Food Ethics

[Duvel]

Staff note: This post and the repsonses to it were split from the Dinner 2023 topic, to maintain focus.

 

13 hours ago, heidih said:

Used to be veal before that became protein non grata.

When did that happen ?

[chromedome]

23 minutes ago, Duvel said:

When did that happen ?

At around the same time foie gras was suddenly beyond the pale (here in North America). Why veal is vilified but lamb still gets a pass is one of life's little mysteries, I guess.

[gfweb]

11 minutes ago, chromedome said:

At around the same time foie gras was suddenly beyond the pale (here in North America). Why veal is vilified but lamb still gets a pass is one of life's little mysteries, I guess.

 

Plenty of foie in my part of NA. Veal too, in restaurants.

[chromedome]

13 minutes ago, gfweb said:

 

Plenty of foie in my part of NA. Veal too, in restaurants.

I can get both in my neck of the woods, as well. There has been a pushback against both, though, on the grounds of animal cruelty.

...presumably from those who don't care to know about the provenance of their mass-market pork, eggs from battery chickens, etc.

[billyhill]

30 minutes ago, chromedome said:

I can get both in my neck of the woods, as well. There has been a pushback against both, though, on the grounds of animal cruelty.

...presumably from those who don't care to know about the provenance of their mass-market pork, eggs from battery chickens, etc.

Patience, they will be coming for it all eventually. Enjoy your bugs and lab grown "meat".

 

Back on topic, curried beef and black beans.

[chromedome]

14 minutes ago, billyhill said:

Patience, they will be coming for it all eventually. Enjoy your bugs and lab grown "meat".

 

Back on topic, curried beef and black beans.

 

I have no issue with eating insects, but I refuse to special-order them at a premium.   Similarly, as/if/when cultured meat becomes cost-competitive with the conventional kind, I'll cheerfully buy and use it (just as I buy faux-beef products now for my GF, who can't eat beef or pork for medical reasons). But mostly I buy whatever's on special or marked down at the supermarket, because I'm a cheap son of a- frugal.

 

OTOH, I raise, (humanely) slaughter and eat my own rabbits, and will likely add chickens to the mix over the next month or so. I also get poultry and eggs from vendors at my local farmer's market, and game from various friends and family members who hunt. I'm not doctrinaire, and firmly believe that there's no such thing as a "cruelty-free" meal. But that's a whole other discussion, one that has taken place in dribs and drabs across multiple topics here on the forum (and I've been slapped before for taking threads OT, so I'll stop now).

[Margaret Pilgrim]

A study of various agriculture lobbies at both state and federal level would be interesting.   Dairy, pork and poultry seem to be effectively keeping PETA at bay.

[heidih]

I made the "protein non grata" comment based on my location and what I see in food media. In the late 70s/early 80s I could get veal easily at mainstream grocers. Not now. I think one upscale place will order it but not worth it to my current cooking style. Though I have fond memorie of a stuffed breast of veal from Julia. Fiddly but wonderful. 

[Duvel]

But does this imply that there is a real bias towards eating veal, or is it simply lack of customer demand ?

[Anna N]

11 minutes ago, Duvel said:

But does this imply that there is a real bias towards eating veal, or is it simply lack of customer demand ?

I am finding it very difficult to cite reliable sources that will answer your question. I do recall a time in Canada when consumers rejected veal on the basis of farming practises. It seems to me it was long before foie gras became problematic. On the other hand veal never made an appearance on my plate growing up in the Midlands of the UK. My suspicion is that veal is not as significant in some cultures as in others. But, as I said, this is just an opinion. 

[Duvel]

I have never really understood the “upside” of veal, that elevates it over - let’s say pork. It is a rather neutral tasting protein, pretty much like the lean pork is nowadays. It has a lot of collagen, which makes long cooked cuts juicy and tender. But then there is the significantly cheaper suckling pig, which amplifies that trait. 
 

Don’t get me wrong: I do like veal, especially in its medium-rare state, like a SV veal Tafelspitz. But I only buy it on offer, when the premium it usually fetches is gone …

[heidih]

5 minutes ago, Duvel said:

I have never really understood the “upside” of veal, that elevates it over - let’s say pork. It is a rather neutral tasting protein, pretty much like the lean pork is nowadays. It has a lot of collagen, which makes long cooked cuts juicy and tender. But then there is the significantly cheaper suckling pig, which amplifies that trait. 
 

Don’t get me wrong: I do like veal, especially in its medium-rare state, like a SV veal Tafelspitz. But I only buy it on offer, when the premium it usually fetches is gone …

This is an  older WaPo article on the US veal controversy.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/food/1989/06/14/conflict-over-veal/f30581a1-9938-4545-aa9f-cc14080179ff/

Edited April 25, 2023 by heidih (log)

[Duvel]

1 minute ago, heidih said:

This is an  older WaPo article on the US veal controversy.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/food/1989/06/14/conflict-over-veal/f30581a1-9938-4545-aa9f-cc14080179ff/

Thanks 😌

 

Would you say this article is still apt in the US after 34 years ?

[blue_dolphin]

16 minutes ago, Duvel said:

Thanks 😌

 

Would you say this article is still apt in the US after 34 years ?

 

I think it's still apt in the sense that eating veal remains controversial, though I believe husbandry has been improved.  

 

This NYT article, Veal Farmers Adopt More Humane Methods, is almost 10 years old but I believe this comment is still apt: 

Quote

American consumption of veal is still low, a result of the stark imagery of crated calves headed for restaurant kitchens, where they were made into dishes with Marsala or Parmesan. In the mid-1970s, diners ate as much as 3.5 pounds of veal a year. Last year, the average was a third of a pound per person.

"To be honest, the common consumer perception hasn’t changed much,” said Jurian Bartelse, the past president of the American Veal Association, a trade group. “It’s, ‘Oh, those poor calves.’ ”

 

 

 

[heidih]

Yup, there is a well paved  road in my brain that goes directly to those old black ad white images of a scared looking calf in a little pen.

 

On the other hand I watched a Sonny Side video where he interviews a large producer of roast suckling pigs in Hong Kong There are many long rods with the lubed up piglets ready to spit roast and he asks the owner if he ever feels bad about the cute little piglets. The guy looks at him like he is nuts and replies without hesutation NO customers like, tastes good.

 

I think many if not most in urban areas of US disconnect the live animal and its life path from the packages in the market  When grandma culled the young roosters from the hens in her solo chicken raising experiment us kids would boycott the fried chicken meal. When my mom decided it was Rudi the rooster's time we gagged at the soup. Course he was so tough the soup meat was nasty. I was not above turning his spurs into jewelry. 

 

It is a hard discussion on where lines should be drawn. You have vegans, vegetarians, pescetarians (not to mention the octopus controversy) and that is part of the big picture of labor conditions and food insecurity. I think it is nice to have a choice and info on provenance so I can make an informed decision when I buy. 

[Anna N]

1 hour ago, blue_dolphin said:

I think it's still apt in the sense that eating veal remains controversial, though I believe husbandry has been improved.  

Doing some serious soul-searching here. It is easy to give up chocolate for Lent if you don't like chocolate in the first place. I remember reading about the treatment of calves in order to produce veal and being appalled. (I had only a vague idea of how other farm animals were treated.) But I remember swearing off veal, a meat I never ate anyway. I felt very virtuous. Calves liver? Bring it on. It wasn't veal. Such cruelty to baby animals. Suckling pig? Bring it on. It wasn't veal. Such hypocrisy. I was young, naïve and in some strange way wanted also to be idealistic. Eschewing veal fit the bill. 
 

I am older now but not necessarily wiser. I still refuse for the most part to eat veal
I have used it in only one dish that I know of and that is a soup with a romantic name. No logic to this either.
 

I just wonder how much my experience reflects my generation and my culture in my part of the world. 

 

I think veal remains a controversial protein in my part of the world. 

[AlaMoi]

. . . . and not a word about lamb . . .

the slaughter and eating of young animals - based on 'they're tender&tasty' - hits so many hot buttons, very difficult to make a comprehensive OMG! list.

 

curiously, this OMG! reaction is not applied to chickens.  the very definition between fryer / roaster / stewer is age.

frequently couched / hidden in "weight groups" but be not fooled, lower weight = young birds.  measured in weeks at xyz specific feeds, all very very 'scientifically' determined.

 

years ago , , , neighbor youngsters would come over, and time to time they+our kids would do some 'gardening' aka 'picking'

their eye would bulge extraordinaire at carrots coming out of the ground . . . peas inside a pod??  stunning stuff was it....

kids even then had no idea where their food came from, today . . . even less.

 

school field trips do not include chicken or beef slaughter houses.

[blue_dolphin]

3 hours ago, Anna N said:

Doing some serious soul-searching here. It is easy to give up chocolate for Lent if you don't like chocolate in the first place. I remember reading about the treatment of calves in order to produce veal and being appalled. (I had only a vague idea of how other farm animals were treated.) But I remember swearing off veal, a meat I never ate anyway. I felt very virtuous. Calves liver? Bring it on. It wasn't veal. Such cruelty to baby animals. Suckling pig? Bring it on. It wasn't veal. Such hypocrisy. I was young, naïve and in some strange way wanted also to be idealistic. Eschewing veal fit the bill. 
 

I am older now but not necessarily wiser. I still refuse for the most part to eat veal
I have used it in only one dish that I know of and that is a soup with a romantic name. No logic to this either.
 

I just wonder how much my experience reflects my generation and my culture in my part of the world. 

 

I think veal remains a controversial protein in my part of the world. 

Growing up, veal was very much a celebratory meal in our family. My brother always chose it for his birthday meal.  It was a big treat whenever we had it. Since it was expensive, my mom kept an eye out for it on sale and hoarded it in the freezer to have enough for everyone. She treated it like gold, carefully trimming off every tiny bit of sinew and pounding it very thin in a schnitzel-like prep. The result was always excellent, but as @Duvel mentioned, it's very mild and pork could work equally well.  Returning to meat eating after 30+ vegetarian years, I haven't tried to recreate it.  I'm happy with the memories.

[gfweb]

I have no compunctions about veal, but I pretty much don't see the point of eating it. Not much flavor/texture...why bother?  Veal parm is nice, but pork is an easy, and more tasty sub.  I recall an article testing the meatball mix of pork, beef and veal. Veal was found to add little to the end product.

Edited April 26, 2023 by gfweb (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Before veal became "unfashionable", a favorite company meal was roast leg of veal, boned and rolled.   Roasted to a rosy pink, tender as love and an extraordinarily lush flavor.    Served with pan juices.    Not cheap but worth every cent.   

 

Next to that, I loved a good veal chop, again, rosy.  

 

I am not at all against eating veal but shy from eating it alone.   In France I have no such problem.

[Katie Meadow]

On 4/25/2023 at 7:53 PM, Margaret Pilgrim said:

Before veal became "unfashionable", a favorite company meal was roast leg of veal, boned and rolled.   Roasted to a rosy pink, tender as love and an extraordinarily lush flavor.    Served with pan juices.    Not cheap but worth every cent.   

 

Next to that, I loved a good veal chop, again, rosy.  

 

I am not at all against eating veal but shy from eating it alone.   In France I have no such problem.

What do you mean, "eating it alone?"

 

And this topic is very confusing. Are we discussing only the ethics of eating baby animals vs adults? Or just baby cows vs baby other animals? Food Ethics is such an enormous topic. When it comes to cows alone you could fill a library. There are just too many cows on earth. And when it comes to food ethics in general, we all make our own personal deals with the devil. 

[chromedome]

16 minutes ago, Katie Meadow said:

There are just too many cows on earth. And when it comes to food ethics in general, we all make our own personal deals with the devil. 

Tamar Haspel is fond of saying that honest discussions of food and sustainability are "all compromises, all the time." The same largely applies to the ethics of what we eat.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

15 minutes ago, Katie Meadow said:

What do you mean, "eating it alone?"

 

Cooking veal only for me since dh avoids it.    

Various posters are probably talking about each of the combinations you list.

[billyhill]

When I discuss the Endangered Species Act with my students, I have what is hopefully, a very serious discussion about the "paupers of love" (Calvin Trilling, IIRC). Who is going to protect those that are not cute, cuddly, majestic, or marketable on a t-shirt or stuffed animal?

 

Calves/veal are cute and cuddly.  Foie gra brings with it a sense of violation people can identify with on some level. There is a lost battalion of other creatures deserving the same consideration, but endangered status/protection of any type is ultimately a political process.

 

What is to become of the paupers of love?

[Anchobrie]

On 3/23/2024 at 8:08 PM, billyhill said:

When I discuss the Endangered Species Act with my students, I have what is hopefully, a very serious discussion about the "paupers of love" (Calvin Trilling, IIRC). Who is going to protect those that are not cute, cuddly, majestic, or marketable on a t-shirt or stuffed animal?

 

Calves/veal are cute and cuddly.  Foie gra brings with it a sense of violation people can identify with on some level. There is a lost battalion of other creatures deserving the same consideration, but endangered status/protection of any type is ultimately a political process.

 

What is to become of the paupers of love?

Not sure if I understand you properly, but there are hips of non cute/cuddly, magestic, or marketeable animal species that are protected by law. Including species with the potential to kill us, like some spiders, snakes and so on...