know. If I told you the number of disasters I threw in the garbage creating this pectin, you would think I am nuts. Thank you Kerry for pointing out the citric acid, very smart. There is a citric acid milled into the "g" pectin for flavor and textural reasons. As the quantity of "g" pectin used in the recipe seems high to some of you, it is not straight pectin. It is a milled blend of a dextrose, acid and several types of pectin. I welcome questions and comments and I will try to answer all of them. Andrew Shotts

[Kerry Beal]

Hello to all and thank you for the kind words. I am very happy to see so many people talking about the book. It was a lot of work as well as fun to make. Clearly, I was expecting it to get torn apart, in a good way, and I am glad all of you are pointing out both things that you like and things that you are hesitant about. My apologies for the whole pectin issue. This is somthing that I have been working on for a couple of years and just got the good people at Chef Rubber to make for me. The "g" pectin is one that I formulated to make the chocolates in my book and it is the one I use in production. For all of you out there that use Vitpris, you may now switch to "g" pectin. I have used Vitpris for more that 13 years and the price has steadily risen to astronomical prices due to only one person getting it in the United States, as far as I know. If I told you the number of disasters I threw in the garbage creating this pectin, you would think I am nuts. Thank you Kerry for pointing out the citric acid, very smart. There is a citric acid milled into the "g" pectin for flavor and textural reasons. As the quantity of "g" pectin used in the recipe seems high to some of you, it is not straight pectin. It is a milled blend of a dextrose, acid and several types of pectin. I welcome questions and comments and I will try to answer all of them. Andrew Shotts

Andrew, welcome! It's going to be wonderful to have you here.

First I must correct something from earlier in this thread, the balsamic ganache actually did set up, and I as able to cut it with the gel underneath quite easily. I never got around to posting that fact. It did have a strong vinegar flavour, but I must admit I wasn't using the best balsamic. I'm sure a better vinegar would have had a mellower effect. I had a chef suggest once taking one of those little net booties you squeeze lemons in and putting it over the neck of the vinegar bottle with the lid off and allow it to concentrate that way - no heat damage like boiling it down. I suspect vinegar concentrated that way would give me a better tasting ganache.

Vitpris as I understand it is apple pectin. I recall seeing only a couple of american sites that carry it, I've found a couple of Canadian sources but it's taken me a year or so. What is the cost of the 'g' pectin going to be (not that I need another pectin - having 4 kg in the house already)? Would we be out of line asking what sort of pectins are in the blend for those of us who are likely to blend our own?

[Trishiad]

I'd like to offer a great big welcome to Bonbonman Andrew Shotts. I have long admired your chocolates and your style. I love your ganache and pate combinations and have been wanting to work more with pate but have found the prices of pectin prohibitive and the varieties confusing. I am excited to see what Chef Rubber will be offering on your behalf. I recieved your book early this week and will start playing soon.
By the way, I appreciate very much that although you make the finest bonbons, you are not afraid to make a simple and perfect caramel corn because that's what the people want. It's nice to know that someone with your experience is not pretentious!

Welcome to eG.

[bonbonman]

First off, the pate de fruit should be on top when you cut the chocolate. As, for the "g" pectin I am sorry but I can not divulge the ingredients more than I already have. Thank you for the welcome. The price on the pectin should be available today.

[bonbonman]

I even make Rice Krispy treats, with Fruit Loops folded in for color, dipped in chocolate.