251 replies to this topic

[tan319]

Don't want to seem contrary but the egg thing is kind of 'a wing and a prayer' to me.
I've tried it when I've broken my hydrometers.
Seemed a bit shaky....
If you are working in a restaurant (even if you're not), just spring for the meter and stop guessing.
I would say at this point that getting your baume correct is more important then the stabilizer.
Also, if you can just get a straight grapefruit juice with no sweetener, that should work ok for you.

[JSkilling]

Ted,

When you say you make up a base is that with a mix of some kind? And then you just add your fruit purees to get to the correct sugar solution?

[*Deborah*]

Neil, do you know the bartender at Parkside? (I can't remember his name, I'm terrible with that) I do know he has a very nice pink grapefruit sorbet and he might care to share some of his secrets.

[Abra]

Me too on adding the vodka. I usually use 1 tablespoon per quart of sorbet. Maybe it's different for a commercial batch - is there a need to avoid alcohol? Because that really does work.

[tan319]

Josette...
Yes, it's a sorbet "base" syrup.
YMBB posted one
It would usually involve:
Water( many recipes would cite mineral but..)
Sugar
Atomised (powdered) glucose
Dextrose(sometimes)
Stabilizer
Fruit juices, purees, etc.

As I posted earlier, Cremodan sorbet stabilizer has a chart of weights and amounts for different fruits.
You have to make the mix.
Re: Vodka as 'antifreeze'.
I don't know if you folks posting about this work in restaurants or bars or are just speaking about home remedys.
It would seem to me, much like the egg thing, to be something to do on the fly, a temporary solution.
If you're making a gallon or more at a time, you can't mess around too much (IMO).
I wouldn't be surprised if more bartenders or 'mixologists' turned out to be using Pacojets.
And if they are, hardness might no be too much of an issue, no?
Get it right in the first place, the balance in your sorbet mix, the straight version or the more involved one, and all of that stuff won't be necessary

[Shalmanese]

I doubt this would work in a restaurant setting but at home, I tend to slightly over sugar my sorbets and freeze it. Once I check what consistency the sorbet is, I can sort of eyeball how much extra water is needed and just add that and mix well and freeze again. Because it's semi-liquid at the start, you can mix it much more throughly and get a lot of air in and then mix it again before serving to give that ultra-smooth texture.

[chiantiglace]

Damm, i hate getting into these threads while they are soo deep.

I only read like the first 5 and skimmed the rest.

You just need to set your Baume reading for a sorbet mixture.
The scale is 14degrees for sorbet syrup (a baume scale determines the density of a syrup) Which is 16 oz water and 5 oz sugar. So if grapefruit is approximately 80% water then do 19.2 oz grapefruit and 5 oz sugar. It should read 14degrees bauma. Now if theres anything else you want to add to that you just have to make adjustments with it.. I would use a liqueur. Maybe grand marnier, or if you have a grapefruit liqueur at your disposal.

Just spin in ice cream machine and freeze. And if you want to make sure it has a quality texture, i would use a robotcoupe and blend it once after its frozen and re-freeze. You don't need a stabilizer.

[yourmyboyblue]

tan, you are absolutley right about the egg thing. its a quick fix and just to get you in the ballpark and it better than saying "oh it looks close". the only way to be sure is a baume reading. so whats the baume supposed to be???? i think you said in a earlier post that its supposed to be 20*??? i thought 14*-18*.


chiantiglace- what do you mean by putting the sorbet in the robotcoup? is this after you spin it or the next day. im confused

[tan319]

YMBB.
I've always gone for 18/20 degrees baume for the creaminess/fluffyness I get when I spin it.
I've never gone for below or above.
When I use sorbet syrups I usually don't take a reading as I am often following a recipe.
If I am R & D'ing a new thing I will take a reading though.
The sorbets I make don't require any additional processing ( robocouping,etc.) and I rarely stabilize them, although sometimes, if you have them around for awhile, they will get wacko/crystal on you.
My firm belief, again, get the balance right and you won't really need it.

Edited by tan319, 02 February 2005 - 08:48 PM.

[JSkilling]

Ted,

Thanks. I thought you meant that you had some master base that you mixed up and then just added your fruit purees as you went along. I haven't been able to such a thing since each puree has different amounts of sugar.

I think I like around 16- 18 Baume best but ended up with a 25 raspberry sorbet this weekend. Sucker will never, ever freeze solid! I was experimenting with some polydextrose and it took my base that measures out at 16 to 25 with 4T added. Next experiment....

I do like to use a stabilizer with this and have used xanthan gum in the past and also have some commercial stabilizer that has locust bean gum and something that I can't remember offhand - might be carageenen...

I don't use any additional atomized glucose or sugar product since I'm trying to keep the glycemic value down. I also have to deal with the added sweetness of fructose in my mix so I have to compensate for the fact that it's 1.8 times sweeter than sucrose, especially at frozen temps. I feel like Alton Brown half the time...

[tan319]

Could you have added water to your 25 degree base and brought it back to 18?
Also, that "master" base was mixed up out of the components mentioned and you could play with it the same, I believe.
Just use a refractometer or hydrometer to measure the sugar/density.

The stabilizer I've used most are the Cremodan ones, followed by the patisfrance/Pastry1 brand.

[chiantiglace]

14degrees is the preferred degree, 18-20 is like baba syrup and candied citrus peel. Simple sryup gets as high as 30 degrees. You can easily start with simple sryup and add a fruit juice to bring it down. Obviosly the denser the sugar to water ratio is the less likely it is to freeze up. With a very low density citrus juice you could easily use a higher baume reading to ensure a more stable sorbet, it isn't going to hurt it, just taste/sweetness. I do use tan's egg drop in mine too, I've always liked that stabilizer if it comes to that.

Sometimes if you don't have a high quality ice cream machine and you aren't the best handler of the one you have the parts of the sorbet can freeze up harder that the others by clinging to the walls. Sometimes on a citrus sorbet that isso light in texture I like to process the finished product in a robotcoupe to smooth out the ice crystals, have found that to make it slightly better quality.

[scott123]

If you're happy with the level of sweetness that it's at, go with polydextrose or inulin. Both of these are freezing point depressors that add sugary consistency but very little sweetness (10% the sweetness of sugar).

[chefcyn]

...Just spin in ice cream machine and freeze.  And if you want to make sure it has a quality texture, i would use a robotcoupe and blend it once after its frozen and re-freeze.  You don't need a stabilizer.

I had a pint of Peach sorbet and one of my bosses scooped some out and put it back in the refrigerator instead of the freezer. Needless to say I found it the next day, melted, separated and yucky, so I stuck it back into the freezer, then took it out frozen and chopped it up into the food processor, pulsed it smooth and refroze it. It was fine and smooth and creamy, like new.
I've done the re-processing thing after a week in the freezer with other home-made sorbets with great success, though it seldom lasts that long! I make them out of fresh squeezed blood oranges, or frozen berries, thawed, pureed, strained, or whatever other fresh juice I have on hand, and add an equal volume of simple syrup made of equal cups of water and sugar, heated to dissolve and then chilled (I keep a 2 qt jar of it in the fridge). I use a little more sugar for very sour juices like lemon or grapefruit, to taste. No hygrometer, no egg-in-syrup-test. But, I do make it in small 2 qt batches which go fast. I can see the need for more precision if you need to be in real production.

[silverbrow]

I want to make my first sorbet (grapefruit and vodka) but have a question on how long it keeps at optimum flavour for. I'm looking to serve it on Friday night and ideally would like to make it on Monday or Tuesday.

However several recipes I've looked at imply that it should be made and served on the same day. Is this right or can I make it and store it in the freezer?

[Busboy]

The pros on this board have a number of techniques for storing ice cream and sorbets for many days, often relying on added stabilizers.

My experience is that if you make a sorbet more than a day in advance, it will be an ill-flavored ice-block by the time you eat it. The dropoff in tastes is undeniable after 48 hours; and it is difficult to maintain a decent texture, period. Fresh sorbet takes almost no attention and offers explosive flavors that can't be duplicated or preserved. Make it the same day, or get some Ben and Jerry's.

[chefcyn]

I want to make my first sorbet (grapefruit and vodka) but have a question on how long it keeps at optimum flavour for.  I'm looking to serve it on Friday night and ideally would like to make it on Monday or Tuesday.

However several recipes I've looked at imply that it should be made and served on the same day.  Is this right or can I make it and store it in the freezer?

I've made and stored fresh fruit juice sorbet for up to a week with no ill effects. I think it depends on whether you make it in an ice cream machine or not as far as the texture, and the proportion of sugar to juice/alcholol will all have an effect. Mine were pure juices and simple syrup cranked in an old fashioned electric ice cream maker (the kind with rock salt and ice around the steel tube). I made Blood Orange, Raspberry, Mixed Berry, and chocolate. All stayed creamy and scoopable for at least a week, the chocolate one separated after about 10 days, but I put it into the food processor and whipped it back into shape and it was fine. I also had no loss of sharpness or strength of flavor. My freezer was brand new, with a special computerized quick freeze operation that lowered the temp after each time you open the door. Maybe that helped, maybe not.

Good luck.

[Shalmanese]

The pros on this board have a number of techniques for storing ice cream and sorbets for many days, often relying on added stabilizers.

My experience is that if you make a sorbet more than a day in advance, it will be an ill-flavored ice-block by the time you eat it.  The dropoff in tastes is undeniable after 48 hours; and it is difficult to maintain a decent texture, period.  Fresh sorbet takes almost no attention and offers explosive flavors that can't be duplicated or preserved.  Make it the same day, or get some Ben and Jerry's.

All of my sorbets have been sugar, water & fruit juice. Not ingredients known for their fast decay times. Sorbet's I've made have maintained their taste for many weeks. The texture suffers but all you need to do is to give it another whirl in the blender to soften it up again.

[Wendy DeBord]

all you need to do is to give it another whirl in the blender to soften it up again.

I make sorbets with-out a ice cream maker. You can definately make them earilier in the week. If they begin to get hard or soft or wierd (whatever way) put them in the blender as suggested and they turn out great.

[Busboy]

The pros on this board have a number of techniques for storing ice cream and sorbets for many days, often relying on added stabilizers.

My experience is that if you make a sorbet more than a day in advance, it will be an ill-flavored ice-block by the time you eat it.  The dropoff in tastes is undeniable after 48 hours; and it is difficult to maintain a decent texture, period.  Fresh sorbet takes almost no attention and offers explosive flavors that can't be duplicated or preserved.  Make it the same day, or get some Ben and Jerry's.

All of my sorbets have been sugar, water & fruit juice. Not ingredients known for their fast decay times. Sorbet's I've made have maintained their taste for many weeks. The texture suffers but all you need to do is to give it another whirl in the blender to soften it up again.

I'll have to try the blender trick. Regarding the flavor, though, I'd say there's a not insignificant decline in fruit juice flavor after a day or two. The stuff is still quite good, but never as good as when it's served a couple of hours after freezing. (The drop-off for ice cream is even more severe).

Which is better OJ: "fresh squeezed" or "not from concentrate?"

[Eden]

the other trick besides the blender, if it gets to hard, is to just let it melt completely and then refreeze it.

[chefcyn]

Which is better OJ: "fresh squeezed" or "not from concentrate?"

That's a good question, because if you squeeze your own, the quality of the oranges has a definite bearing on the taste, as well as how long you keep it before you use or drink it. Oxidation happens to us all ;)
Commercial juices, even "not from concentrate" have almost invariably been made from a blend of juices from oranges that come from different places and harvest times. If you squeeze a case of oranges from one grove, it will taste different from that from another grove.

Ever see a truckload of oranges driving down Florida highways? What are the ones on the bottom like after a few hours on the road, or the ones on the top after a few hours in the sun?

Do they also process the commercial juices in some way, like pasturizing or something?
That may affect taste, too.

[David Lebovitz]

A few tricks for keeping sorbets from getting too hard...

-Add alcohol to your mixture: since alcohol doesn't freeze, adding a tablespoon of vodka, Grand Marnier, or champagne helps keeps it from getting too hard.

-Substitute corn syrup (or glucose, or honey) for some of the sugar. These are slightly sweeter than sugar, but in general, it's okay to substitute them 1 for 1 in sorbets, in my experience.

-Soften about 1 teaspoon of powdered or a leaf of sheet gelatin in some of the citrus juice, warm it, then add it to the sorbet mixture before freezing. This renders your dessert un-vegan and un-Kosher, however.


David Lebovitz

[silverbrow]

thanks for those responses. I think on the basis of replies the best thing to do is make it as close to serving time as possible, but if this is 24 or 36 hrs before, it's not the end of the world. I will use the various tricks mentioned above if necessary.

[tan319]

Three pastry chefs who know what the Paco can do and what it can't are Sebastien Rouxel (of Per Se), Michael Laiskonis and Chris Broberg.  If you're in NY you might ask to do a "Paco" stage with them, I wouldn't be surprised if they've each had to develop savory paco things for their chefs as well. There are a few books, a few other pastry chefs in the US who've really embraced the Paco and are doing some creative things with it, but it's not reached critical mass yet.

Hey there!
I somehow just came back to this thread, enjoying all of the Pacojet talk and was wondering, specifically from you, Steve, if you could share the titles of the books you mention above, as I've become a bit of a fan of Mssr. 'Paco'!
thanks to all

Edited by tan319, 10 April 2005 - 08:05 PM.

[nathanm]

More PacoJet knowledge in detail would be good. It definitely requires some different techniques than standard equipment.

I have progressed a bit on the savory ice cream front. I have collected a number of recipes from various sources. Some of the things that people use to get texture in a savory ice cream are:

- Olive oil
- Gelatin
- Sugar, but in a reduced amount
- Glucose, in a reduced amount
- Salt - even a small amount of salt depresses the freezing point.

One intriguing ingredient that I have experimented with is polydextrose, a sugar based polymer which the body digests as fiber. It is useful in low-carb ice cream. It has very low sweetness. However, since the molecule size is fairly large it does not depress freezing point, and thus is not a complete solution by itself. Small molecules depress the freezing point better than large ones, which is why salt works well.

That said, I don't have the perfect solution yet. My experiments in sazory ice cream to date are more "interesting" than good. But that is what experimenting is all about...

[jackal10]

Hal McGee, in "The Curious Cook" has a chapter on ices.
He gives detailed tables for suger/acid to give the desired consistency
For example Medium ssweet, but smooth sorbet for Avocado or Tomato

1 1/2 cups puree, 7 Tbs sugar 2 Tbs lemon juice

He discusses a Pineapple avocado sorbet: 1 cup 2 Tbs pineapple, 6 Tb avocado, 9 Tb sugar, 2 Tb lemon juice. You may still need a thickener to give mouth texture.

He points out that ethyl alcohol is about an eighth the molecular weight of sucrose, so it is about four times more effective than sugar at depressing the freezing point. Since wine is about 10% alcohol, roughly 2 Tbs (or 2 tsp liquer) replace 1 Tbs sugar.

[Ekaterina]

Hello everyone! I am a pastry sous-chef, currently based in Paris, France while my husband completes his MBA at an international business school in Fontainebleau.

There are two of us making plated desserts and petit fours for a modern, very upscale bistro Chez Catherine. My chef has a fantastic resume, having worked previously in the kitchens of Plaza Athinee for Alain Ducasse, and most recently George V for Philippe Legendre. While it is increadibly interesting working with my French colleague, it is also sometimes quite frustrating - those cultural differences are immense!

Recently, we put a caramelized banana sable tart on the menu, topped with coconut sorbet. (I don't have a picture with me, but can post it later.) My chef used coconut milk to make his version of the sorbet. The flavor is very synthetic, due to the large quantity of canned milk, and the sorbet coats the mouth with little globules of condensed fattiness. (I honestly don't know how to describe it any nicer, but maybe you know what I am talking about. ) However, this version makes nice little scoops and quenelles to top the tart.

I tried to use milk, infused with shredded coconut, sugar and a little lime juice to make my version. The flavor is nice - very fresh and coconutty, but the texture of the sorbet itself is very runny. It does not freeze solid and is very hard to quenelle. It has a texture of soft ice-cream, like Mr. Softie.

This is the recipe I used:

480 ml. milk
80 g. dessicated coconut
110 g. sugar
a little lime juice

Perhaps someone can help me out and explain how I can possibly get a satisfactory result. I've tried adding more sugar to my recipe, but that acheived nothing, besides making the finished sorbet too sweet for my taste.

Looking forward to reading your comments and advice. Thanks so much!

[rooftop1000]

I dont know if this would be banana overload on top of the tart or a great continuation of theme but I have this link....a banana cocnut icecream....essentially just adding bananas to your recipe


http://www.justfruit...ru-0070309.html

tracey

[nicolekaplan]

use boiron puree and use their recipe, they have tons of info on how to make exemplary sorbets