61 replies to this topic

[Dailey]

i just finished making this buttercream from judy rosenberg's book, its very good. i like the fact that she says it doesn't need refrideration, has anyone used it and do you know how it holds up on a cake that has been filled and iced with it? seems awful light and delicate. looks like it would smooth like a dream, though.

buttercream recipe

1 stick of butter
1 1/4 cup powered sugar
3/4 cup plus 2 tb. chilled heavy whipping cream

Edited by Dailey, 22 September 2006 - 11:41 AM.

[RodneyCk]

I see this version listed online, using a mocha mixture, yum, but same recipe. My question is why start the whipping process in a food processor and and then transfer to a mixer to finish? Interesting.

[Sugarella]

1 stick of butter
1 1/4 cup powered sugar
3/4 cup plus 2 tb. chilled heavy whipping cream

I really can't understand why she'd say this doesn't need refridgeration....

[sanrensho]

I really can't understand why she'd say this doesn't need refridgeration.... 

I'm wondering about this too...

[JeanneCake]

If you visit their website they suggest you can let a cake sit out for up to 24 hours if necessary..... Rosie's Website Look under serving instructions (not all cakes are to be left out for that long, she gives a list of what can be held for how long)

[RodneyCk]

I would assume the sugar would make it safe for a day or so, acting as a preservative. Many other frostings and buttercreams, like the decorator's buttercream recipes (usually) have milk or cream added, which is the same thing.

[K8memphis]

Daily, how is it without vanilla??
Did you add any???
I don't think I could resist.

[K8memphis]

And I do not know about the to chill or not to chill the icing. However, Sarah has a similar formula on her site and it says the iced cake can be kept at room temp for several days.

And I could be wrong but I think it's (leaving out a glass of cream as opposed to leaving out an iced cake) different because of the process the ingredients go through changes everything up. I've never heard of anyone getting sick from old icing. Mostly because once icing goes bad, you can't even stay in the same room with it if your nose is in proper working condition.

I'd say between Sarah and Rosie it's as they say. Fine at room temp.

Greater minds than mine will reply though.

Edited by K8memphis, 22 September 2006 - 04:20 PM.

[Dailey]

I see this version listed online, using a mocha mixture, yum, but same recipe.  My question is why start the whipping process in a food processor and and then transfer to a mixer to finish?  Interesting.

i didn't feel like digging out my food processor so i just used my KA and it worked fine. rosie's book says this paricular buttercream can stay out for several days, i assumed because of the high fat content of the whipping cream and it being ultra-paterized (well, mine was anyway). i only used salted butter and have been known to leave it out for several day, as well as cream cheese for that manner. i was under the assumption that these products don't go bad in the sense that they would make you sick, just lose their flavor, freshness, etc...but i could be wrong!

kate, lol! of course, i couldn't resist adding vanilla! yum, it was reallly good and so easy to make.

thanks everyone for the replies!

[JeanneCake]

You also have to consider that Rosie's book is intended for a home baker and her website also is talking about things you're taking home to consume.

But, if you are a professional selling to the public, you have to be more than careful. There's a lot of anecdotal information that we take for granted, but if the health dept comes calling, someone has some explaining to do. And what I learned in food safety class regarding the 4 hour time/temp window is that it isn't the 4 hours in your control. It's cumulative. You can't start the clock over again if you put the X (whatever it is) back in the fridge after it has been out for 3.5 hours. So leaving something out when it's just your family that will eat it is one thing. If you are selling a product, it is better to err on the side of caution. Just look at that whole bagged spinach issue last week!

[RodneyCk]

You are correct JeanneCake, thanks for making that distinction.

Here is something I found for us cake makers regarding Italian Meringue Buttercreams. I always assumed that the boiled sugar involved was hot enough to pasteurize the egg whites, but according to Harold McGee in his book, On Food And Cooking, the bowl temp only reaches 130 to 135 degrees F, not enough. He recommends, for those concerned or as JeanneCake pointed out, for those selling commercially; to use either pasteurized eggs or a different alternative is the Swiss Meringue Buttercream method. By this method alone, you make sure the temp is brought up to the required 140 degrees to pasteurization. Very interesting...

Here is also another question. Why is it confections make with centers of cream and sugar are allowed to be stored at room temperature, shipped across the country in all manner of weather, and still remain food safe? I need to see if McGee says anything about sugar as natural preservative.

Edited by RodneyCk, 23 September 2006 - 10:31 AM.

[miladyinsanity]

Here is also another question.  Why is it confections make with centers of cream and sugar are allowed to be stored at room temperature, shipped across the country in all manner of weather, and still remain food safe?  I need to see if McGee says anything about sugar as natural preservative.

Define confection, please. If you mean stuff like molded chocolates, it's because a properly made chocolate will have the filling sealed off from the environment.

Sugar is a preservative if there's enough sugar. If the concentration of sugar is high enough, bacteria cannot survive in it. That's why jam, for instance, keeps for so long. Same thing goes for salt.

Edited by miladyinsanity, 23 September 2006 - 11:20 AM.

[Patrick S]

Here is also another question.  Why is it confections make with centers of cream and sugar are allowed to be stored at room temperature, shipped across the country in all manner of weather, and still remain food safe?  I need to see if McGee says anything about sugar as natural preservative.

Define confection, please. If you mean stuff like molded chocolates, it's because a properly made chocolate will have the filling sealed off from the environment.

In addition, the "water activity" (Aw), which is essentially a measure of how much water is available for use by microbes, plays a major role in determining shelf life, and two different products, even though include the same list of ingredients, can have very different Aw, and therefore different shelf lives. Bacteria and molds grow very poorly on materials with Aw below 0.6, even those that are rich in cream and sugar. Chocolatiers generally are aware of this and generally design their product to have an Aw that allows for a longer shelf life. In addition, many mass-produced confections will include preservatives like benzoate as well.

[McDuff]

We get audited for sanitation 4 times a year and I once asked the guy about leaving our powdered sugar/butter buttercream out at room temp and he said it has very low water content...but he added, a great line, "Don't confuse food safety with food quality." My pucker factor is only a couple of days, if I know it's going to get used up. Otherwise, especially in the hot weather, it goes into the reefer. I've seen it, and big blocks of butter left out, grow mold.

[Kris]

You are correct JeanneCake, thanks for making that distinction. 

Here is something I found for us cake makers regarding Italian Meringue Buttercreams.  I always assumed that the boiled sugar involved was hot enough to pasteurize the egg whites, but according to Harold McGee in his book, On Food And Cooking, the bowl temp only reaches 130 to 135 degrees F, not enough.  He recommends, for those concerned or as JeanneCake pointed out, for those selling commercially; to use either pasteurized eggs or a different alternative is the Swiss Meringue Buttercream method.  By this method alone, you make sure the temp is brought up to the required 140 degrees to pasteurization.  Very interesting...

So even when the sugar syrup (for IMBC) is heated to 248 - 250 degrees F, it's still not hot enough to heat the egg whites to proper pasterization temperature?

[SweetSide]

You are correct JeanneCake, thanks for making that distinction. 

Here is something I found for us cake makers regarding Italian Meringue Buttercreams.  I always assumed that the boiled sugar involved was hot enough to pasteurize the egg whites, but according to Harold McGee in his book, On Food And Cooking, the bowl temp only reaches 130 to 135 degrees F, not enough.  He recommends, for those concerned or as JeanneCake pointed out, for those selling commercially; to use either pasteurized eggs or a different alternative is the Swiss Meringue Buttercream method.  By this method alone, you make sure the temp is brought up to the required 140 degrees to pasteurization.  Very interesting...

So even when the sugar syrup (for IMBC) is heated to 248 - 250 degrees F, it's still not hot enough to heat the egg whites to proper pasterization temperature?

Newer published information says no. To be on the safe side, information I've read from American Egg Board and other sources says to use the Swiss Meringue method and heat the whites/sugar to 160F. The 140F for pasteurization require holding at that temperature for three minutes. The 160F must simply be reached, not held.

Being very leary of making someone ill, I always use SMBC and cook to the 160F now.

[etalanian]

When I had my bakery we refrigerated or froze everything. But at home I take the cue from my grandmother: always use butter, lard or suet, never shortening, and leave the butter for baking out overnight. Leave the butter for table use out all the time; it's better at room temperature.

My family always has soft butter to use on toast, baquettes, or whatever. We've never had it mold, even when the butter is around for several days, and no one has ever gotten sick. I leave out cakes with buttercream or ganache frostings, bread puddings, and pumpkin pies.

While you can't ignore the health department's warning when you have a business, and I wouldn't want to put anyone's life at risk, I think we in the states go overboard when it comes to sanitation. What other country is as obsessive about these things? When I was in Morocco with my son this year we ate things all the time from the market stalls. We never became ill. Maybe our obsession with keeping bacteria at bay will ultimately reduce our ability to fight off bacteria when they do enter our systems.

Just a thought.

Eileen

[Patrick S]

You are correct JeanneCake, thanks for making that distinction. 

Here is something I found for us cake makers regarding Italian Meringue Buttercreams.  I always assumed that the boiled sugar involved was hot enough to pasteurize the egg whites, but according to Harold McGee in his book, On Food And Cooking, the bowl temp only reaches 130 to 135 degrees F, not enough.  He recommends, for those concerned or as JeanneCake pointed out, for those selling commercially; to use either pasteurized eggs or a different alternative is the Swiss Meringue Buttercream method.  By this method alone, you make sure the temp is brought up to the required 140 degrees to pasteurization.  Very interesting...

So even when the sugar syrup (for IMBC) is heated to 248 - 250 degrees F, it's still not hot enough to heat the egg whites to proper pasterization temperature?

That would depend, obviously, on a number of factors -- for instance, the starting temperature of the egg whites (e.g. are they a "room temperature" 70F or preheated to 120F over a hot-water bath), and the ratio of sugar syrup to egg whites. I've checked with the probe thermometer using RLB mousseline buttercream (which has a relatively low syrup/whites ratio) and room temp whites and no, it did not reach 140F, but I've wondered about using a blow dryer or heat gun to get the whites as hot as possible before adding the syrup, so that the syrup would push the whites into pasteurization temps. . .

[RodneyCk]

i didn't feel like digging out my food processor so i just used my KA and it worked fine.

Ok, I made this buttercream tonight and I followed your suggestion of not using the food processor. I just whipped it for 5 minutes with the wire whisk attachment. It separated.

I figured that maybe like a meringue buttercream, it would come together during the beating phase, so I switched to the paddle attachment and beat. It says 15 to 20 minutes of beating. 15 minutes into beating it still was not coming together, so I added a bit more powdered sugar, about 1/4 to 1/2 cup, to see if I could salvage it. It came together. I beat it another 10 minutes (my KA got a workout) and it looked ok. It tasted good, but was not all that smooth, a bit grainy and still looked a tiny bit wet, like it could have been beat more.

What did your's look like appearance and texture-wise Dailey? In the end, I kept thinking that maybe I should have pulled out the food processor.

[Dailey]

i didn't feel like digging out my food processor so i just used my KA and it worked fine.

Ok, I made this buttercream tonight and I followed your suggestion of not using the food processor. I just whipped it for 5 minutes with the wire whisk attachment. It separated.

I figured that maybe like a meringue buttercream, it would come together during the beating phase, so I switched to the paddle attachment and beat. It says 15 to 20 minutes of beating. 15 minutes into beating it still was not coming together, so I added a bit more powdered sugar, about 1/4 to 1/2 cup, to see if I could salvage it. It came together. I beat it another 10 minutes (my KA got a workout) and it looked ok. It tasted good, but was not all that smooth, a bit grainy and still looked a tiny bit wet, like it could have been beat more.

What did your's look like appearance and texture-wise Dailey? In the end, I kept thinking that maybe I should have pulled out the food processor.

rodney,
sorry you had trouble. part of the reason i didn't used my food processor is because a pastry chef from another site said she never uses her processor, just whips it in her KA, so that's what i did. at first i thought i did something wrong because when i went to look in my KA after a couple minutes, it looked curdled. i continued to whip it figuring i had nothing to lose. after a few more minutes it still looked curdled so i switched and used my paddle attachment and let it beat at high speed for about 12-15 minutes. came back the third time, and like they say, 3rd time is a charm! perfectly light and fluffy, and really, really tasty. but i added vanilla to mine. the first thing one of my taste-testers said when they tried it was "very smooth". oh, and if it helps, i added 140 grams of powered sugar, i weigh everything. i usually iced all my cakes in SMBC but i'm really liking this buttercream. as a matter of fact, i just finished eating a big slice of cake with this icing slathered all over it, it really has the taste and texture of french buttercream. i hope you try it again and have better luck next time.

[RodneyCk]

rodney,
  sorry you had trouble.     part of the reason i didn't used my food processor is because a pastry chef from another site said she never uses her processor, just whips it in her KA, so that's what i did.  at first i thought i did something wrong because when i went to look in my KA after a couple minutes, it looked curdled.  i continued to whip it figuring i had nothing to lose.  after a few more minutes it still looked curdled so i switched and used my paddle attachment and let it beat at high speed for about 12-15 minutes.  came back the third time, and like they say, 3rd time is a charm!   perfectly light and fluffy, and really, really tasty.  but i added vanilla to mine.  the first thing one of my taste-testers said when they tried it was "very smooth".  oh, and if it helps, i added 140 grams of powered sugar, i weigh everything.  i usually iced all my cakes in SMBC but i'm really liking this buttercream.  as a matter of fact, i just finished eating a big slice of cake with this icing slathered all over it, it really has the taste and texture of french buttercream.  i hope you try it again and have better luck next time.

Thanks Dailey. I will weigh the sugar next time (I was rushing it) and try the food processor, out of curiosity. I like the frosting too and I think the problem was I did not beat it long enough after if did finally come together. I used vanilla and a bit of rum extract in mine, yum.

I usually make IMB or French (actually James McNair's version) MB, but I recently tried a cupcake and the frosting was SO good. I knew right away it was a whipped cream frosting of some sort, maybe even stabilized, but very, very similar to this recipe. I am eager to make it correctly to compare properly.

[sanrensho]

Does this recipe harden quite a bit at fridge temps, like a typical IMB? What is the consistency like at fridge temps?

Due to the whipping cream, I'd be loathe to have this sitting out for a few days, but would consider using it straight out of the fridge or for immediate consumption. Depending on the consistency, of course.

Thanks.

[SweetSide]

i just finished making this buttercream from judy rosenberg's book, its very good.  i like the fact that she says it doesn't need refrideration, has anyone used it and do you know how it holds up on a cake that has been filled and iced with it?  seems awful light and delicate.  looks like it would smooth like a dream, though.

buttercream recipe

1 stick of butter
1 1/4 cup powered sugar
3/4 cup plus 2 tb. chilled heavy whipping cream

Dailey, with Rodneyck's mention of curdling and your issue with having it come together, can you post the procedure you used for this recipe? And if it is different than the published procedure? I'd like to try it, but I'd like to see the directions too and don't have the book...

[Sarah Phillips]

Here is something I found for us cake makers regarding Italian Meringue Buttercreams.  I always assumed that the boiled sugar involved was hot enough to pasteurize the egg whites, but according to Harold McGee in his book, On Food And Cooking, the bowl temp only reaches 130 to 135 degrees F, not enough.  He recommends, for those concerned or as JeanneCake pointed out, for those selling commercially; to use either pasteurized eggs or a different alternative is the Swiss Meringue Buttercream method.  By this method alone, you make sure the temp is brought up to the required 140 degrees to pasteurization.  Very interesting...

I am glad I also pointed out this information on my website with the Italian Meringue Buttercream Recipe! http://www.baking911...?showtopic=1209

I wrote: "*NOTE: In the book, ON FOOD AND COOKING, by Harold McGee, page 108, he writes that 'Because much of the syrup's heat is lost to the bowl...the foam mass normally gets no hotter than 130 or 135 degrees F, which is insufficient to kill salmonella.' You can use reconstituted powdered pasteurized egg whites to make the Italian Meringue Buttercream if you are concerned."

Edited by Sarah Phillips, 25 September 2006 - 07:11 AM.

[Sarah Phillips]

i just finished making this buttercream from judy rosenberg's book, its very good.  i like the fact that she says it doesn't need refrideration, has anyone used it and do you know how it holds up on a cake that has been filled and iced with it?  seems awful light and delicate.  looks like it would smooth like a dream, though.

buttercream recipe

1 stick of butter
1 1/4 cup powered sugar
3/4 cup plus 2 tb. chilled heavy whipping cream

I would recommend that Rosie's recipe remains under refrigeration until the recipe is anaylzed by a professional microbiologist -- whether or not something needs refrigeration has to do with the ratio of whipping cream to fat and sugar, how well an emulsion has been formed (such as with a ganache recipe), and so on. Each buttercream recipe type is different.

I am not a microbiologist and there have been changes in my philosophy, after I have done a lot more research on the topic, especially concerning the storage of chocolate emulsions, such as ganache. http://www.baking911...p?showtopic=807 Also, baking911.com's food scientist, plus baking911.com's advisory board's food scientist, Shirley Corriher, both recommend that a microbiologist analyze such recipes to determine whether they need refrigeration or not because there are so many variables.

All of the recipes in my Baking 9-1-1 Book and the ones that I have authored have all been analyzed professionally, by the way, and the storage information is accurate.

It's the way I have to answer since I am working with the public....I am sure you understand! But, I can give storage recommendations for frostings, and it's up to you to judge whether or not you want to follow them or not from your own past experiences....

Edited by Sarah Phillips, 25 September 2006 - 11:15 AM.

[Sarah Phillips]

And I do not know about the to chill or not to chill the icing. However, Sarah has a similar formula on her site and it says the iced cake can be kept at room temp for several days.

And I could be wrong but I think it's (leaving out a glass of cream as opposed to leaving out an iced cake) different because of the process the ingredients go through changes everything up. I've never heard of anyone getting sick from old icing. Mostly because once icing goes bad, you can't even stay in the same room with it if your nose is in proper working condition.

I'd say between Sarah and Rosie it's as they say. Fine at room temp.

Greater minds than mine will reply though.

Hi K8!

The recipe you linked to on your post on baking911.com, has a different proportion of cream to powdered sugar and fat than Rosie's recipe, and mine does not refrigeration. That's the difference between the two!

[Sarah Phillips]

but I've wondered about using a blow dryer or heat gun to get the whites as hot as possible before adding the syrup, so that the syrup would push the whites into pasteurization temps. . .

Hmmm...it's a very interesting thought, Patrick...

[RodneyCk]

I just wanted to pop in and say thanks to Patrick and the others that have posted here regarding my question about confections, a wealth of information. Also, thank you Sarah for weighing in, it is always interesting to see how authors respond, especially to this topic. There are so many conflicting statements out there.

[Dailey]

sanrensho,
yes, it hardens like IMBC when refriderated, however, i left part of it out for a couple days just to see if it would go "bad", ( just out of curiousity) and it was fine. of course, it was just for me and my taste-testers and not for a customer. then again, i'm like eileen in the sense that i think we go a bit overboard on the refrideration issue. my family is from mexico so i grew up with things not refriderated that would make others gasp. i mean, my dad has been drinking a shake made from raw eggs every day since as far back as i can remember.

cheryl, i just mixed all the ingredients in my KA with the whisk attachment for about 10 minutes, it looked terribly curdled. then i switched to the paddle and let it go on high for about 15 min. and it became perfectly light and fluffy. here is what rosie says about the buttercream
"a fluffy white frosting not overly sugary. this recipe is one you'll use often. it last several days out of the refriderator, but will require rewhipping after it sits out for a while to restore its fluffy texture."

1. place all ingredients in food processor and process until light and fluffy, about 5 min. stop machine several times to scrape down the sides of the bowl with rubber spatula.

2. transfer the buttercream to a med-size bowl and using paddle attachment of electric mixer, continue to beat on med-high until buttercream is white and fluffy (it really does turn white!) 15-20 min. stop the mixer to scrape the bowl several times with rubber spatula. if you don't have paddle attachment, used the whisk. use frosting within an hour or it will need rewhipping. makes 2-2 1/4 cups, enought to fill and frost 2 or 4 layer cake.


hey, maybe rosie did have this tested, maybe i'll email her and ask.

thanks again for all the input.

[sanrensho]

sanrensho,
  yes, it hardens like IMBC when refriderated, however, i left part of it out for a couple days just to see if it would go "bad", ( just out of curiousity) and it was fine.  of course, it was just for me and my taste-testers and not for a customer.  then again, i'm like eileen in the sense that i think we go a bit overboard on the refrideration issue.

Thanks for the comments. I'm not ultra-paranoid in any sense (raw eggs=no problem), but I'd still feel more comfortable refrigerating this particular buttercream and bringing it up to room temp for consumption. It's a minor step anyway and only means that I have to clear up some fridge space.

I hope Rosie responds to you. Would be interesting to hear what she says.