Sous vide short ribs, times, and temperatures

[JoNorvelleWalker]

1 hour ago, BeefStewpid said:

@rotuts ZipLoc freezer bags.  Just using the water submersion method for sealing.  Hands washed well.  Meat was not on sale meat, was fresh cuts from Whole Foods.

 

I have no proof to back this up but I would not use ZipLoc bags for long cooking.  By long I mean over a couple of hours.

 

[gfweb]

I often use Zip Locs, sometimes for over a day, and I've not had this happen ever. So I don't think the problem is inherent to the bag.

[btbyrd]

Really sorry to hear about the bad luck you've been having with this.

 

To avoid growth of spoilage bacteria during extended cooks, it's recommended to either pre-sear or do a quick initial blanch in boiling water to kill any surface bacteria. I almost always presear. I almost never blanch. Never had a problem.

 

 

[daveb]

From your description it sounds like it's gone "off".  The first (and only) time this happened to me I was doing short ribs for 40 and I noticed some floaters on the second day.  Made the mistake of opening one of the bags - the smell would gag a maggot.

 

I posed the question here and other sites and concluded there was probably a surface bacteria on one or more ribs, (there was some cross contact during marinating).  It was probably no fault of the butcher or the cook (me) and it probably would have been killed off without incident had the ribs been cooked conventionally.

It was suggested that the bagged product could have / should have been immersed in boiling water briefly prior to the long/low temp cook to kill any surface "stuff".   I've done this brief immersion anytime I do an overnight cook now and have had no further issues.

 

For your first situation I'would have eaten the ribs but not served them to others.  This time I would round file the whole lot.

 

Next time?  Thirds a charm or something like that.

[rotuts]

""  

To avoid growth of spoilage bacteria during extended cooks, it's recommended to either pre-sear or do a quick initial blanch in boiling water to kill any surface bacteria. I almost always presear. I almost never blanch. Never had a problem.

 

""

 

I don't mean to be crass about this , nor superior.   

 

however Ive been doing SV for several years.  I have a freezer full of SV packs  , ok 3/4.  and Ive even at least that much over time.

 

I generally do bulk SV in a large 'beer cooler '   sometimes 18+ packs at a time , which is how the freezer stays full.

 

Ive never had a floater , never had and off smell.  and Ive done many many long SV'd.   most of course are not that long  < 12 hours.

 

something is going on with those with the problem, and its not prevalent here.

 

it has to be technique of handling , or contaminated items to start with.

 

I do bulk SV with sale items , for obvious reasons.   but the stuff is fresh , never a Managers Special used to get rid of stuff thats almost out of date.

 

Ive never pre-seared , and never initially blanched.    if your system of SV requires this to prevent Smells and Bloatage , you need to carefully look at all

 

your steps.  something is wrong somewhere.

 

I wish I knew what it was so I might help.   

[rustwood]

17 hours ago, BeefStewpid said:

@rotuts  Meat was not on sale meat, was fresh cuts from Whole Foods.

 

That doesn't necessarily guarantee that they didn't already have a head start on developing some funk.  I once had half a case of shortribs that came directly from a supplier and just one of the Cryovac'd packages it contained had a noticeable funk when it was opened.  I have had the same experience with whole packer briskets that were "fresh".

 

My unqualified understanding is that with meat there isn't even remotely a binary good/bad or fresh/spoiled dichotomy, it is the continuum of starting bacteria counts that matter.  With most cooking methods it ends up effectively being a binary state in nearly all instances, but with lower temperature sous vide (especially sub-optimal sous vide), the starting bacteria count can have a big impact.   Although a long enough cook may kill the harmful bacteria, before that occurs they can still grow to high enough levels to add an unpleasant funk.  I realize you may know that and there are many others here who seem to have real expertise in this area, I am just throwing it out there so others can comment if I am mistaken in any way.

[rotuts]

@rustwood  

 

I agree with all you say.

 

I wished only to point out that its exceptionally easy after you pick up said meat  to add a great deal of funk on you own time.

 

nothing more.

[daveb]

I find the "blanch" step analogous to wearing a seat belt while driving.  I don't think I could drive down the street without buckling up.    I've had 1 SV cook go funky, now I blanch all long (overnight) cooks under 140F.  Rustwood described it well, the spoilage is a continuum, not a binary yes/no.

[weedy]

I'm wondering if I should start another thread with this, but, here's my question:

 

i'm going to do a 72hr short rib sealed in vacuum bags. 

I'll finish them with a quick pan sear (or pan fry) but what I'd LIKE to do is sear them before dinner starts and put them back into open top bags in the circulator at 132F to HOLD them, an hour or so, until I'm ready to serve the main course. 

 

Anyone have feelings about this?

 

 

[btbyrd]

If you don't care about the crust, go for it. But if you put seared meat in a bag and hold it in a bath for any length of time, it's going to come out with a soggy bottom.

 

If you need to need to speed up the pickup on SV short ribs, deep fry them. You can go from bath to plate in under 2 minutes. And that's including the time it takes to pat them dry.

[BeefStewpid]

Really appreciate the advice/feedback!  Thanks y'all.  I'll probably hold off on take 3 for a bit and get a few more short cooks under my belt before trying a long one again (we're 4/4 for short cooks but 0/2 for long.)  We will achieve great victory eventually and will post some tasty photos when that happens.  

 

 

[weedy]

On 12/18/2016 at 3:42 PM, btbyrd said:

If you don't care about the crust, go for it. But if you put seared meat in a bag and hold it in a bath for any length of time, it's going to come out with a soggy bottom.

 

If you need to need to speed up the pickup on SV short ribs, deep fry them. You can go from bath to plate in under 2 minutes. And that's including the time it takes to pat them dry.

 

I suppose my thought, and hope!, is that by keeping the bag tops open, it won't get too 'wet' in there in about an hour.

 

I know I can fry them, but I don't have a deep fryer, and part of my issue here is that my table is right there, attached to my kitchen.

I don't like finishing a course while guests sit right there... that's just me.... so I have to either be ready to go with little fuss between courses, or make them bugger off out of the room between courses.

[btbyrd]

Making a recipe for chili con carne that I've had floating in my head for a while. Did some short ribs at 130F for 72 hours, chilled them down, cut them into cubes, and froze them solid. I'm going to deep fry them from frozen and move them to a 130F bath with the chili base to let the flavors mingle. There will also be ground and braised short rib in the final version... I'm thinking these little cubes of medium rare short rib will add a special steaky meatiness to the dish.

 

Froze them on parchment...

 

Then sealed them up until it's time to fry. 

 

 

Planning on holding them in the sauce (post-fry) for an hour or so. Worth a shot, right?

Edited December 23, 2016 by btbyrd (log)

[weedy]

Worth a shot for sure. Although as you're essentially braising then in the sauce to finish, I'm not sure I'd bother  to fry at all. 

[scubadoo97]

I bet that will turn out great.  Looking forward to your results

[daveb]

I could accept Chili as a spiritual thing.  Awaiting a report.  .

[chromedome]

On 18/12/2016 at 9:57 AM, rustwood said:

 

That doesn't necessarily guarantee that they didn't already have a head start on developing some funk.  I once had half a case of shortribs that came directly from a supplier and just one of the Cryovac'd packages it contained had a noticeable funk when it was opened.  I have had the same experience with whole packer briskets that were "fresh".

 

My unqualified understanding is that with meat there isn't even remotely a binary good/bad or fresh/spoiled dichotomy, it is the continuum of starting bacteria counts that matter.  With most cooking methods it ends up effectively being a binary state in nearly all instances, but with lower temperature sous vide (especially sub-optimal sous vide), the starting bacteria count can have a big impact.   Although a long enough cook may kill the harmful bacteria, before that occurs they can still grow to high enough levels to add an unpleasant funk.  I realize you may know that and there are many others here who seem to have real expertise in this area, I am just throwing it out there so others can comment if I am mistaken in any way.

A bit late on this, but I can assure you that a bit of funk when you open cryo'd meats is absolutely normal. Many's the time I've had a panic-stricken young line cook come to me all of a tizzy, believing that the day's entree would have to be scrapped. It's just how meats wet-age inside the cryo pack. After 10-15 minutes, the smell largely dissipates. 

 

If you blot any surface juices from the meat with clean paper towels, then sear or blanch it, you're good to go. 

 

Bear in mind, the bacteria that cause funky smells are not pathogens, which typically leave no evidence of their presence. 

 

Rustwood is right about bacterial populations, though. Each pathogen has what's called an "infective dose," the population required to make one ill. That might be millions or just a few hundred, depending on the pathogen (it can be frighteningly low with listeria, for example). The larger the original population, the more quickly you reach the infective dose. The same principle holds for spoilage bacteria, though the stakes are lower because most people wouldn't be able to choke down enough of the finished dish to make themselves really ill.

 

(Apologies to those who already know this, but reiterated for the sake of those who don't.)

[rustwood]

1 hour ago, chromedome said:

I can assure you that a bit of funk when you open cryo'd meats is absolutely normal. Many's the time I've had a panic-stricken young line cook come to me all of a tizzy, believing that the day's entree would have to be scrapped. It's just how meats wet-age inside the cryo pack. After 10-15 minutes, the smell largely dissipates.

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Bear in mind, the bacteria that cause funky smells are not pathogens, which typically leave no evidence of their presence.

 

I have read that the funk in cryo'd meat packages is "normal", but it still seems less than ideal and it would make me less likely to do a low temp SV cook with them - certainly not a shorter one.  I think this is the first time I have heard that the bacteria that cause the smells are not pathogens.  Without any actual facts to base it on, I am still inclined to think that the worse the meat smells, the more likely it is to be harmful to me.  Also, at some point things must get beyond wet aging and into the range of too old to safely eat - no?

 

With that said,  I am familiar with getting some degree of off smells in cryo'd meat and it usually doesn't put me off.  The racks of shortribs I mentioned were more than a little funky, but they were pricey prime beef so I essentially did as you suggested, kept them separate from the others, cooked them for myself, and carefully sampled them.  They still had an off taste.

 

[Ranz]

On 12/23/2016 at 2:18 AM, btbyrd said:

Planning on holding them in the sauce (post-fry) for an hour or so. Worth a shot, right?

 

 

How did the experiment pan out?

[btbyrd]

They're still in the freezer. It turned out that the chili was meaty enough with the ground chuck and pressure cooked short rib that I thought the SV short ribs would get lost.

 

I'll find a use for them. They'd be good atop a mushroom risotto, so super-buttery potato puree, or as a garnish for pho. Inspiration will strike when the time is right.

[gfweb]

3 hours ago, chromedome said:

A bit late on this, but I can assure you that a bit of funk when you open cryo'd meats is absolutely normal. Many's the time I've had a panic-stricken young line cook come to me all of a tizzy, believing that the day's entree would have to be scrapped. It's just how meats wet-age inside the cryo pack. After 10-15 minutes, the smell largely dissipates. 

 

If you blot any surface juices from the meat with clean paper towels, then sear or blanch it, you're good to go. 

 

Bear in mind, the bacteria that cause funky smells are not pathogens, which typically leave no evidence of their presence. 

 

Rustwood is right about bacterial populations, though. Each pathogen has what's called an "infective dose," the population required to make one ill. That might be millions or just a few hundred, depending on the pathogen (it can be frighteningly low with listeria, for example). The larger the original population, the more quickly you reach the infective dose. The same principle holds for spoilage bacteria, though the stakes are lower because most people wouldn't be able to choke down enough of the finished dish to make themselves really ill.

 

(Apologies to those who already know this, but reiterated for the sake of those who don't.)

 

And toxin -induced food poisoning eg Staph aureus and botulism required no viable bugs because the toxin was formed pre cooking.

 

Apologies to @chromedome and all others who know this already.

[paulraphael]

As funk precaution before long cooks, I dip the bags in simmering water for one minute before putting them in the bath. I'm making a few assumptions about the conductivity of the plastic and the thermal mass of any fluids in the bag, but it should be enough to pasteurize the surface. 

 

After this routine, even after several long cooks, including 4 hour pre-cooking at 40°C, I've never had a hint of bad funk. 

 

I use ziplocs. No problems ever with long cooks. They are fragile, though, during and immediately after the dip in simmering water. So you have to handle them carefully there and check the seal afterwards. Once they cool down a bit they get their strength back.

[FrogPrincesse]

I have some short ribs cooking right now. I adapted Bourdain's recipe in les Halles and went with the recommended time & temperature from Anova for a braise, 24 hours at 82.2C. I see that most people on this thread seem to be going way lower in temperature and I was a bit concerned (it's my first time cooking short ribs with the sous vide), but then I read this little guide from Chef Steps and this was actually one of their options too, for a traditional braise with "fall apart" meat. I am going to find out how I like this tonight or tomorrow night...

Edited January 17, 2017 by FrogPrincesse
added link (log)

[btbyrd]

I'll be interested to hear your report. I have only ever done very low temp SV short ribs (130F or 140F) and either braise or pressure cook them when I want the shredded/falling apart texture. When cooking at that temp for so long, make sure you keep your water levels topped off. I've never had a problem with my circulator shutting off, but you get a lot of evaporation at those sorts of temps; lids/plastic wrap are highly recommended if you're not using a big vessel.

[Anna N]

Nothing wrong with aiming for the texture of a typical braise but just once do try short ribs that approach the texture of steak. It is a revelation.