The Food Safety and Home Kitchen Hygiene/Sanitation Topic

[Ttogull]

I hope you do not mind, but I would like to try to answer your question without being an expert or even having any training. I would like to explain my logic. I have recently begun fermenting foods, and it has been quite an education as it seems to be, IMHO, an exercise in growing bacteria. Thus, if my logic is wrong, I would appreciate learning why to improve my understanding. Of course, if it is correct, I appreciate validation too!

In short, I would dispose of the meat.

I have seen with my own eyes that bacteria can grow quickly at room temperature. A couple of jars of ground chiles and a sauerkale have bubbled vigorously at room temp well within 12 hours, with the sauerkale expanding past the capacity of the jar within that time due to the bacterial activity. This is even with a "salt to taste" level of salinity.

The goal of vegetable fermentation is to have the good bacteria win over the pathogenic. An anaerobic environment is created, but with conditions that favor the good. Good bacteria, however, are more susceptible to relatively high temperatures, whereas some bad bacteria, such as botulism, can survive beyond normal temperatures for cooking meat. Thus, at typical meat SV temps, the bad bacteria can survive while the good is killed. Thus SV'ed meat left at room temp, even after refrigeration, really leaves the bad bacteria with a good anaerobic environment to grow without any competition.

As I understand things, this does not guarantee the meat is bad. But it opens the possibility. And the trouble with some bad bacteria is that it doesn't necessarily give signs that it is present. My understanding is that bad bacteria is everywhere, but kept in check by the good that is also everywhere. It's a question of balance, but SV cooking tilts the balance in favor of the bad. That does not mean that SV is bad, just that one needs to be careful.

I have become more relaxed about bacteria. I have thrown out all the anti-bacterial hand soaps and dishwashing liquids in my house. Instead of automatically washing my hands, I ask if doing so is really necessary. If I know the entire history of a veg, I might not wash it except to get the gritty dirt off. That said, I would not eat your meat.

[Lisa Shock]

And, in the case of some of the bad bacteria, especially anaerobic, they produce toxins which, once in the food, cannot be cooked out. -Unlike some foodborne illness which are bacteria or viruses which infect your your body with disease which are killed by heating.

[Porthos]

I will be making a vegan rice dish using the ingredients listed below. After cooling it will be put into disposable foil 2-pans and refrigerated. I will need to transport them along with other food items on a six hour car trip. Since cooler space is at a premium I would prefer not to put them into a cooler. They will go back on ice at the destination and be reheated in the oven before service. Can I safely transport them without being kept cold?

 

6 Cup long grain rice

Olive oil, enough to coat the bottom of the pot

18 or more cloves of garlic

12 Cups hot water

2 Large onions, halved and very thinly sliced

6 Cubes Knorr Vegetable bouillon

1 Can tomato paste

[Martin Fisher]

Only if they remain at refrigerator temperatures

Maybe borrow an extra cooler..

[pastrygirl]

I think if they are above 40 for all six hours it could be risky, technically, with rice being a nice growing medium.  On a practical level, I doubt anything too nasty would grow in 6 hours, or that wouldn't be neutralized by thorough re-heating.  I'd find some ice packs that could be put between the pans, then wrap them together and try to keep them in a cool part of the car.

Edited September 25, 2014 by pastrygirl (log)

[Alex]

You'd probably be fine if you follow pastrygirl's suggestion, plus wrap everything in a comforter, but why not play safe and just buy an inexpensive styrofoam cooler (and a few ice packs, or a bag of ice)? That way you don't have to worry in case you get stuck in traffic and the trip turns into more than six hours.

[Porthos]

Coolers are not the problem. I own way too many. Space in my Corolla with 3 adults and their stuff along with the food is what I am dealing with.

 

I have changed course. We cook large batches of rice, portion it and freeze it on a regular basis. With that in mind i am going to put the finished rice into Ziploc bags and freeze them. That way they will take up less space than if in pans and also provide more "Ice packs" in the cooler.

[Martin Fisher]

That's a much better idea in the context of safety!!! 

Edited September 25, 2014 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[Shalmanese]

Rice is particularly vulnerable to B. cereus which is a nasty bug.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Shalmanese (log)

[pyrguy]

The last bout of intestinal stuff I had the Dr. asked if I had eaten rice in a restaurant. She said it's the number one source of food poisoning.

[mkayahara]

Rice is particularly vulnerable to B. cereus which is a nasty bug.

And, more to the point, the toxin it produces is not denatured by reheating.

[dcarch]

Rice is particularly vulnerable to B. cereus which is a nasty bug.

 

Not to dispute this safety advice. Just want to know.

 

What about bread? beer, rice wine? etc?

 

B. cereus can survive in all the above too.

 

 

dcarch 

[gfweb]

But all of them have been cooked/fermented which greatly if not completely lowers the chances of spores surviving to proliferate.

[dcarch]

But all of them have been cooked/fermented which greatly if not completely lowers the chances of spores surviving to proliferate.

 

I think B. cereus can susvive cooking and fermentation. 

 

Interestingly, I have always cooked rice in a pressure cooker, which may (I am not sure) make it safe.

 

 

dcarch

[gfweb]

The antibiotic issue is more complex than correcting for crowding etc.

 

Antibiotics are actually growth stimulants in cattle and swine. Doubtless something to do with altering the gut flora affecting growth.

 

The boost is somewhere on the order of 10-15% IIRC. 

 

So there is clear economic incentive to use them in an industry where margins are slim.

 

(This isn't a defense of the practice.)

[dcarch]

I am not against sanitizing thermometers. I am just curious about everyone's thinking process and justifications in getting things done.

 

If you eat out, how clean do you think they sanitize every kitchen item in preparation of food stuff? 

 

How about sushi making with bare hands? Think about how salads are made in a restaurant.

 

dcarch

 

 

[Martin Fisher]

13 minutes ago, dcarch said:

If you eat out, how clean do you think they sanitize every kitchen item in preparation of food stuff? 

 

Yeah, this is one of the reasons why I very rarely eat out. 

 

Anyway, I think keeping thermometers well cleaned and sanitized is good practice.

http://www.mda.state.mn.us/Global/MDADocs/food/foodsafety/mod-materials/sanitizethermoms.aspx

[dcarch]

2 minutes ago, DiggingDogFarm said:

 

Yeah, this is one of the reasons why I very rarely eat out. 

 

Anyway, I think keeping thermometers well cleaned and sanitized is good practice.

http://www.mda.state.mn.us/Global/MDADocs/food/foodsafety/mod-materials/sanitizethermoms.aspx

 

Not questioning the correctness of that paper. Just wondering if the recommendation was based on actual experiments, tests, etc. or just opinions.

I also would like to see comments about the problem of living in a germ-free environment for normal humans.

 

dcarch

 

[Martin Fisher]

13 minutes ago, dcarch said:

Not questioning the correctness of that paper. Just wondering if the recommendation was based on actual experiments, tests, etc. or just opinions.

 

I guess you'll have to ask them.

My opinion is that sanitizing the thermometer — especially before returning it to the holder (to avoid contaminating the wall mounted holder) and sanitizing it again after removing it from the holder — is good practice.

I don't need so-called 'experts' to confirm that.

Edited October 28, 2016 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[Jim D.]

This is a very relevant topic for me right now as my state allows home kitchens to be approved for the making of food items for sale after an inspection, and I just had my first conversation with the inspector a day or so ago. I must confess I had not really thought of all the contamination there might be, but he certainly brought it to my mind (cleaning surfaces with a bleach and water solution, for example). The alcohol wipes mentioned in this thread sound as if they might do the trick. Reflecting on what @dcarch said, I am the first to approve of a sanitary place for food prep--and I am going to have to teach myself some new and demanding procedures if I want to go through with this inspection--but aren't many sanitation procedures an illusion? After utensils are removed from a sanitizing cycle of a dishwasher or after a counter is wiped down with a bleach solution, how many seconds pass before they are subject to recontamination from what floats through the air of a typical kitchen?

[quiet1]

4 hours ago, Jim D. said:

This is a very relevant topic for me right now as my state allows home kitchens to be approved for the making of food items for sale after an inspection, and I just had my first conversation with the inspector a day or so ago. I must confess I had not really thought of all the contamination there might be, but he certainly brought it to my mind (cleaning surfaces with a bleach and water solution, for example). The alcohol wipes mentioned in this thread sound as if they might do the trick. Reflecting on what @dcarch said, I am the first to approve of a sanitary place for food prep--and I am going to have to teach myself some new and demanding procedures if I want to go through with this inspection--but aren't many sanitation procedures an illusion? After utensils are removed from a sanitizing cycle of a dishwasher or after a counter is wiped down with a bleach solution, how many seconds pass before they are subject to recontamination from what floats through the air of a typical kitchen?

 

My understanding is that part of the point of regular cleaning with a sanitizing solution isn't so much to remove the chance of one or two stray germs as it is to prevent the germs from setting up shop and reproducing to problem levels. However the easily wiped surfaces are usually less risk for that anyway than all the nooks and crannies where things meet, so if you're really trying to be careful you need to pay attention to detail - get into any seams that might be present and so on.

 

I do like the idea of alcohol wipes - though I think what I will do is get one of those bottles like they use in nail salons where you push down and a small amount is dispensed up? Fill it with cheap vodka and then I can have a wipe as big or as small as I want depending how much paper towel I use with it. Plus the wipes are wasteful and all the little packets drive me nuts. (We have a bunch of them around anyway because someone in the house needs an injected medication, and the things somehow end up EVERYWHERE no matter how careful you are to throw them away. Usually parts of the packaging, like the little bit you rip to open it if it's ripped off? Argh.)

 

Anyway, it is probably overkill for most folks, but we have two people with compromised immune systems and it isn't worth the risk of getting sick.

[Anna N]

@quiet1

 

Once you are dealing with folks who are immune compromised then the game changes. I have been there so I do know.   When that isn't the case I object to changing my kitchen into an operating room.   

[chromedome]

2 hours ago, quiet1 said:

 

My understanding is that part of the point of regular cleaning with a sanitizing solution isn't so much to remove the chance of one or two stray germs as it is to prevent the germs from setting up shop and reproducing to problem levels.

 

 

That's the nut of the argument, right there. The issue is what's called the "infective dose" -- the population of a given pathogen that's required, in order to make you sick -- and it varies wildly between pathogens. A few thousand will do it with some, while others require populations well into the millions. The larger the starting population, the more favorable the conditions and the longer they have to reproduce, the greater the likelihood that you'll reach that threshold. 

 

Straight-up cleaning with hot soapy water sharply reduces the number and viability of pathogens. Sanitizing with an appropriately-diluted substance reduces pathogen populations sharply (several orders of magnitude, IIRC) while leaving your surfaces still food safe (sanitizers themselves can be toxic in inappropriate concentrations). Sterilization takes things a step further, but you won't find an autoclave in very many kitchens because outside of specific healthcare scenarios there isn't much of a case for it. 

[Spork]

I like the way this has turned. 

 

Wiping an apron could add the colony. 

 

I prefer upfront prevention. 

[Arey]

18 hours ago, Porthos said:

A quick soap and water cleaning, rinse, dry with a fresh paper towel. Same technique I've used for all probe thermometers for years.  To me the main thing is to clean immediately before anything can begin to dry or crust.

It's the same with me.  I have a separate thermopen that I use for bread baking that I just wipe with a dry paper napkin after using it.  The one I wipe with warm soap and water is the one I use for meat and has the standard point.  The break baking one has the thicker point since I like a good crust on bread.  I also only wipe my bread knife off with a dry paper napkin after using.