Salt and vinegar levels in fermentation/a little poison is ok

eugenep · June 12, 2023

I saw in this interview by Fox news years ago where they interviewed this small immigrant family business in San Franscisco.

They asked this immigrant herbalist and demanded answers for why this chop shop was selling medicines with MSG like characteristics that were harmful to people.

She answered that this was helpful to people and that humans can actually take a little bit of poison and be ok.

I always thought about this weird statement but the FDA itself permits poison and all sorts of harmful substances in our air, water, meat and so on as long as they fall under a certain percentage.

So poison is actually ok as long as the amount is minimal.

I don't know the exact MINIMUM ratio of salt needed to block pathogenic bacteria during fermentation. Do you? (this would be helpful)

I tried to follow the famous Noma guide but the salt content is so crazy high in the book that there's no way the NOma restaurant is using it or else it would taste like sh--

I found this recipe for fermented hot sauce where you dice chilis and add salt. It was too high so I added like a teaspoon to the attached post and submerged under water. It's like I don't know if it's enough salt but I'm going to wait for the ferment and just use the taste and smell taste and follow the principle that a little poison is okay (even if the salt might not be high enough).

I'm going to finish with lots of vinegar after the ferment so I think it will be ok. Does what I'm doing sound like a rational (maybe not the bestest) idea? I think it's the best given the above - i.e., that high salt ratios will make it taste like crap. small salt levels risk danger but a little poison is ok (and safe).

heidih · June 12, 2023

As you noted "poison" is not a standardized term around the globe. Even in the US where I live there are notations on some things about possible toxicity - how much of that is protection against legal action? Many foods one could eat are possibly toxic in certain quantities. Societies where a food has historicaly been eaten a certain way - I lean to that experience. Apricot kernels anyone? What foods are you interested in? Quantity ingested v. body mass is certainy a factor. As to fermentation - well us non scoence humans have been fermenting/preserving for ages . My dad in his poor household in Croatia had the salt pork and the fermented cabbage all winter - made per the verbal passed down formulas. He is coming up on 101. and still a vocal PITA

Edited June 12, 2023 by heidih (log)

pastrygirl · June 12, 2023

The dose makes the poison - drinking too much water can kill you.

What 'poisons' are you flirting with with here ...mold? Botulism? Pink salt?

Bernie · June 12, 2023

In the article decribes

22 minutes ago, eugenep said:

why this chop shop was selling medicines with MSG like characteristics that were harmful to people

Here is a rather interesting article on MSG https://news.colgate.edu/magazine/2019/02/06/the-strange-case-of-dr-ho-man-kwok/

28 minutes ago, eugenep said:

She answered that this was helpful to people and that humans can actually take a little bit of poison and be ok.

I always thought about this weird statement but the FDA itself permits poison and all sorts of harmful substances in our air, water, meat and so on as long as they fall under a certain percentage.

So poison is actually ok as long as the amount is minimal.

This is also the basis of homeopathy If you wish to believe this go for it.

There are many food and health myths that are just that myths.

Another good one is "antioxidants" . This was research done in the 1950 -1960 and has a sort of basis in fact. Antioxidants are needed to mop up free radicals around the body. But follow research in the 1970s found your body produces its own levels of antioxidants and maintains that level fairly well until you consume extra antioxidants which cause the body to reduce the level it produces to even out the bodies requirements. This reduced level persist for some weeks after your stop with the high intakes of antioxidants.

At best the "extra antioxidants aren't necessary and at worst they may in fact leave your body short until it stabilizes its own levels when you aren't taking the extra antioxidants. If I food claims to have extra or high antioxidants, I avoid them as marketing at best and misinformation at worst.

As to the notion that a little poison wont hurt are a bit hit and miss at best, and pretty dangerous course of action at worst. Can you be sure of the what level of a little bit of poison is?

Alas, just like cigarettes or alcohol we indulge despite the dangers because we want to.

Alex · June 12, 2023

1 hour ago, Bernie said:

This was research done in the 1950 -1960 and has a sort of basis in fact. Antioxidants are needed to mop up free radicals around the body. But follow research in the 1970s found your body produces its own levels of antioxidants and maintains that level fairly well until you consume extra antioxidants which cause the body to reduce the level it produces to even out the bodies requirements. This reduced level persist for some weeks after your stop with the high intakes of antioxidants.

At best the "extra antioxidants aren't necessary and at worst they may in fact leave your body short until it stabilizes its own levels when you aren't taking the extra antioxidants. If I food claims to have extra or high antioxidants, I avoid them as marketing at best and misinformation at worst.

This is interesting. Bernie, do you have a reference or two for that?

JoNorvelleWalker · June 12, 2023

2 hours ago, heidih said:

As you noted "poison" is not a standardized term around the globe. Even in the US where I live there are notations on some things about possible toxicity - how much of that is protection against legal action? Many foods one could eat are possibly toxic in certain quantities. Societies where a food has historicaly been eaten a certain way - I lean to that experience. Apricot kernels anyone? What foods are you interested in? Quantity ingested v. body mass is certainy a factor. As to fermentation - well us non scoence humans have been fermenting/preserving for ages . My dad in his poor household in Croatia had the salt pork and the fermented cabbage all winter - made per the verbal passed down formulas. He is coming up on 101. and still a vocal PITA

I'm enjoying some apricot kernels as we speak. Probably not the worst thing in my diet. But bear in mind some poisons kill in exceedingly small doses.

Duvel · June 12, 2023

5 hours ago, eugenep said:

I saw in this interview by Fox news years ago where they interviewed this small immigrant family business in San Franscisco.

They asked this immigrant herbalist and demanded answers for why this chop shop was selling medicines with MSG like characteristics that were harmful to people.

She answered that this was helpful to people and that humans can actually take a little bit of poison and be ok.

I always thought about this weird statement but the FDA itself permits poison and all sorts of harmful substances in our air, water, meat and so on as long as they fall under a certain percentage.

So poison is actually ok as long as the amount is minimal.

I don't know the exact MINIMUM ratio of salt needed to block pathogenic bacteria during fermentation. Do you? (this would be helpful)

I tried to follow the famous Noma guide but the salt content is so crazy high in the book that there's no way the NOma restaurant is using it or else it would taste like sh--

I found this recipe for fermented hot sauce where you dice chilis and add salt. It was too high so I added like a teaspoon to the attached post and submerged under water. It's like I don't know if it's enough salt but I'm going to wait for the ferment and just use the taste and smell taste and follow the principle that a little poison is okay (even if the salt might not be high enough).

I'm going to finish with lots of vinegar after the ferment so I think it will be ok. Does what I'm doing sound like a rational (maybe not the bestest) idea? I think it's the best given the above - i.e., that high salt ratios will make it taste like crap. small salt levels risk danger but a little poison is ok (and safe).

TL;DR:

You are venturing into fermentation. You are concerned about salt being "poisoneous" if used in excess amounts, so you use a little and justifiy this by citing some TV documentary you saw, probably unrelated to fermentation. You discard two recipe sources (NOMA's guide to fermentation, some recipe for making fermented hot sauce), because their salt content will produce an inedible result (even though you haven't tried it, and you have zero reference to any own sucessful fermentations). Instead you are eyeballing it, and hope for the best. So, please go ahead and support Darwin's "survival of the fittest" (or smartest).

Edited June 12, 2023 by Duvel (log)

liuzhou · June 12, 2023

When you start taking your health advice from Fox News...

Good luck.

gfweb · June 12, 2023

So much to comment on. I'll restrain myself.

FDA approves medicines that at the wrong dose might be harmful. That's not approving a poison.

MSG is not dangerous. Ever eat a bag of Doritos? That's a shitload of glutamate. Nobody has died.

Medical writers and reporters are among the most uninformed, stop listening to them. They'll say anything for a click.

Elkyfr · June 12, 2023

Ammonia is used in the cookies, but they say it evaporates when baked, so they say. In the end, governments allow products to leave the factory with pathogens because it is the responsibility of the consumer to follow the cooking instructions.

chromedome · June 12, 2023

There is a saying that "the dosage makes the poison;" meaning that some things can be ingested safely, or even have beneficial results, in a given quantity. That last phrase is key: "...in a given quantity." As Pastrygirl said upthread, an excess of perfectly good potable water can kill you (this is not a hypothetical, it's happened). Most of the world's medicines, herbs, etc are toxic at levels in excess of their recommended dosage, even familiar ones like Tylenol (and in fact, Canada recently lowered its maximum allowable dosage for Tylenol).

In the case of botulinum toxin - which is what you're dicing with in this particular instance - a lethal dose for humans is considered to be in the range of 2 billionths of a gram per kilo of body weight. It's considered to be the most potent toxin yet identified by science. It is, to be blunt, not something to fuck around with.

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/there-s-toxicity-and-there-s-toxicity

Tropicalsenior · June 12, 2023

14 hours ago, eugenep said:

Does what I'm doing sound like a rational (maybe not the bestest) idea?

No, not just no but hell no! Reading through this whole thread I feel like I've been dropped in a whole different dimension. That anyone in this day and age is so ignorant of the dangers of botulism or anything else that might be growing in that ghastly experiment is absolutely incredible to me. My only hope is that you are the only person that has to ingest this mess. If you feed it to anyone else I'm sure the charge would at least be manslaughter.

heidih · June 12, 2023

This all reminds me of the theory about the Salem witch trials https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1037.htm#:~:text=In 1976 Linnda Caporael offered,followed by a wet spring.

eugenep · June 12, 2023

Hey. I don't know the chance and probability of botulism but I think it's supposed to be very rare.

Is this risk especially high in fermentation?

I was planning to just sniff and look at it to gauge for safety and taste a little (bc a little poison is ok)

Like...are there special risks in fermentation and are there indicators I should look out for (that is poison)? I was just going to look for gross pathogenic looking mold etc. at the main indicator.

But yeah - bottoms up bro. lol

Edited June 12, 2023 by eugenep (log)

gfweb · June 13, 2023

You are messing with us aren't you.

Anna N · June 13, 2023

1 hour ago, gfweb said:

You are messing with us aren't you.

At least we hope this is so.

Duvel · June 13, 2023

7 hours ago, gfweb said:

You are messing with us aren't you.

Either that or he is just messing with his health. In either case, he/she/them is messing 🙄

In the meantime one might consider having a look at this: Safety of Fermented Fruits and Vegetables - ScienceDirect

**Mjx** · June 13, 2023

https://www.cdc.gov/botulism/prevention.html

https://fermentationassociation.org/the-safety-of-fermented-food/

https://www.wildfermentationforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3654

If you follow sterilization and pH guidelines carefully, you should be fine, but this is definitely not something to be casual about, as food poisining is unpleasant, even if you recover from it.

ETA, C. botulinum and its toxin cannot be seen, smelled, or tasted.

haresfur · June 13, 2023

My understanding is the salt is a necessary part of lactobacillus fermentation, not just to block pathogens. you don't want salt, don't do anaerobic fermentation. I don't think anyone can give you the minimum amount because there are so many variables in how the fermentation occurs and what nasties might be introduced before sealing in the fermentation vessel. If someone uses a very low amount of salt and lives, that doesn't mean you will.

The standard is 2-3% salt by weight - but look it up - don't trust me. There are lots of resources on line. That isn't terribly much and my sauerkraut tastes fine to me. You can always rinse it off before eating. There are also resources for how to recognise relatively benign stuff like kahm yeast from mold. My advice is to try following a recipe before mucking with it.

Hope this helps.

Duvel · June 13, 2023

48 minutes ago, haresfur said:

Hope this helps.

Normally, I’d say it would. But he/she/them is discarding already the NOMA recipe for lactofermented food as “too salty”. As these - just as your - recipes are the result of a complete & successful fermentation, and the amount of water released during said fermentation is factored into the salt employed, it is not smart to judge it before fermentation has been concluded (and needless to say the development of acid and related flavor components have been complete).

The irony of our time is that the more knowledge is available, the less (certain) people are open to it.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Duvel (log)

Tropicalsenior · June 13, 2023

4 minutes ago, Duvel said:

But he/she/them is discarding already the NOMA recipe for lactofermented food

He/she/them seems to have rejected all common sense advice. The second reference given by @Mjx States specifically the reason for using adequate salt or other preserving additive. Without an adequate brine the food is not fermenting it is rotting.

eugenep · June 15, 2023

Hey. I looked at the articles referenced in the links. Here is one quote:

"So how often does botulism really occur in fermented foods?...I did not find a single incident of fermented vegetables, sauerkraut,...etc. "

It sounds like the risk of botulism is low or nil (as I suspected).

On 6/13/2023 at 5:16 AM, Mjx said:

If you follow sterilization and pH guidelines carefully, you should be fine, but this is definitely not something to be casual aboutj...

By..sterlization..you mean heat up the food above a certain temperature (e.g., 165F) or add a lot of vinegar after fermentation (which will sterilize it)? I'm hoping the latter works since I think it's too much work to cook it again and likely will be skipped.

I think haresfur is correct about no MINIMUM that's safe. I believe the 2-3% is too salty.

By the way, my fermented jalapenos came out great tasting. Because of the summer heat, the ferment just took 2 days to have that delicious smell and bubbles to start appearing and rising (all indication of some good ferment going on).

I added 1/4 cup vinegar.

The taste was super bright like a salad and it was only mildly spicy (which is surprising since it was seeds and full capsasin and all).

Amazing technique. I think I'm going to do less salt going forward and I recommend it. I think it's safe.

blue_dolphin · June 15, 2023

6 hours ago, eugenep said:

Hey. I looked at the articles referenced in the links. Here is one quote:

"So how often does botulism really occur in fermented foods?...I did not find a single incident of fermented vegetables, sauerkraut,...etc. "

It sounds like the risk of botulism is low or nil (as I suspected).

Further down in that article, you will find:

Quote

Adding salt to a ferment also reduces C. botulinum's ability to grow, and encourages beneficial bacteria to take over.

Perhaps a reason botulism is rare in fermented foods is due to people actually following recipes that reduce its ability to grow...you know... using appropriate amounts of salt!

You are correct that the risks in fermented foods are very low, in part due to high salt and acid levels but they are not nil and the consequences (um, death) are so devastating that many here choose to follow guidelines.

I can't believe I'm devoting keystrokes here but there is absolutely nothing correct in the assumptions below. Nothing.

6 hours ago, eugenep said:

By..sterlization..you mean heat up the food above a certain temperature (e.g., 165F) or add a lot of vinegar after fermentation (which will sterilize it)? I'm hoping the latter works since I think it's too much work to cook it again and likely will be skipped.

Choosing to incubate food stuffs in conditions (anaerobic, low salt, low acid) that allow C. botulinum growth and then cooking or adding acid, isn't a preventative as neither of those treatments will inactivate any botulinum toxin that might have been produced during your merry low-salt fermentation.

But, do carry on!

Edited June 15, 2023 by blue_dolphin
Typo (log)

eugenep · June 16, 2023

3 hours ago, blue_dolphin said:

Further down in that article, you will find:

Perhaps a reason botulism is rare in fermented foods is due to people actually following recipes that reduce its ability to grow...you know... using appropriate amounts of salt!

You are correct that the risks in fermented foods are very low, in part due to high salt and acid levels but they are not nil and the consequences (um, death) are so devastating that many here choose to follow guidelines.

I can't believe I'm devoting keystrokes here but there is absolutely nothing correct in the assumptions below. Nothing.

Choosing to incubate food stuffs in conditions (anaerobic, low salt, low acid) that allow C. botulinum growth and then cooking or adding acid, isn't a preventative as neither of those treatments will inactivate any botulinum toxin that might have been produced during your merry low-salt fermentation.

But, do carry on!

hmmmm..yes you might have a point. Now that I think about it, the fermented foods on the market like miso, soy sauce, oyster sauce, sichuan broad bean chili paste is very salty and I..can't really name a fermented sauce at least that's only lightly salted

But..I think it's just this intuition and judgment about the food in front of me...like this observation and past experience that gives me the confidence to know it's safe

I look at the japlapenos. It smells super good, looks bright, and fresh - hell yes it's safe! (in my mind)

And I balance the risk vs. reward (flavor) and it's worth it to me to ferment food at lower salt levels and the flavor is in-cre-dible!!!

Edited June 16, 2023 by eugenep (log)

**Mjx** · June 16, 2023

16 hours ago, eugenep said:

Hey. I looked at the articles referenced in the links. Here is one quote:

"So how often does botulism really occur in fermented foods?...I did not find a single incident of fermented vegetables, sauerkraut,...etc. "

It sounds like the risk of botulism is low or nil (as I suspected).

By..sterlization..you mean heat up the food above a certain temperature (e.g., 165F) or add a lot of vinegar after fermentation (which will sterilize it)? I'm hoping the latter works since I think it's too much work to cook it again and likely will be skipped.

. . . .

By sterilization, I mean properly and thoroughly sterilizing all the tools and containers that will be used, good hand hygiene, making sure that the recipe/instructions you're using are from a reliable source, and following the instructions to the letter. It's only a bit tedious the first time, when you have to think about it. And never as tedious as botulism.

Not all cases of botulism are diagnosed/reported, as food poisoning is often misdiagnosed by the patient as 'stomach' flu (not a real illness: flu attacks the respiratory system), and why take chances on something very unpleasant, when avoiding it isn't that difficult? You deserve better protection than 'fingers crossed'.

8 hours ago, eugenep said:

. . . .

I look at the japlapenos. It smells super good, looks bright, and fresh - hell yes it's safe! (in my mind)

. . .

Please remember that neither C. botulinum nor its toxin is perceivable by taste, scent, or appearance.

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