What in the world did I do wrong NOW???

[Kim Shook]

Brazilian Cheese Bread Rolls

 

A good friend, who is also an awesome cook, gave me the recipe that she uses for these.  She is a serious home cook who belongs here with us.  Add to that that the recipe is an America’s Test Kitchen recipe and, say what you will about them, I’ve always found their recipes dependable.  My problems began with making the batter.  They call it a batter and my friend says hers is a pourable batter.  Mine was more like dough – almost like cooky dough – I could actually pick up a bit and make a ball in my hand.  I was able to scoop up the dough with one of those ice cream scoop-type things instead of “pouring”:

 

Baked and out of the pan:

 

The inside texture:

 

I should say upfront that I used Cassava flour, not tapioca flour.  The recipe calls for the tapioca flour.   I could not find the tapioca and the research I did said that I could sub the cassava for tapioca. 

 

My friend says that they should be crunchy on the outside with a puffy/chewy center – which agrees with what ATK says in their notes.  I would SO appreciate it if y’all would take a look at the recipe for me and see where you think I might have gone wrong, based on the results I got.  I’ve put the ingredients as they are published but used my own words for the directions.  I think that is what is allowed:

 

8 oz. tapioca starch – I subbed in cassava flour, as I said above.

4 oz. extra-sharp Cheddar, shredded

2 oz. Parm, grated

2/3 c. whole milk

1/3 c. olive oil

2 large eggs

1 t. salt

 

Spray a 24 cup mini muffin pan with cooking spray.  Dump everything into a blender (mine is a Vitamix – so is my friend’s) and blend until smooth for about a minute.  Pour into the muffin cups.  Bake at 375 for 17-20 minutes until puffed and golden.  Cool 3 minutes and then turn out of pan. 

 

Thank you SO much!  

[chromedome]

I'm no GF maven, but tapioca flour is a purified starch and cassava flour is the whole root (the same root, mind you) dried and powdered. It's basically the difference between potato starch and instant potatoes.

I'm guessing the fiber makes it more absorbent, and is the reason you had a stodgy consistency. Cutting back a bit on the flour probably would have given you a better result, though I'll stress once more that this is not drawn from a lot of hands-on GF baking experience.

[ElsieD]

https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2017/12/south-american-cheesy-bread-recipe.html

 

This is the one I made.  I don't see any leavening in your recipe?

[weinoo]

Yes, if it's a quick bread/muffin, doesn't it need leavening?

[weinoo]

After looking at a bunch of recipes, I guess it doesn't really need leavening other than the eggs.

 

I'd say try it again with the proper ingredients (i.e. no substitutes).

[andiesenji]

1 hour ago, weinoo said:

After looking at a bunch of recipes, I guess it doesn't really need leavening other than the eggs.

 

I'd say try it again with the proper ingredients (i.e. no substitutes).

There's no leavening in the recipe I make. The dough is really sticky and it does not "pour"  I wet my hands, scoop out a golf-ball sized portion, for a ball and drop it into the oiled cup. They should puff and get a bit crusty on the outside and look "spotty" where the cheese erupts to the surface.  I've only used Tapioca flour.

[Maison Rustique]

I recently made a bread recipe with the opposite results! It was supposed to be bread dough and looked like that initially, but by the time it has gone through the second rise, it had turned into a batter. I hadn't added anything and can't for the life of me figure out what went wrong. It was a rainy day--can the humidity work its way in and turn dough to batter? Maybe gremlins were at work and they switched your batter with my dough!!

[weinoo]

Humidity and gremlins can definitely affect doughs!

[Kim Shook]

No leavening.  And I'm sure of that because she sent me a copy of the actual page in the cookbook.  So, it seems that even though the internet promised I could sub the cassava flour for the tapioca flour, it lied. 😄  So, I'm going to see if Amazon can get me some tapioca since I can't seem to find any in the stores.  I'm hoping that will work.  Thank you all so much!

[blue_dolphin]

I've only purchased a frozen take & bake version so I'm no help.  Over here, in another thread, @jedovaty mentioned making and loving pão de queijo and might be able to offer suggestions. 

[Shelby]

How timely.  I just made them a couple months ago using this recipe.  I'm sure I would have posted about them somewhere around here.  I was able to the tapioca flour from amazon, but that was before the plague.  I really really liked them.  Even good reheated the next day.  

[Shelby]

Found my pictures.  You can kind of see the inside on the far left of the last picture.

 

[Kim Shook]

@blue_dolphin - thank you!  How about it, @jedovaty?  Want to chime in?  I'd love it if you would.

 

@Shelby - yep - very similar to the one my friend sent me.  I really am more and more sure it is the damn cassava flour! 😊

[Shelby]

1 minute ago, Kim Shook said:

it is the damn cassava flour

I agree.

[heidih]

5 minutes ago, Kim Shook said:

 - yep - very similar to the one my friend sent me.  I really am more and more sure it is the damn cassava flour! 😊

 

Cassava is one of those things where learning at grand-mere's side is helpful. 

[kayb]

I tried these once, early on in the gluten-free days. Mine were not good. The texture looked like yours, but they were grainy to the bite. I think the recipe I used called for rice and tapioca flours.

 

Good luck!

 

[jedovaty]

What @chromedome said is correct, in this case, you cannot sub cassava flour and tapioca.  Think of it like cornmeal and cornstarch.

 

These things were life changing for me, but many people I know are like "meh".  So, YMMV, and sorry this is so long but I am passionate about these (one of my favorites!).  What I do, is actually kind of similar to @Kim Shook's recipe in her original post above.  I mostly use this recipe, converted to cups and a lot more cheeeese:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H3-wryqcpk

 - 200g sour starch or tapioca starch

 - 1 cup milk

 - 2T fat (butter, oil, duck, whatever)

 - 1 egg (if this is too dry, try with 2 eggs, I prefer 1 egg, going back through my notes)

 - 1/2-1c hard cheese

 - optional salt -- I like these salty, I think I add 1-2t salt

Bring milk and fat to a boil, immediately pour over starch and hit it with the hand mixer + beater attachments.  It will clump up and turn into a "fluff"**, and don't fret if it runs up the beaters.  If it's a runny mess, then you didn't get the milk hot enough.  It'll still turn out okay, but texture will end up being more like mochi.

Let this cool, then beat in the eggs, and once incorporated, mix in the cheese.  I shape these into small balls using wet hands (keep the tap running to help), then freeze.  Try baking different temps ranging 350-425F, I always forget  

My way TMI comments for anyone that may find this helpful, I used to make these monthly during my wheat-free phase and am just excited to be able to contribute something to this place where I've learned so much:

Many recipes will tell you you can mix this by hand.  Anyone throwing off fleeting romances off this, stop right there, it's way harder than trying to whip your own whip cream by hand. 

 

Don't dilly-dally with the milk->starch->beater.  You have to get the starch to gelatinize with the hot milk to get the "authentic" texture of these, that's more bread like.

 

OKay to be heavy handed with the cheese, or lighter, all good  

 

Cheese is historically and authentically green kraft parmesan, but I've used all sorts, grated, shredded, parmesan, pecorino, asiago, mix them up, use irregular sizes, etc.

 

There are dozens of variations, some people will make more of a runny batter, or add flour.  Others don't heat the milk with the starch, etc.  This will make more of what you find at the brazilian BBQ restaurants.  They are all delicious and tasty.   If you don't boil the milk, your buns end up more like chewy mochi rice cakes, or gummy tapoica balls in those drinks.  That's fine, some like it, but I also enjoy a more fluffy-bread like cheese flavor bomb.

 

People who make more of a batter use the cupcake tins.  I see @Kim Shook's recipe does, too, and that's okay   I just like having these for later so I make balls and freeze them.  They are amazing with espresso, and dressed with a little butter and honey.

 

You can sub buttermilk for milk at 1:1, and I have used a bit of yogurt as well in the past, but I forget how much.  These things are pretty forgiving when it comes to proportions, as long as you have the liquid boiling.

 

Finally, if you get sour starch, there are two brands predominantly in the US: Amafil and Yoki.  I get better results with Yoki.  Apparently, they can be bought in the hispanic markets, and I live/work in heavy hispanic DMA of so-cal and have yet to see them in any stores, only Amazon purchases for me.  Be careful, this stuff STINKS REALLY BAD.  But don't worry, this umami-filled vomit-poo aroma dissipates into an amazing cheese ball.  Actually as gross as the smell is, you kind of want to keep sniffing it.  Very strange!

 

Hope this was helpful, enjoy   Again, apologies this was so long.  I may have mentioned I really really really like these! 🤪

Edited May 6, 2020 by jedovaty (log)

[jedovaty]

Oh... one more thing! Cassava flour is amazing stuff.  Make tortillas with it, using baker's math, do 80% hydration + 20% fat.  So, 100g cassava flour, 80g water, 20g fat (duck, coconut, lard, butter, olive oil, ghee, etc).  Or.. was it 60% hydration plus 20% fat?  I forget, sorry.  But I think both should work.  Mix up, let rest a little wrapped in plastic, divide, smush out, roll on parchment, and dry-fry for some amazingly decadent tortillas.  It helps if the liquid/fat is heated to HOT or even boiling, but not necessary.  Be careful, cassava is extremely calorie rich... 🤤

Edited May 6, 2020 by jedovaty (log)

[Kim Shook]

2 hours ago, jedovaty said:

What @chromedome said is correct, in this case, you cannot sub cassava flour and tapioca.  Think of it like cornmeal and cornstarch.

 

These things were life changing for me, but many people I know are like "meh".  So, YMMV, and sorry this is so long but I am passionate about these (one of my favorites!).  What I do, is actually kind of similar to @Kim Shook's recipe in her original post above:

 - 200g sour starch or tapioca starch

 - 1 cup milk

 - 2T fat (butter, oil, duck, whatever)

 - 2 eggs

 - 1/2-1c hard cheese

 - optional salt -- I like these salty, I think I add 1-2t salt

Bring milk and fat to a boil, immediately pour over starch and hit it with the hand mixer + beater attachments.  It will clump up and turn into a "fluff"**, and don't fret if it runs up the beaters.  If it's a runny mess, then you didn't get the milk hot enough.  It'll still turn out okay, but texture will end up being more like mochi.

Let this cool, then beat in the eggs, and once incorporated, mix in the cheese.  I shape these into small balls using wet hands (keep the tap running to help), then freeze.  Try baking different temps ranging 350-425F, I always forget  

 

The above is loosely based on this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H3-wryqcpk

 

A few comments for anyone that may find this helpful, I used to make these monthly during my wheat-free phase:

Many recipes will tell you you can mix this by hand.  Anyone throwing off fleeting romances off this, stop right there, it's way harder than trying to whip your own whip cream by hand. 

 

Don't dilly-dally with the milk->starch->beater.  You have to get the starch to gelatinize with the hot milk to get the "authentic" texture of these, that's more bread like.

 

OKay to be heavy handed with the cheese, or lighter, all good  

 

Cheese is historically and authentically green kraft parmesan, but I've used all sorts, grated, shredded, parmesan, pecorino, asiago, mix them up, use irregular sizes, etc.

 

There are dozens of variations, some people will make more of a runny batter, or add flour.  Others don't heat the milk with the starch, etc.  This will make more of what you find at the brazilian BBQ restaurants.  They are all delicious and tasty.   If you don't boil the milk, your buns end up more like chewy mochi rice cakes, or gummy tapoica balls in those drinks.  That's fine, some like it, but I also enjoy a more fluffy-bread like cheese flavor bomb.

 

People who make more of a batter use the cupcake tins.  I see @Kim Shook's recipe does, too, and that's okay   I just like having these for later so I make balls and freeze them.  They are amazing with espresso, and dressed with a little butter and honey.

 

You can sub buttermilk for milk at 1:1, and I have used a bit of yogurt as well in the past, but I forget how much.  These things are pretty forgiving when it comes to proportions, as long as you have the liquid boiling.

 

Finally, if you get sour starch, there are two brands predominantly in the US: Amafil and Yoki.  I get better results with Yoki.  Apparently, they can be bought in the hispanic markets, and I live/work in heavy hispanic DMA of so-cal and have yet to see them in any stores, only Amazon purchases for me.  Be careful, this stuff STINKS REALLY BAD.  But don't worry, this umami-filled vomit-poo aroma dissipates into an amazing cheese ball.  Actually as gross as the smell is, you kind of want to keep sniffing it.  Very strange!

 

Hope this was helpful, enjoy   Again, apologies this was so long.  I may have mentioned I really really really like these! 🤪

Thank you so much!  I'll be keeping this info with my recipe for my next try!  

[jedovaty]

1 hour ago, Kim Shook said:

Thank you so much!  I'll be keeping this info with my recipe for my next try!  

Happy to help, but note the eggs.. I originally put 2 eggs, it's what I had in memory, but I'm pretty sure it should be 1 for 200g after rewatching the video.  If that's too dry the first time, then use 2 next time

[andiesenji]

I used Bob's Red Mill Tapioca flour-fine ground.   I originally got it to make Brazilian Tapioca flour crepes, which were exceptional.

 

[jedovaty]

In case anyone this helps anyone:

 - Cassava flour is the flour from the cassava root
 - Tapioca flour is the same thing as tapioca starch is the same thing as cassava starch; all are derived from the cassava root, they are the extracted starch from cassava
 - Manioc is also from cassava, however, it's somewhat unclear to me whether "flour" is actually cassava flour or tapioca starch, or the fermented starch, the terms seems to vary depending what country and even region recipes you read

[Okanagancook]

Looking at the nutrition information:

 

Tapioca flour has per 100 grams:  no fibre, 22 grams carbs; 2 grams of protein and has 33% less potassium

Casava flour has per 100 grams:  1.8 grams fibre; 38 grams carbs; 1.4 grams protein.

 

I am not a baker so can only hit the 'sad' button

[Kim Shook]

54 minutes ago, Okanagancook said:

Looking at the nutrition information:

 

Tapioca flour has per 100 grams:  no fibre, 22 grams carbs; 2 grams of protein and has 33% less potassium

Casava flour has per 100 grams:  1.8 grams fibre; 38 grams carbs; 1.4 grams protein.

 

I am not a baker so can only hit the 'sad' button

Wow!  The low potassium and fiber in tapioca flour is good for me.  My potassium was so high the last time I had a blood test, they sent me to the ER in an ambulance!  (I'm ok - ER doctor said it wasn't quite as high as the lab at my primary's office got). Now, I just need to figure out how to use it in more than these bread rolls!  Thanks for the information.  

[jedovaty]

Now compare cassava flour with all purpose or bread flour