Test dishes for new restaurants

[robie]

Hi,

 

My brother-in-law (half-Iraqi) says he uses hummus to test the quality of a mediterranean/middle eastern restaurant.  I think that is a bad dish because, as Kenji wrote recently in Serious Eats, there are a lot of variations of hummus and I think my BIL could just be judging on similarity to what he is used to.  FWIW, I once recall Claudine Pepin saying that she has learned to distinguish good food from bad food on the basis on it's technical features, rather than if she likes it (from her father).  I agree with this.  I think I can tell if something is well made, even if it does not appeal to me.

 

Anyway, after that long digression, what do you use as test dishes at a new restaurant to judge whether the chef is good?

[rotuts]

"""   good food from bad food on the basis on it's technical features ""

 

a very interesting question.  I have a general idea of what she means, but not so much a specific one.

 

can you cite the reference ?  Id like to read more.  the Pepins in my estimations  know what they are doing around the kitchen and sur le plate.

 

would it be something like  :  is the sauce too thick ?  has it separated ? are flavors subtle ?   etc

[gfweb]

For Chinese I use Gen Tso.  I know, I know it isn't authentic. But its is a great measure of whether they cook the crap out of a dish and care about what they present.

 

For Italian I use veal saltimboca.  Proper flavor and volume of sauce? Meat nicely done?

 

Breakfast places it is scrambled eggs. Nicely fluffy or a chopped mess of paper-thing eggs?

[Anna N]

1 minute ago, gfweb said:

For Chinese I use Gen Tso.  I know, I know it isn't authentic. But its is a great measure of whether they cook the crap out of a dish and care about what they present.

 

For Italian I use veal saltimboca.  Proper flavor and volume of sauce? Meat nicely done?

 

Breakfast places it is scrambled eggs. Nicely fluffy or a chopped mess of paper-thing eggs?

Exactly. Depends on the restaurant. 

[rotuts]

Correct.  it varies by the type off food

 

Indian ? Naan

 

Chinese    'burgs  : as gf said  Gentao  :  is the sauce gummy ? heat subtle ? chicken ultra crispy ?  very hard to find BTW

     

                Chinatowns :  Salted and spiced Squid  :  Proper Peppers ?  crispy not greasy ?

 

Italian :  Lasagna  :  meaty ? bite to the noodles ?  sauce  subtle ?  Cheese  melted ?  a simple dish, easy to destroy.

 

Deli :  is the sandwich bread really really fresh ?

Edited March 24, 2016 by rotuts (log)

[Deryn]

For any place that purports to be a 'breakfast' place, I usually waste my dining dollars on their 'poached eggs'. I say waste because most of the time they are not edible (generally overdone in my estimation) but at least that saves me future bucks because I won't be back there. If Martha Stewart (or anyone) can pre-prepare poached eggs the night before a brunch and not mess them up, then surely a restaurant can also do so - although I don't think poached eggs are that hard to prepare a la minute either if need be.

 

At any Thai place, my first order is often panang curry. Panang especially can vary so much from restaurant to restaurant and there is a sauce consistency, freshness quality, meat to veg ratio and specific taste (an edge of sweetness but not too sweet) that I prefer. However, I am not sure that serving a panang curry that 'I' like really tests the mettle of 'the chef' in that type of restaurant - it just determines if I will return to try more on the menu another day - when in all likelihood, there will be another 'chef' preparing the meal anyway.

 

As Anna N pointed out, it depends on the type of restaurant and I would add, ones own personal tastes and expectations, etc.. On the other hand, you said 'the chef' so perhaps this thread is only about haute cuisine establishments where they employ only a single chef/exec of great renown?

 

I have different expectations of a hamburger or pizza joint than I may have of Alinea or a similar well known restaurant. My 'standards' (as to the taste of any individual dish) may actually be higher for a run of the mill place that specializes in only one type of dish (i.e. hamburgers) than for a highly touted restaurant where I expect my taste buds and expectations to be challenged - perhaps by a tasting menu. Add to that that ambience, service and general flow/overall flavour profile of a meal, and entertainment value can also affect how I 'feel' about value for money at the end of it all - and whether I am likely to return to a very expensive place - but probably don't have much to do in the case of the 'joint' or even mid-level places.  

 

 

Edited March 24, 2016 by Deryn (log)

[Panaderia Canadiense]

The "test dish" varies widely for me and depends heavily on the kind of restaurant I'm considering, the kind of food I want to eat, whether I know the chef or cook, my expectations, and my price range.

 

In comedores (little hole-in-the-wall eateries that are my preferred place to spend dining dollars), it's Seco de Chivo.  How a cook treats this simple, traditional goat or lamb stew speaks volumes to their talent and their philosophy of spicing.

 

At the Chifa (the Ecuadorian take on New York style Chinese), it's Chaulafan Mixto, simple mixed fried rice.  A dish with wide space for innovation and a thousand ways to go wrong.  At a proper Chinese restaurant, one where the menu is mostly if not entirely in Chinese, it's bao zhi or similar dumplings.

 

In seafood places, it's Camarones Encocados.  Again, a very simple dish (shrimp in coconut curry) that is very easy to do wrong by over-thinking it.  I've had camarones encocados at a shack on the beach, and those are in my top 10 of things I've ever eaten; I've also had them in a fine-dining environment where they rated in my top-10 worst.

 

At a steakhouse, it's in how they handle the concept of a 3/8 finish on a Porterhouse or Cuadril (3/8 is what North Americans would think of as medium rare.)  At a chêz-snooté steakhouse, I'll judge them on the tenderness of the filet mignon.  At a place that offers roast beef, I'll judge them harshly for the absence of horseradish.

 

At fine dining, there's no accurate test dish.  I hope instead to be intrigued by flavour and texture combinations.  I consider the experience to be a failure if I haven't been surprised or eaten one dish that was memorable for any reason.  

 

If I know the chef at any of these places, I often expect to have been used as a test-bunny before the dishes ever make it to the menu - which is what I thought you were talking about when I opened this thread!  I do the same thing with new flavours of dessert - I test them on fellow chefs.

[robie]

Sorry, I should have been clear.  The test dish is dependent on the cuisine.

 

rotus, IIRC, she said this on "Cooking with Claudine."  She just made the comment but it stuck with me.  I like to think that I can tell if a dish is well made, even if I don't personally like it but I could be full of bullfeathers.

Edited March 24, 2016 by robie (log)

[blue_dolphin]

3 hours ago, robie said:

Anyway, after that long digression, what do you use as test dishes at a new restaurant to judge whether the chef is good?

 

Since you used the word "judge," I assume you have a more impartial criteria in mind and I will quote something @Lisa Shock said with respect to judging competitions.  I think it's equally appropriate if you wish to "judge" a restaurant chef.  Here are some of points she mentioned:

 

On February 27, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Lisa Shock said:

...But the most important thing is that a judge set aside personal tastes. For example, I don't like asparagus and I never serve it at home. However, it shows up in competitions regularly and as a judge I evaluate it like any other item on the plate: is it trimmed and cleaned properly, is it easy to pick up with a fork (or fingers) and eat, is it cooked properly (not too crunchy, not too mushy), how is the sauce, is there some sort of innovation present, etc. Every judge has personal likes and dislikes, but, the position demands those be set aside. You know when you take the job that you will be forced to eat a wide variety of foods and they will not all be to your liking....

Edited March 24, 2016 by blue_dolphin
to add link (log)

[FrogPrincesse]

If they have a specialty, a dish they are known for, then of course that's the one to get.

 

But I don't like judging a place on a single dish. There is often something on the menu that is close to the chef's heart, maybe not a very popular item, but something he/she really likes making. If I can spot that one, I make sure to try that as well.

[Toliver]

When I was new to my current hometown, I used Chile Verde as my test dish for local Mexican restaurants. Not to sound racist but in general I'd ask myself if it was it authentic Mexican food or was it "white people's" Mexican food? There's a huge difference between the two. There are some popular Mexican restaurants here locally that I will not eat at because the food is "white people's" Mexican food...ground beef tacos  Chile Verde with not a hint of spiciness  or dishes topped with sour cream that somehow resists melting on hot food .

I agree with what others have posted...that using something simple as a test dish like potstickers for a Chinese restaurant can give you an indication of how the restaurant is being run. Do the potstickers have any flavor to them? So were they bought frozen from some supplier, or were they hand-made in the restaurant's kitchen because they have an assertive ginger flavor, which store-bought potstickers won't have? That sort of goes along with Claudine Pepin's guide to look at technique...meaning that, in this case, they were making their own recipe for potstickers and just added a little too much ginger. Fresh-made versus frozen.

And here's an easy one...does the Chinese fried rice contain peas and carrots?  That's a kitchen short-cut...using frozen veggies in the fried rice instead of chopping your own veggies. The restaurant is trying to save time and money by using frozen veggies because, after all, it's "just rice".  Really?

 

[robie]

50 minutes ago, blue_dolphin said:

 

Since you used the word "judge," I assume you have a more impartial criteria in mind and I will quote something @Lisa Shock said with respect to judging competitions.  I think it's equally appropriate if you wish to "judge" a restaurant chef.  Here are some of points she mentioned:

 

 

Thanks blue_dolphin and Lisa.  I think that is exactly what Claudine Pepin meant.  It is how I try to assess (I'm purposely avoiding "judge" because I am not so qualified) dishes when I don't intrinsically like them.

[jmacnaughtan]

I'm not sure I have a test dish - I judge by whether the food looks, smells and tastes like I want to eat it.  And preferably no silly plating or garnishes...

 

However, for desserts in a new place I'll go for the rum baba.  It's very hard to screw up, but it's also very hard to make it memorable.

 

ETA: If I'm being honest though, I'll often judge a restaurant more on the service than the food.  I've had a lot more good food ruined by lousy service than vice versa.

Edited March 25, 2016 by jmacnaughtan (log)

[Tri2Cook]

I don't get the reasoning behind wanting a specific "test dish" when checking out a new restaurant. If I go to a restaurant I've never been to before, I look at the menu, order what sounds good to me and eat it. If it's good, yay. If it's just okay, I may or may not come back again and give them another shot, if it sucks, I'm out. I can judge if the food is good (to me, which is all that matters if I'm the one eating it) or not without having a prearranged test in mind to judge by. Using something I like as a test dish is irrelevant because I'm not going to order something I don't like.

[gfweb]

2 hours ago, Tri2Cook said:

I don't get the reasoning behind wanting a specific "test dish" when checking out a new restaurant. If I go to a restaurant I've never been to before, I look at the menu, order what sounds good to me and eat it. If it's good, yay. If it's just okay, I may or may not come back again and give them another shot, if it sucks, I'm out. I can judge if the food is good (to me, which is all that matters if I'm the one eating it) or not without having a prearranged test in mind to judge by. Using something I like as a test dish is irrelevant because I'm not going to order something I don't like.

 

Of course.  Me too.

 

I don't go out ordering test dishes I don't like in a new place just as a test.  But I like General Tso and veal saltimboca and scrambled eggs. And if a place screws them up they tend to screw up other things too.

[rotuts]

another way of saying it :  if the items Ive mentioned  for me are really good, its likely that others Ive not tried might also be equally good.

 

or

 

Bad Naan is not a good sign suggesting extensive exploration of the menu.

[gulfporter]

When we try a new spot, we will usually order 3 or 4 starter plates, the most inventive/interesting ones on the menu.  

 

It's a way to sample as many dishes as possible in one visit.  

 

If everything we order is bad or mediocre, we'll never go back.  If it's a mixed bag, or we see some strokes of genius, we'll return for another try.  

 

We are lucky to live in an area with a large choice of eateries; we have lived in other locations where we could not be so selective.  

 

[suzilightning]

I LOVE coleslaw so if I am trying a barbeque place or deli I try the coleslaw.   I have found places that I liked the food EXCEPT the coleslaw .........but that's just me....

 

I like it creamy and I LOVE Mr. Ron's that I can now get now up here in NW NJ as the Acmes have expanded.

[DianaB]

Choice of restaurants is significantly limited in the area around us. Despite that, factors we will take into account before committing to eating somewhere include length of the menu. It is nice to find places that go to some effort to prepare their own dishes and a large number of choices can indicate that this is not the case. We also avoid places that use, to us, novel serving techniques, in particular a rectangle of slate in place of a plate. I just can't cope with the sound of a knife against slate! I appreciate this is a very personal thing and I know of places that will happily put our dinners onto plates for us in place of their usual slate.

 

Eating out is a rare treat for us, we have little time free together.  We would avoid the many 'pile it high' type places that are popular here. Also places based upon a 'buffet' that has been sitting under warming lamps for who knows how long. I understand these places can be great in some instances. I guess we are just difficult.  We are perhaps missing out by sticking to what we know but it is really disappointing to plan a trip weeks in advance only to find that restaurant staff have watched too many episodes of Masterchef and adapted their menus to match that programme's  'modern British cuisine'.  I would rather have something simple but well cooked. If a restaurant can cook us steaks to our liking and serve chips that didn't come ready made and frozen and a sauce that wasn't delivered ready to heat in a tetra pack it is probable that we would return and try something more adventurous on the next occasion.  :-) 

[Thanks for the Crepes]

I don't order "test dishes" as such, and certainly something I know I don't really want or like. If a Mexican, Tex-Mex or otherwise Latin restaurant cannot serve a decent salsa, which is the first thing you are usually offered, I am going to be out. A restaurant we used to go to frequently for a couple decades apparently changed hands, and now their salsa is just pureed tomato from a can. There is no onion, jalapeno or cilantro in the mix, and it is just really bad. Sure enough, the rest of the food has followed suit, and the scorching hot plates have been replaced with cheese enchiladas served with unmelted cheese. They used to have the best cheese enchiladas.  They won't get my business anymore, but fortunately we have plenty of good Latin restaurants with better food in our area. I have to make my own cheese enchiladas now to get back to the quality of the now dead to me resto, but that's okay. I can get delicious and perfectly cooked, perfectly accompanied skirt steak at our current favorite place, so that eases the pain of the loss of an old friend restaurant where the staff all knew us. 

 

If a southern Indian restaurant can't serve a delicious paper masala dosa, I'm also out. I know from my attempts to make these at home how difficult they are and how involved, so I leave it to the professionals. Again, very fortunately we have a great southern Indian restaurant nearby and their dosas are still up to what inspired me to try making them at home. Wikipedia says:"Masala dosa was listed as number 49 on World's 50 most delicious foods compiled by CNN Go in 2011." I agree, and wish I could make them myself. They also have great fluffy and light idly, which is another good test for Southern Indian. I'm not even gonna attempt these at home.

 

 

Edited April 14, 2016 by Thanks for the Crepes (log)

[BKEats]

my critical analysis of a place starts with the actual menu itself.  Most restaurants have these generic formulated menus comprised of frozen and canned, ready to serve Food Service items from Sysco or US Foods.  I am a competent cook and don't need to eat from someone else's freezer and drink their alcohol at a 500 times cost.  

 

For instance, Indian Restaurants.  It's a sorry state of affairs concerning the quality of Indian Restaurants.  I can name 80 percent of most menus before even reading the menu.  So, if a restaurant has the same generic butter and tomato sauce bullshit menu, I won't even try it.  I too can buy a jar of sauce at the store. And I know my chicken won't have been from some house of horrors. 

 

If if a pizza place sells Gyros, I won't eat there. 

 

If a Mexican place has pastor on the menu and I don't see a wheel.  If a Mexican place has canned beans on display or if it's the same generic menu that every other shitty Mexican place has, I'm not eating there.  

 

If a Thai place has the same generic menu, Pad Thai and a couple of curries and one or two papaya salads, I am not eating there. If a place has crab Rangoon on the menu, I'm not eating there. 

 

If an Italian Restaurant Claims to be Piedmontese or some other regional style cooking and they are serving a bunch of generic non region specific crap, I'm not eating there. 

 

I live in Brooklyn and every "American" restaurant  here has brussel sprouts, kale and burrata on the menu.  If there are too many of these generic buzz words and catchy dishes, I'm not going to eat there or I am because I'm meeting friends but, am not surprised when it sucks. 

 

I dont eat Chinese American Food. I tend to stick to regional Chinese places.  I am pretty good at determining whether the food will be good by the menu as well.

 

i don't think I have ever been surprised in the positive way.  I have often times been disappointed by a menu that reads well but, not the other way around.  

 

Oh, wait, If a bar has potato skins, I'm most likely going to order them. 

 

Didn't answer the question I guess. 

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2016 by BKEats (log)

[gfweb]

In some way related to this topic are the dishes you won't order in a restaurant because you know they will likely be worse than what you make at home.

 

For me, braised short ribs...lasagna...any turkey breast dish...pork loin.

[Tere]

I've been frightened off ever ordering lamb shank as a test dish after a truly horrible experience a few years back, which manages no 2 on my worst meals eaten in the UK. No 1 has thankfully gone the way of the dodo.