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Smoking Brisket: The Topic

Charcuterie

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#61 Msk

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 08:11 PM

OK all thanks for the help here's how it looked.


Posted Image

It turned out great. They only change I'd make is to skip the broiling/searing part because at 210F internal temp, and a crispy crust, it was difficult to slice, even after letting it set for 15 minutes.

The side facing the water (shown in the pic) was more moist and the top a bit dry which made it so hard to slice.

If I could have gotten a brisket with the fat cap intact it also might have helped the top stay moist. Anyway, this tasted fantastic and was the type of brisket I was looking for. BBQ-style brisket, in an oven, without intense smoke flavor.

I think its just a matter of a couple of little tweaks at this point.

Thank you all so much.

Msk

#62 bloviatrix

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 09:05 PM

What did you rub the brisket with initially?
"Some people see a sheet of seaweed and want to be wrapped in it. I want to see it around a piece of fish."-- William Grimes

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#63 wesza

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 10:23 PM

MSK:

Terrific picture.

If I knew that your were cooking a closely trimmed flat Brisket I would have recommended that your turn it several times during cooking. Another method would be to have had your butcher tie a fat cat to the top surface of the meat and allow to cook, as the draining melting fat cover would have keep the meat moister and more juicy.

Please check your knife edge for sharpness as well because i've never come across any cut of meat that wasn't easily sliced using any type of Meat Slicing Carving or Slicing Blade, I do prefer a Granton Edge as it slices neatly without sticking.. Even meat with thickly seared charred exteriors cuts smoothly.

With your results i'm sure that you'll tweak the meat exactly the way you want it to taste. If I ever require a Photographer to take a picture of anything cooked I hope your available.

If you've got trim or corners left over it's great for a beef hash.

Irwin :biggrin:
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#64 Msk

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 07:08 AM

What did you rub the brisket with initially?

3 part(s) paprika
2 part(s) salt
3 part(s) garlic powder
1 part(s) black pepper
2 part(s) onion powder
1 part(s) cayenne pepper
1 part(s) dried oregano
1 part(s) dried thyme


I make it in huge batches and use it for everything from fish to chicken to beef. The last two briskets I made I put on the rub 1-2 days ahead then vacuum-packed it. This one I just put in a ziploc after applying the rub (I was lazy).

This is also prior to saucing, which I made with BBQ-sauce, the reduced jus from the brisket, vinegar, and cayenne pepper sauce.


If you've got trim or corners left over it's great for a beef hash.


Leftovers? :biggrin: Sopping up those little bits with the sauce on the rest of the homemade foccacia was fantastic.

I'll take into consideration your added comments as it seems I can never find a brisket that isn't trimmed. Thanks again.

Msk

#65 phaelon56

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 07:56 AM

Perhaps this belongs on a separate thread but I have a question about dry rub. I see some folks doing the Foodsaver vac wrap overnight with the rub and others just wrapping it with plastic. I was once advise that any cut of meat to be treated with dry rub should be immersed in water that's just off the boil for about 20 - 30 seconds and then drained before rubbing in the rub. The notion is that this brief flash of hot water opens the pores of the emat and allows the flavor of the rub to be drawn in more effectively. Have any of you tried this and what is your opinion? Please note that I am NOT recommeding parboiling - this immersion is so brief that it hardly even constitutes blanching.

#66 Msk

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 08:07 AM

Phae,

What you describe is why people often use a Foodsaver in combination with a dry rub---to open the pores. The theory sounds reasonable to me, but I have never tried it, nor heard of it.

Msk

#67 fifi

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 09:21 AM

Pores? Muscle and fat tissue doesn't have "pores". Vacuum processing may drive some seasoning deeper between the fibers but there are no pores. On a big piece of dense meat like brisket, I don't see any difference with dry rubs. I just let it go overnight in a zip lock bag, if I think about it. Different story with liquid marinades and less dense meat.
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#68 jmcgrath

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 09:40 AM

Wow 215 F internal temp, most other stuff I see says 180-195F,  well I'll give it a go.

Each brisket is different and each brisket is done when it's done. Minutes per pound and internal temperature should only be used a guidelines. I barbecue packer cut briskets and find they are usually done somewhere in the range of 195F to 205F. When you can stick a fork into the flat and easily twist it, the flat is done. At that time, I remove the point and put it back in the pit for additional rendering. The point and the flat will never get done at the same time. If you don't want to use a two step process, buy untrimmed flats.

A trimmed flat is better used for a boiled dinner. Is the term "boiled dinner" something that people outside of New England understand?

Jim

#69 Msk

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 09:49 AM

Pores? Muscle and fat tissue doesn't have "pores".

Jim, not sure what a "boiled dinner is." would you mind elaborating?

I will say I wish I had more fat on that brisket, there was some untrimmed fat on one spot on the top. It was very neet to see at the end that it had rendered off completely by the end of the cooking. I had bad visions of that gross fat part of a steak I got when I was a kid.

Msk

Thats interesting to know. I have read here and elsewhere that vacuum packing does increase the penetration of dry marinades. I will say I did not notice any difference this time without the vacuum packing.

I frequently see people refer to pores in meat, perhaps they are just referring to the gaps between muscle striations.

#70 jmcgrath

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 11:09 AM

Jim, not sure what a "boiled dinner is." would you mind elaborating?

Pot au feu. I Googled "New England Boiled Dinner" and most of the recipes called for corned beef and cabbage. I would have called that corned beef and cabbage.

Jim

#71 ducphat30

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 11:00 PM

I know this may sound crazy, as a reccommendation, but it tastes great:

For that brisket your using,
Season it liberally with salt, pepper and sweet smoked paprika
5-6 white onions, thickly sliced into rings
1/2 cup dried cherries
2 12oz cans of coca-cola
1/4 cup white vinegar

marinate overnite
slowly braise it until fork tender, with all this stuff
While the meat rests
Reduce all the liquid until it becomes very thick, like a chutney
It's better with a little bit fattier cut of meat, and best on the smoker sans the paprika, but when it is too damn cold out to fire up the smoker ( or you live in the city, and the condo association is going to fine you $150 bucks if you use your smoker again) this works great.

PS two words, crock pot.
Patrick Sheerin

#72 sabg

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 07:53 AM

i was watching a few bbq cook offs this weekend. i have a 8 lb brisket int the frdige i want to smoke. the champs say its takes about 12-14 hrs, i didn't catch their size. do you think it could be done in less time? i thought i had previously heard 5-6 hours

#73 nessa

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 08:21 AM

In general, I've heard an hour per pound. Last week I smoked a 9-10 lb brisket for about 7 hours. It was certainly *done* but not fork tender, and to me, brisket should melt in your mouth and fall apart when gently teased. So I put it in the oven at 350 for another 3 hours, and it was just perfect. So, it did turn out to be about an hour per pound.

#74 fiftydollars

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 09:31 AM

Brisket takes about 1 to 1.5 hours per pound at 225 degrees. My target internal temperature is about 185 degrees. You can cook it faster, but you probably won’t like the results. You may also want to take a look at how fatty your brisket is to determine if you might want to wrap it during cooking. If you bought a brisket from which most of the fat has been trimmed off you may want to only smoke it for 5 hours. Then you might want to wrap it in aluminum foil and finish it in the oven until it reaches the right internal temperature. You can also wrap it and finish it in the smoker, but I wouldn’t spend the extra effort to keep the smoker going. I generally don’t wrap briskets that have a pretty good amount of fat on them, but with leaner briskets I prefer to wrap them to keep them from drying out. In any case I wouldn’t cook them too fast or too hot. Just a steady low, moist heat for a long, long time. Otherwise it will be too tough to be enjoyable.

#75 dls

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 09:53 AM

I'm pretty much in the same camp as fiftydollars. 1-1.5 hrs per lb. @ 225F. I go for an internal of 190F then remove from smoker, double wrap in foil, then wrap in an old large bath towel and put into a cooler for at least 1 hr (pour boiling water into cooler, close for 10 minutes then, drain, dry, and insert wrapped brisket).

#76 sabg

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 12:14 PM

I'm pretty much in the same camp as fiftydollars. 1-1.5 hrs per lb. @ 225F. I go for an internal of 190F then remove from smoker, double wrap in foil, then wrap in an old large bath towel and put into a cooler for at least 1 hr (pour boiling water into cooler, close for 10 minutes then, drain, dry, and insert wrapped brisket).

is the wrapping and settling part where the collagen does something that makes it so tender?

#77 fifi

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 12:30 PM

The collagen breakdown starts at about 170F. That is why you get that internal temperature "stall" as it breaks down. When the temperature starts to rise again, that is when you are getting there. I tend to just leave it on the smoker at 225F at the grate since I have a WSM and maintaining the temerature at 225F is a no brainer. Why crank up the oven? If you are having trouble with the smoker, the oven is a viable alternative but, when I have done that, I set the oven at the same 225 to maintain the rate of breakdown so that it is more even. Yes, wrap in foil if you are moving to the oven. I often separate a whole brisket into two parts since the flat will cook at a faster rate. I will have no truck with a trimmed brisket. Fat is your friend.

You have to pay in terms of time for great brisket. The BBQ gods are NOT forgiving. :laugh:
Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

#78 dls

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 04:15 PM

I'm pretty much in the same camp as fiftydollars. 1-1.5 hrs per lb. @ 225F. I go for an internal of 190F then remove from smoker, double wrap in foil, then wrap in an old large bath towel and put into a cooler for at least 1 hr (pour boiling water into cooler, close for 10 minutes then, drain, dry, and insert wrapped brisket).

is the wrapping and settling part where the collagen does something that makes it so tender?

As fifi said upthread, the collagen breakdown starts at around 170F. Then the stall begins and, it ain't over til' it's over. Could easily be 1 or 2 hrs, if not more. This, among other reasons, is why I like to use 1.5 hrs per lb. as a timeline for smoking a brisket (or butt, etc.)

The wrapping and setting part is just a way of holding the meat and allowing the internal juices to redistribute throughout the entire piece. The end result is much more tender and juicy. It also gives you a lot more flexibility in timing, especially if your're entertaining. I've actually held them like this up to 4 hrs without much of a drop in internal temp. Not my idea at all. Picked it up from a long time champ on the BBQ circuit a number of years ago.

#79 chefrodrigo

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 05:32 PM

I agree with all the above advice. I'd just like to throw in that John Fullilove of Smitty's in Lockhart told us that he cooked his brisket in about 4.5 hours and he keeps the temperature high. He didn't define high but I've heard their pits run around 500F.
Its contrary to everything I've heard about cooking brisket but that was the finest meat we had on our 2 week trip of eating bbq everyday.
I also think they only use the fat end of the brisket. If I remember right there is not a choice of lean at Smitty's.

Rodney

#80 fifi

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 05:53 PM

I agree with all the above advice. I'd just like to throw in that John Fullilove of Smitty's in Lockhart told us that he cooked his brisket in about 4.5 hours and he keeps the temperature high. He didn't define high but I've heard their pits run around 500F.
Its contrary to everything I've heard about cooking brisket but that was the finest meat we had on our 2 week trip of eating bbq everyday.
I also think they only use the fat end of the brisket. If I remember right there is not a choice of lean at Smitty's.

Rodney

Boy, does that sound suspicious. :hmmm:

Those boys may have been foolin' you. I am not sure how the typical "pit" could even get to 500. :laugh:
Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

#81 chefrodrigo

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 06:43 PM

Boy, does that sound suspicious. :hmmm:

Those boys may have been foolin' you. I am not sure how the typical "pit" could even get to 500. :laugh:

Have you seen there pit? I don't think I would describe it as typical. If I remember right in Robb W's book he said their pits run closer to 600F. I'll have to look that up again.
We can get our offset up to 400F pretty easy, not that we try to, and Smitty's fire is a lot bigger than ours.

Rodney

#82 chefrodrigo

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Posted 07 June 2004 - 06:49 PM

I found Robbs quote. pg 28 "Some of the best smoked meat in the Lone Star state is cooked at 600F". He doesn't mention Smitty's or Kreuz but I believe that is whom he is referring to.

Rodney

#83 col klink

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 10:58 AM

I haven't been to Smitty's but I have been to Kreuz's and I can easily see the pit hitting 500 or 600 F is you're close to the fire. I've never run my smoker that hot (I can come close to 400) because I'd risk charring the brisket.

If you don't have a lot of fat, you'll want to wrap it in foil at some point. I talk at length about brisket (and turkey) in my Smoking Course.

#84 fifi

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Posted 08 June 2004 - 11:28 AM

Now I am curious. Why would anyone want to do that to a brisket? Just to save time? What would that do for beer consumption? Oh... The horror!

Now I am getting curious as to the interior temperature profile and how that works for collagen => gelatin conversion.

I am a very curious person. :biggrin:
Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

#85 snowangel

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Posted 10 June 2004 - 02:43 PM

Whole, untrimmed briskets are on sale at my local meat market for $1.99/lb. Guess what I'm smoking this weekend?

And, it's time this thread returned up top again.

Smoked brisket. Yum.
Susan Fahning aka "snowangel"

#86 fifi

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Posted 10 June 2004 - 02:54 PM

Kroger in Houston has whole cryovac'd brisket for 99 cents a pound.

Gentlemen... Start your smokers. (Yea, yea, gentlewomen too.)

In the WSM I split the brisket into the tip and the flat like klink said above. Trimming is an abomination. :biggrin:
Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

#87 snowangel

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Posted 10 June 2004 - 04:14 PM

$.99/lb! Yes, gentlewomen, start your smokers.

Yes, trimming is an abomination and a waste of time and perfectly good fat. It also takes away from beer-drinking time. All of that washing hands. Yes, I will cut into two pieces.

What kinda wood would be best?
Susan Fahning aka "snowangel"

#88 fifi

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Posted 10 June 2004 - 04:51 PM

Um... Wood... I'm thinking...

I usually use hickory or mesquite but I think I would like to find some pecan. I haven't used pecan in years and would like to test it out. I have some big slabs of redfish and trout in my sister's freezer from last weekend's fishing trip and am thinking about smoking a couple or more of those so I want to see how I like the pecan. (I will do the fish later. 99 cent brisket is too good to pass up.) Now all I have to do is find the time to do this this weekend.
Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

#89 snowangel

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Posted 10 June 2004 - 06:07 PM

Plus, you can save all of that energy thawing stuff, fifi.

What sides will you serve?

I'd just as soon just eat brisket, but think that the rest of the people will think I'm lazy if I don't serve sides.
Susan Fahning aka "snowangel"

#90 mnebergall

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Posted 11 June 2004 - 05:52 AM

My plan is to do both a brisket and a butt at the same time. Which should I put on the top rack, the beef or the butt?





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