Mulling over my kitchen design

Kahrs · March 27, 2023

After 20 years with the previous owner's kitchen it's my turn. Here are some ideas I've had:

Induction cook top. Separate ovens. Definitely doing this, not sure of brand.
Salamander? Not sure about this: I am wondering about toasting peppers, finish dishes. I have gas, would it be worth it?
Combi oven. Fairly sure about this, sure a Rational would be nice, but I don't have that much money in this design.
Pull-out fridge? Not sure about this: Seems like a source of breakdowns. But having a fridge next to the cooktop would be deluxe.
Separate baking / cooking counters: Different heights, different surfaces. Combi oven is baking, Convection oven is cooking.
Rolling butcher block: Not sure about this.
Pot filler: Definitely, I cook a lot of pasta.
Deep double sink: How deep? Don't know.
Fridge: Frankly, I don't need a huge fridge. But the next owner might/would. Should I leave space for a SubZero and fill in the extra space?

And where is John Talbott these days? I always enjoyed reading his Paris column...

heidih · March 27, 2023

Addressing #4: I don;t like fridge next to hot space - probabkynot logical. Usually set out all prep item and then go

#6 - why? Ease of ingredient transfer? and wheel traffic on your flooring material?

#9: we did a remodel prior to a sale and kept our smallish fridge but the cabinetmaker designed an enclosure of the most common fridge sze with panels that push opened as storage. Sheet pan space on top horizontal and mini vertical space for broom or.

**TdeV** · March 27, 2023

5 minutes ago, Kahrs said:

After 20 years with the previous owner's kitchen it's my turn. Here are some ideas I've had:

6. Rolling butcher block: Not sure about this.

The centre floorspace of my kitchen is approximately 82" x 82" (84" is 7 ft). Simultaneously open oven and dishwasher doors would preclude having a butcher block at all. For two people to move around the space, and open the lower cabinet doors, a butcher block on wheels is the only possibility. When it's in the way, one just gives it a shove.

We have a John Boos mobile butcher block island (30.75 inches wide x 20 inches deep (with a 10" drop leaf, can get two) - stands 35 3/8" tall) with four commercial grade 3" locking wheels. Curiously, in the two years we've had it, I don't think I've ever locked the wheels.

What it's good for:

taking stuff out of the Anova steam oven to check (the APO is on a counter with no nearby space) *
groceries
dishing out servings
preparing 3 or 4 baking trays full of stuff

Absolutely, I vote for this.

* this is by far the most functionally important

palo · March 27, 2023

Some "opinions":

Salamander - I don't know prices of gas but I had a reasonably priced electric

Combi Oven --->APO probably 10 times cheaper and worth the price

Pot filler - relatively cheap and worth it

Just my thoughts

p

Kahrs · March 28, 2023

Oooooh, I forgot: What about a deck oven? Do such things exist for homes?

weinoo · March 28, 2023

15 minutes ago, Kahrs said:

Oooooh, I forgot: What about a deck oven? Do such things exist for homes?

What are your reasons for this? Are you running a catering operation out of your kitchen? I mean, the addition of a baking steel or stone to your oven - doesn't that make it sort of a deck oven?

Also - what are the dimensions of your new kitchen? Sounds like a whole house.

Darienne · March 28, 2023

If I were going to redo our kitchen, one of the things I would go for is a deep "double" sink in which one part was large enough to lay a half sheet down in rather than two equal sized sink which I now have.

gfweb · March 28, 2023

Induction is a matter of taste for me.

Salamander seems very restaurant-y and a space hog. A good counter -top oven would broil well enough for me...eg Breville Smart Oven

Miele makes a built-in steam oven that is less than a Rational in price. I almost bought one.

Fridge sizes seem to morph over t he years...always larger. I'd leave room or have an easily removed molding

weinoo · March 28, 2023

One would think that with all the cooking being planned in this large kitchen, a large-ish refrigerator, as opposed to:

21 hours ago, Kahrs said:

Fridge: Frankly, I don't need a huge fridge.

This. Why the need for this, then?

21 hours ago, Kahrs said:

Deep double sink: How deep? Don't know.

By the way, I have a deep sink - I like it, except it might not be great for someone who isn't too tall, as it will require much more reaching.

AlaMoi · March 28, 2023

there is a long established/existing 'theory' - the 'triangle' of sink / cooktop / refrigerator.

many variations / placements of 'the triangle' - but the basics remain steadfast.

going outside the 'proven' utility could result in less than happy long term results.

higher/lower countertops - splendid idea - but only if one does the "do" of the aforementioned cooking tasks.

if one hand kneads some-to-many-to-dozens of bread loaves/products per week, well worth it. depending on how tall you are . . .

we have done 'house hunting' quite a few times - and we've seen a whole lotta'

"whot? can you believe this?"

situations.

which, btw, and OMG!, applies to many aspects outside 'the kitchen' - but that's another rant . . .

I've lived with a number of kitchen "islands" - I have real serious issues about an island that skids/moves/slips around under my usage.

the idea of "flexibility" sounds great - but if the d*ng thing does not stay still while you are carving up the turkey,,,, that's a problem.

palo · March 28, 2023

36 minutes ago, AlaMoi said:

but if the d*ng thing does not stay still while you are carving up the turkey,,,, that's a problem.

That's not an island, that's a trolley!

p

Darienne · March 28, 2023

1 hour ago, AlaMoi said:

higher/lower countertops - splendid idea - but only if one does the "do" of the aforementioned cooking tasks.

if one hand kneads some-to-many-to-dozens of bread loaves/products per week, well worth it. depending on how tall you are . . .

I have countertops and a marble-topped table at three different heights in my kitchen and trust me I use all of them for different tasks regularly. Wouldn't have it any other way.

blue_dolphin · March 28, 2023

On 3/27/2023 at 12:56 PM, Kahrs said:

6. Rolling butcher block: Not sure about this.

I inherited one from a friend that's about 22 x 22 inches and 33 inches tall. I'm not tall so the shorter height could be handy for some tasks but it's not really big enough for much and I've never had the ideal spot for it. My friend had it at the end of a run of countertop so there was extra space available.

On 3/27/2023 at 12:56 PM, Kahrs said:

7. Pot filler: Definitely, I cook a lot of pasta.

I cook a lot of pasta but have no desire for extra plumbing that can leak and cause water damage. Same reason why I'd prefer a combi oven with a refillable reservoir to a plumbed unit. If the pot filler had an aspirator arm that would drain out the water after cooking, I might change my mind. It's carrying hot pots full of water back to the sink that I don't like.

On 3/27/2023 at 12:56 PM, Kahrs said:

8. Deep double sink: How deep? Don't know.

I have a single-bowl, deep sink in my laundry area. Very handy when I need to soak half-sheet pans and racks. It would kill my back to be bending down to reach the bottom all the time if my kitchen sink were similarly deep. In the kitchen, I have a 60/40 double-bowl sink in the kitchen. The 60% side is deeper and the 40% side is more shallow. I use the small, shallow side the most.

On 3/27/2023 at 12:56 PM, Kahrs said:

9. Fridge: Frankly, I don't need a huge fridge. But the next owner might/would. Should I leave space for a SubZero and fill in the extra space?

If I had the space, I'd want a full size fridge and full size freezer, side-by side. If your space is so large that you can leave room for a larger fridge, I'd do it.

Edited March 28, 2023 by blue_dolphin
typo (log)

heidih · March 28, 2023

Like @blue_dolphin I prefer the laundry sink for large pots and pans. I don't have to worry about looks. Guestes not usually perusing the laundry room. The deep double sinks in kitchen were not my choice. Drying rack stays moist.

heidih · March 28, 2023

What about countertop material, lighting, outlet locations?

**Dave the Cook** · March 28, 2023

A few comments:

Salamander: not a great cost-to-benefit ratio. I'm with @gfweb. A good countertop oven will do.
I'm also with him on the Miele steam oven. We don't have one, but the place where we ran cooking classes sold Miele appliances. I was not a fan of their basic wall ovens, but the steam oven was pretty impressive. Frankly, I'd be concerned about getting home service for a Rational oven, anyway.
Rolling butcher block: I quote @Fat Guy from my first topic on kitchen renovation. I think it's still true: "I'm negative on anything on casters or anything that swings up or out. If you're a high-impact cook those types of things just aren't stable. People will swear up and down that they are -- they have this special kind of locking caster or this one is really much more stable than the norm -- but if you pound and hammer like a restaurant cook you'll wreck those pieces pretty quickly."
Pot filler: I would never install a water source that wasn't over a drain. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like an accident waiting to happen. If necessary, get an extra-long hose on your sink faucet or spray head, and make sure it retracts properly.
Fridge: In my experience, your refrigeration needs will expand to fill your refrigerator. As for thinking ahead, you'll find a number of members here who have SubZero refrigeration and are happy with it. I can only say that I've known several people IRL who owned SZ. Not one of them was happy about it. They a) are expensive to the point of embarrassment; 2) may be large on the outside, but they're pretty small on the inside; 3) are unreliable; 4) are expensive to repair, when you can get someone to service them.

As for layout, the work triangle is one good theory, but it often can't be applied, or won't fit, or doesn't easily adapt to your work habits, plumbing or electrical layout. Think about it, but being dogmatic doesn't necessarily pay off.

Slim W · March 29, 2023

I used to own a Miele combination steam oven. They are great as a 2nd oven, well engineered (like most Miele products), easy to use and I had it 6 years with zero issues. My only complaint was the max temperature of 225C/437F. I found it a bit low for some breads, had more consistent results with the Lodge Combo Dutch Oven in a conventional oven 290C/550F. I have used the Anova Precision Oven (max 480F?) and personally I would get that if I had the counter space.

On the fridge, is there such a thing as too much fridge space? 🤣

Darienne · March 29, 2023

On 3/27/2023 at 3:56 PM, Kahrs said:

Rolling butcher block: Not sure about this.

I have a rolling butcher block but it lives in the dining room normally. I have both a huge stand mixer and an ICE (whatever the designation) ice cream maker and a bread machine in a dining room buffet and they are too heavy to carry with impunity and not used regularly either and a kitchen we designed before I 'discovered' cooking.

5 hours ago, Slim W said:

On the fridge, is there such a thing as too much fridge space? 🤣

As to fridges...this is a current pet peeve. We exchanged our slowly dying old kitchen fridge for the much newer and fancier and so wonderful looking piece of useless &^$%# which we bought second hand last summer when our garage fridge finally died. It was so pleasing that I thought...wow! Let's exchange the old kitchen fridge for this new fridge. How wonderful! And so Ed did. (Pre-vertebrae fracturing...)

And that was before I actually worked out the space in the wretched thing. Huge freezer which I don't need and don't want. And a fridge full of cutesy useless plastic container shelves and bins which now mean that so many regular food items are now living in the garage fridge (our old fridge) and I hate going into the cold dirty garage constantly. Sorry I know this is not 'my' topic and I am crabbing....

If one cooks from scratch all the time, and we do, the new fridges do not have enough interior usable space.

rotuts · March 29, 2023

@Kahrs

consider your kitchens corners.

years ago I went to Home depot and got the ' medium ' grade

kitchen cabinets . they are fine. also w sliding ' trays ' in most

lower cabinets.

I have a window very near a wall , and that was over the sink.

HD suggested that corner have a sink ( that's where the pipes are )

but the sink was turned 45 degrees. ie it faces the corner , but right by the window

it gave me elbow room both L and R of the sink , and to the L

where there would have been nothing if parallel to the window

and bit of counter space ( not that much , but useful doing the dishes )

and a narrow cabinet below that holds cutting boards and wire cooling racks

this made a big difference .

hope you get the idea .

best of luck !

gfweb · March 29, 2023

17 minutes ago, Darienne said:

I have a rolling butcher block but it lives in the dining room normally. I have both a huge stand mixer and an ICE (whatever the designation) ice cream maker and a bread machine in a dining room buffet and they are too heavy to carry with impunity and not used regularly either and a kitchen we designed before I 'discovered' cooking.

As to fridges...this is a current pet peeve. We exchanged our slowly dying old kitchen fridge for the much newer and fancier and so wonderful looking piece of useless &^$%# which we bought second hand last summer when our garage fridge finally died. It was so pleasing that I thought...wow! Let's exchange the old kitchen fridge for this new fridge. How wonderful! And so Ed did. (Pre-vertebrae fracturing...)

And that was before I actually worked out the space in the wretched thing. Huge freezer which I don't need and don't want. And a fridge full of cutesy useless plastic container shelves and bins which now mean that so many regular food items are now living in the garage fridge (our old fridge) and I hate going into the cold dirty garage constantly. Sorry I know this is not 'my' topic and I am crabbing....

If one cooks from scratch all the time, and we do, the new fridges do not have enough interior usable space.

And I'd add that new fridges have too much electronic crap. My fridge doesn't need wifi or an e-shopping list.

Engineers and marketers run amok.

rotuts · March 29, 2023

P.S.: Ive seen kitchens where the stove was in a corner

but at 45 degrees

again , counter top both L and R of the stove were at

45 degrees to the stove , and not in line

have no idea is the stove had to be at that place for other reasons .

45 degree stuff at the corners is very nice , and doesn't take up that

much additional floor space.

also , ' pull ' your counters aways from the wall

rather than standard , this gives you much more counter space

and get a splash guard all round your counter

3 " is very nice, and oddly costing more than you think

but well worth it . my counters are corian , so the splash guards are

integral to the countertop

ie made in one piece

if marble , the splash guard is glued to the countertop.

Edited March 29, 2023 by rotuts (log)

chromedome · March 29, 2023

My massive Samsung (36" wide, and 28 cubic feet IIRC) is just barely big enough for my household, which - in fairness - includes my stepdaughter's family plus us, so 6 in total. Like Darienne I'd be fine with less freezer space and more refrigerator space, though I have a standup freezer, a full-sized chest freezer and a smaller chest freezer so I'm admittedly something of an outlier. Many manufacturers now make models that split the lower compartment to give you a "flex" option: at your discretion you can set either half (sometimes both) to be refrigerator space rather than freezer space.

I got mine used in like-new condition for only $150, though, so I'm not complaining (and the look on the guy's face when I showed up to in a minivan to collect it was worth the price of admission, all on its own).

rotuts · March 29, 2023

re : your refrigerator :

TV in your refrigerator's door ? Ha ha ha

Ice maker , w cold water tap ? this seems standard at a sort of level

then your refrigerator has to be plumbed in

and you might want to check how much space the ice maker takes

away from your freezer

I still remember how to make ice , and I have a bottle of cold tap water

inside , on the door area , next to the Whine !

Darienne · March 29, 2023

1 hour ago, chromedome said:

My massive Samsung (36" wide, and 28 cubic feet IIRC) is just barely big enough for my household, which - in fairness - includes my stepdaughter's family plus us, so 6 in total. Like Darienne I'd be fine with less freezer space and more refrigerator space, though I have a standup freezer, a full-sized chest freezer and a smaller chest freezer so I'm admittedly something of an outlier. Many manufacturers now make models that split the lower compartment to give you a "flex" option: at your discretion you can set either half (sometimes both) to be refrigerator space rather than freezer space.

I got mine used in like-new condition for only $150, though, so I'm not complaining (and the look on the guy's face when I showed up to in a minivan to collect it was worth the price of admission, all on its own).

Speaking of freezers...we have the large freezer part of the 'new' to us horrible kitchen fridge, and two chest freezers (garage freezer = dog meat and quick freeze of people dishes; cellar freezer = people food only) the cellar one dating back to the 1970s. This morning I was searching for something in the cellar freezer and emptied the entire *&%)( thing and never found it and was fairly irked (certifiably deranged I fear) by the entire process which I have endured since the 70s. Apparently a new upright freezer will set us back around $1,700.00. Could there be such a thing as a second-hand upright?

Edited March 29, 2023 by Darienne (log)

Margaret Pilgrim · March 29, 2023

1 hour ago, gfweb said:

And I'd add that new fridges have too much electronic crap. My fridge doesn't need wifi or an e-shopping list.

Engineers and marketers run amok.

Amen. And it's always fun to track down the various beeps. Is it the fridge? Door ajar? Someone accidentally hit the bottle chill button? It's the Cuisinart oven? Preheat is complete? OI bake time is complete? Or, it's battery alert of one of a half dozen smoke detectors on several levels?

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