Turkey Carcass for soup

[The Questioner]

I was just wondering if it would still be safe to make Turkey Soup from a turkey carcass that is 12 days old.  The carcass is in a stainless steel pot in a commercial fridge.  I sort of forgot about it, as it was in our second fridge.

[Anna N]

2 hours ago, The Questioner said:

I was just wondering if it would still be safe to make Turkey Soup from a turkey carcass that is 12 days old.  The carcass is in a stainless steel pot in a commercial fridge.  I sort of forgot about it, as it was in our second fridge.

 I would say that a 12 day old carcass is about seven days too old for me.  

[Soupcon]

If it passes the sniff and look test... probably ok. I regularly eat chicken up to 12 days after roasting (but then my fridge is very cold) and I am still alive and kicking.

[Nauticus]

I wouldn't, that turkey would be too old to be safe, in my opinion. Especially considering it was stored in a pot and not likely airtight. 

[TicTac]

Take a look at it, so long as it has no mold or scent issues - shouldn't be a problem.

 

What many are forgetting is that you are boiling the hell out of it - as long as it has not gone rancid, you will kill off any little wee nasty's in the pot.

 

 

[Lisa Shock]

3 minutes ago, TicTac said:

Take a look at it, so long as it has no mold or scent issues - shouldn't be a problem.

 

What many are forgetting is that you are boiling the hell out of it - as long as it has not gone rancid, you will kill off any little wee nasty's in the pot.

 

 

 

Wrong! You'll kill people someday with that approach to sanitation.

 

The fridge just slows bacterial growth, it doesn't stop it. And some things, like botulism, thrive at refrigeration temps. -If that pot has liquid in it, botulism could be growing and producing poison at the bottom, since it hasn't been moved and is full of protein. You could have all sorts of things that are odorless and tasteless being cultured in your pot. Not to mention good old decomposition.

 

Boiling it won't get rid of poisons excreted by microscopic organisms, like botulism toxins. Boiling also will NOT kill all the sources of foodborne illness. Assuming that a boil will kill off everything is simply playing russian roulette with the lives of those you'll be serving. I'd fire any employee in a restaurant I owned for making the sort of stock that you suggest. (partly because I'd require everyone to be ServSafe certified)

 

Aside from the issue of toxins, infectious viruses, infectious bacteria, etc. there's also the quality issue. Do you really want to make and serve something which is so far beyond its prime?

[gfweb]

Yeah. The smell test isn't valid. I just took horribly decayed piece of meat from the back of the fridge. Zero odor.  But clearly foul.

 

How long was that carcass at room temp before you chilled it...hours, I'd bet.

 

The issue comes down to how much do you want to risk it.  Use ancient, badly stored meat 20 times, probably no problem. But that 21st time you are sick as a dog or worse.

 

Boiling doesn't kill spores (pressure cooking does) and some toxins are heat stable.

 

So is a (basically free) turkey carcass worth any risk at all?

 

 

 

 

[TicTac]

10 minutes ago, Lisa Shock said:

 

Wrong! You'll kill people someday with that approach to sanitation.

 

The fridge just slows bacterial growth, it doesn't stop it. And some things, like botulism, thrive at refrigeration temps. -If that pot has liquid in it, botulism could be growing and producing poison at the bottom, since it hasn't been moved and is full of protein. You could have all sorts of things that are odorless and tasteless being cultured in your pot. Not to mention good old decomposition.

 

Boiling it won't get rid of poisons excreted by microscopic organisms, like botulism toxins. Boiling also will NOT kill all the sources of foodborne illness. Assuming that a boil will kill off everything is simply playing russian roulette with the lives of those you'll be serving. I'd fire any employee in a restaurant I owned for making the sort of stock that you suggest. (partly because I'd require everyone to be ServSafe certified)

 

Aside from the issue of toxins, infectious viruses, infectious bacteria, etc. there's also the quality issue. Do you really want to make and serve something which is so far beyond its prime?

 

While I appreciate your passion, I do not believe your information is accurate.

 

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1307

 

https://www.fsai.ie/faqs/botulism.html

 

Just to site a few sources.

 

The toxins will be killed by boiling.  If you are super concerned, cook your stock in a pressure cooker on high and the spores will also be neutralized.

 

To think that botulism is some indestructible organism is silly.  Otherwise we would have an epidemic.

 

 

[gfweb]

The whole argument that goes.."I've done this for years with no problem" assumes that your immune system is up to snuff and that a low probability bad event won't ever happen (but they do).

 

Would you want a doc who doesn't wash his hands between patients? No? But the actual risk of transmitting something is actually pretty low so then it must be OK to not wash, right?

 

 

 

 

[gfweb]

2 minutes ago, TicTac said:

 

While I appreciate your passion, I do not believe your information is accurate.

 

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1307

 

https://www.fsai.ie/faqs/botulism.html

 

Just to site a few sources.

 

The toxins will be killed by boiling.  If you are super concerned, cook your stock in a pressure cooker on high and the spores will also be neutralized.

 

To think that botulism is some indestructible organism is silly.  Otherwise we would have an epidemic.

 

 

 

You are right 99 out of 100 times.

 

And really wrong that one time.

 

You are taking a real risk to save the tremendously costly turkey carcass for stock?

 

 

[quiet1]

Seeing as how I just spent 4 days in the hospital wired up because I got a GI thing and my heart rate decided to sit at 120-130 at rest and took the better part of 3 days to return to normal, which was no fun at all, I wouldn't risk it. It's a bummer, but it isn't worth the risk if someone does get sick.

 

(And I will note I have no history of heart problems at all, it was strictly a precaution. That kind of heart rate in someone with existing issues can be very bad news indeed, and it is quite possible to have a heart issue without being aware of it day to day.)

[robirdstx]

When in doubt, throw it out!

[chromedome]

31 minutes ago, TicTac said:

 

While I appreciate your passion, I do not believe your information is accurate.

 

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1307

 

https://www.fsai.ie/faqs/botulism.html

 

Just to site a few sources.

 

The toxins will be killed by boiling.  If you are super concerned, cook your stock in a pressure cooker on high and the spores will also be neutralized.

 

To think that botulism is some indestructible organism is silly.  Otherwise we would have an epidemic.

 

 

Botulism was a poor example here, because C. botulinum is an anaerobic bacterium. 

 

You're more likely to run into a problem with Staph aureus, which is ubiquitous and creates heat-stable enterotoxins. There are a number of pathogens that create toxins, if you want to browse the FDA's Bad Bug Book, and C. perfringens creates heat-resistant spores that can create a new population of pathogens in record time even if you boil the hell out of your soup.

 

Seriously, it's not worth it. 

[Soupcon]

Staph aureus is everywhere... up to 50% of the population carries it on their skin and in their hair and yet they are not ill or hospitalized with a staph aureus infection. The only people that I would be concerned about eating a soup made from this carcass is someone who is immuno-suppressed such as a person with a transplant of some kind (organ, skin, bone marrow, etc) or ill with an illness such as AIDS, a newborn with an immature immune system or a toddler or an elderly person who is frail and not well. No, certainly a restaurant should not be using this carcass but at home you are fully aware of the conditions of handling and storage of the carcass and in control of who will eat the soup made from it.

[liuzhou]

If you have to ask, you shouldn't be using it. Bin it.

[chromedome]

8 hours ago, Soupcon said:

Staph aureus is everywhere... up to 50% of the population carries it on their skin and in their hair and yet they are not ill or hospitalized with a staph aureus infection. The only people that I would be concerned about eating a soup made from this carcass is someone who is immuno-suppressed such as a person with a transplant of some kind (organ, skin, bone marrow, etc) or ill with an illness such as AIDS, a newborn with an immature immune system or a toddler or an elderly person who is frail and not well. No, certainly a restaurant should not be using this carcass but at home you are fully aware of the conditions of handling and storage of the carcass and in control of who will eat the soup made from it.

Illness is more likely to be severe in those cases, but S. aureus can infect healthy individuals as well, and it takes as little as 100 nanograms of its enterotoxin to induce illness. Just because it's ubiquitous doesn't mean it's harmless...our bodies are also full of coliform bacteria, which don't cause illness when left to their own devices but do if they're transmitted to food. In the case of S. aureus I'll quote the CDC*:
 

Quote

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that, in the United States, staphylococcal food poisoning causes approximately 241,188 illnesses, 1,064 hospitalizations, and 6 deaths each year. The true incidence is unknown for a number of reasons...

It's perfectly possible the OP could make that pot of soup and experience no ill effects, but there's an unnecessarily high likelihood of spending a day within 15 feet of the bathroom. Hardly worth it, in my estimation, but everyone makes their own call. 

 

*Cited by the FDA in the corresponding section of the Bad Bug Book.

[dcarch]

Yes, it can be used, if you are sure of the following:

 

1. How healthy you are - I have been to many areas where people's health are used/(adapted?) to eating rotten meats. 

2. How healthy the turkey was - how and where the turkey was raised, killed and how long it has been out before it got to you.

3. How safe is your refrigerator - A surprising number of refrigerators are way above 40F.

4. How far is your nearest hospital.

 

dcarch

 

 

 

[TicTac]

2 minutes ago, dcarch said:

Yes, it can be used, if you are sure of the following:

 

 

4. How far is your nearest hospital.

 

dcarch

 

 

 

 

Or washroom

 

As many have noted, if you have any concern or doubt then throw it out.

 

However; assuming it's been stored properly and there are no signs of degradation - you should be OK - just don't test it on others first if you are worried

[Anna N]

The stores around here are practically giving turkeys away now that the season is over. Go buy another one! Could be a lot cheaper in the long run. 

[Paul Bacino]

I probably wouldn't.. but a pressure cooker would help if u chose

 

http://www.hippressurecooking.com/3-pressure-cooker-nutrition-myths-that-just-wont-go-away-till-now/

Edited January 1, 2017 by Paul Bacino (log)

[Katie Meadow]

Turkey soup is the ultimate in comfort food. This doesn't sound comforting. I'm with Anna, buy another Turkey. Or, easier, buy some turkey parts like wings and necks, roast them for an hour, then dump them in a soup pot and bask in the knowledge that it will be GOOD for you as well as delicious. Unless, of course, you are trying to put yourself in a coma before the inauguration.

[Alex]

WWPHDS (What would your public health department say?). They probably won't be open until the 3rd, but my bet is that they'd say to toss it. Think of it this way: If you discovered a 12-day-old piece of turkey breast in your second fridge, would you feel absolutely fine making a hot turkey sandwich out of it? Also, as a couple of folks here have pointed out, some toxins can survive even pressure cooking. Unless the Queen is coming over for dinner tonight and she's been so looking forward to your turkey soup and you can't get another turkey in time, I'd toss it.

[The Questioner]

Thank everyone for your thoughts.  Decided I have 3 more farm fresh turkeys butchered on the 21st of December in my freezer so I will just wait a month cook another one and be able to enjoy another good meal and make soup the next day.  Don't want to not risk enjoying the other 3 birds because I got sick from the soup of the first turkey.

 

[Anna N]

2 hours ago, The Questioner said:

Thank everyone for your thoughts.  Decided I have 3 more farm fresh turkeys butchered on the 21st of December in my freezer so I will just wait a month cook another one and be able to enjoy another good meal and make soup the next day.  Don't want to not risk enjoying the other 3 birds because I got sick from the soup of the first turkey.

 

Wise move. 

[GlorifiedRice]

In my house cooked meats and cold cuts get binned at most 4 days after cooking, opening.

No exceptions