Making a Melty Cheese Sauce Without using Sodium Citrate

[FeChef]

Anyone ever try using a food service higher end brand of mild cheddar cheese sauce instead of milk and sodium citrate? I have sodium citrate but for some reason i am just not a fan of it. There are some great mild cheddar cheese sauces out there that are pretty decent like Rico's aged cheddar (not sharp cheddar, and not to be confused with nacho cheese sauce) It does make good mac and chese on its own ( better then that box velveeta shells, yuck) And it stays creamy even when cold. But i am looking to kick it up a notch with maybe some gouda or gruyere, just not sure how to approach a balance. Looking for some advice and a recipe if you have one. I couldn't find one.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

2 hours ago, FeChef said:

Anyone ever try using a food service higher end brand of mild cheddar cheese sauce instead of milk and sodium citrate? I have sodium citrate but for some reason i am just not a fan of it. There are some great mild cheddar cheese sauces out there that are pretty decent like Rico's aged cheddar (not sharp cheddar, and not to be confused with nacho cheese sauce) It does make good mac and chese on its own ( better then that box velveeta shells, yuck) And it stays creamy even when cold. But i am looking to kick it up a notch with maybe some gouda or gruyere, just not sure how to approach a balance. Looking for some advice and a recipe if you have one. I couldn't find one.

 

I have yet to try sodium citrate.  What bad results did you have with it?

 

[FeChef]

5 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I have yet to try sodium citrate.  What bad results did you have with it?

 

To me it always had a tangy aftertaste. Ive tried cutting back on the amounts but then i wouldnt get the right consistency. I am sure there could have been other variables like the first few times i realized i just don't like sharp cheddar (except by itself with a good spicy brown mustard). 

[chromedome]

2 minutes ago, FeChef said:

To me it always had a tangy aftertaste. Ive tried cutting back on the amounts but then i wouldnt get the right consistency. I am sure there could have been other variables like the first few times i realized i just don't like sharp cheddar (except by itself with a good spicy brown mustard). 

To my taste a slight tang is the sine qua non of a good cheese sauce. I'll use buttermilk or yogurt to get it if the cheese isn't sharp/tangy enough.

 

Of course, as I've said before, it's our differences that keep life interesting.

[Tri2Cook]

Ideas In Food uses evaporated milk in their version with no melting salts. They say it contains enough of the requisite stabilizers to do the job on it's own. I've tried it and it does indeed work for sauces but it also tastes like what it is... made with evap milk. I wasn't a fan and I like evap milk. It gave an illusion of being overly sweet. Or maybe it's not an illusion, I've never actually checked the sugar concentration of evaporated milk. Regardless, the recipe is available of Serious Eats. Just type ideas in food mac and cheese in Google and it comes up.

[MokaPot]

Recently came across this video from Kenji Lopez-Alt / Food Lab for 3-ingredient mac & cheese using Carnation evaporated milk (like @Tri2Cook mentioned).

 

 

Video is maybe hard to watch because the camera seems to be mounted on his head, seriously. But it looks easy and maybe worth a try.

 

I've heard that citric acid mutes the flavor of the cheese, e.g., reduces sharpness of cheddar.

[jimb0]

On 5/2/2020 at 6:59 AM, FeChef said:

To me it always had a tangy aftertaste. Ive tried cutting back on the amounts but then i wouldnt get the right consistency. I am sure there could have been other variables like the first few times i realized i just don't like sharp cheddar (except by itself with a good spicy brown mustard). 

 

I'm a big fan of sodium citrate, but if you're finding it not to your taste, consider using multiple stabilizers. Use half the amount of sodium citrate, say (I tend to use ~ 20g per pound of cheese if I recall correctly), and a little bit of corn starch, maybe some evaporated milk. Personally I don't care for the evaporated milk sauce, at least not in the quantities used (I find it too sweet).

 

I actually don't care for the texture of modernist cheese sauce in mac and cheese, so I often add a starch to it. It gives more of a traditional texture without the grainy roux.

[jedovaty]

With a name like FeChef, you've probably already considered adding a slice or two of processed cheese to the sauce?  I'm presenting this in the unlikely event you hadn't already heard of it.  If you've tried it, I'd be curious to hear your impression.  I haven't tried it, but read it works similar to, if not just like, sodium citrate.  Discerning palatte might taste it, though?  I should try.  Guilty pleasure of mine, don't judge me, I prefer american cheese on burgers... 😶 

 

On 5/7/2020 at 6:28 PM, jimb0 said:

I actually don't care for the texture of modernist cheese sauce in mac and cheese, so I often add a starch to it. It gives more of a traditional texture without the grainy roux.

I've been largely unsuccessful with smooth cheese sauces, probably because I'm making them wrong.  My statement here isn't to look for a way to fix this and I'll try again some other day, but rather, let's focus on why does a roux make the sauce grainy?  I've not understood that, the science behind it.  Actually.. now that I think of it.. a creme pat made with flour IS grainy.. WOAH.  🤯  Rambling: when I made creme pat a few times for eclairs and choux, I thought to myself, this is exactly like pudding (americanski definition, not british), but uses flour instead of cornstarch.  I was disappointed by the texture everytime...!

Edited May 9, 2020 by jedovaty (log)

[chromedome]

Have you tried with a pre-gelatinized flour like Wondra? Haven't done so myself, but it might make a difference. Especially if the roux isn't getting cooked out for 20-ish minutes before assembling the sauce.

[gfweb]

2 minutes ago, chromedome said:

Have you tried with a pre-gelatinized flour like Wondra? Haven't done so myself, but it might make a difference. Especially if the roux isn't getting cooked out for 20-ish minutes before assembling the sauce.

 

I have used wondra in a mac and cheese sauce.  Not grainy, works fine.

[lemniscate]

I wonder if adding a touch of sweetener at the end of the heating process would tame the tang.   

[jimb0]

I think people may be getting caught up my calling a roux sauce grainy. When I say that, I mean it’s a fundamental property of those cheese sauces. They’re all grainy in comparison to something made using other emulsifiers. Even the best roux-based cheese sauce isn’t that smooth. Most of the time, like in baked pasta dish, it’s totally fine. I just don’t care for them outside of that specific use. 
 

The texture doesn’t seem to bother me in something like a creme pat. 

Edited May 9, 2020 by jimb0 (log)

[kayb]

I never thought of it as particularly a cheese sauce, but it is. When I make mac and cheese, I boil and drain the pasta then add butter, grated cheddar (about 4 ounces), cubed Velveeta (about 2 ounces), and either whole milk or half-and-half until it's the consistency I want it. Could you make cheese sauce the same way? Velveeta works better than standard American cheese from the deli. I guess it's all the added-in chemicals, one of which may well be sodium citrate.

 

Never use a flour in mine. Just let the heat of the pasta melt all the cheese, with an assist over low heat if needed.

 

[jimb0]

2 hours ago, kayb said:

I never thought of it as particularly a cheese sauce, but it is. When I make mac and cheese, I boil and drain the pasta then add butter, grated cheddar (about 4 ounces), cubed Velveeta (about 2 ounces), and either whole milk or half-and-half until it's the consistency I want it. Could you make cheese sauce the same way? Velveeta works better than standard American cheese from the deli. I guess it's all the added-in chemicals, one of which may well be sodium citrate.

 

Never use a flour in mine. Just let the heat of the pasta melt all the cheese, with an assist over low heat if needed.

 

Yes. What is popularly called modernist cheese / sauce is really making your own velveeta.

Edited May 9, 2020 by jimb0 (log)

[kayb]

There are two things in this world for which Velveeta is essential: mac and cheese, and pimiento cheese (again a 2:1 combo with cheddar). Fortunately, it lasts forever in the fridge, so you can keep it around until you're ready to make one of those again.

 

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I have posted this many times on eG but here goes one more.    In order to mimic sodium citrate, just add a teaspoon GOOD white vinegar to your sauce at the point when you are trying to melt the cheese.    Voila.     Done.     No graininess regardless of the cheese you use.     

 

My logic, the point of sodium citrate is salt and acid.    I think that most cheese has enough salt, so I just add a little acid.    

[FeChef]

On 5/9/2020 at 9:22 AM, jedovaty said:

With a name like FeChef, you've probably already considered adding a slice or two of processed cheese to the sauce?  I'm presenting this in the unlikely event you hadn't already heard of it.  If you've tried it, I'd be curious to hear your impression.  I haven't tried it, but read it works similar to, if not just like, sodium citrate.  Discerning palatte might taste it, though?  I should try.  Guilty pleasure of mine, don't judge me, I prefer american cheese on burgers... 😶 

 

 

 

Well, as ive mentioned in my original post was that i was considering using a foodservice cheese sauce as a base, which is basicly the same as processed cheese slices. I just don't know what amounts i should use with other cheses like gouda, gruyere and other melty cheeses.

Btw, i prefer boars head yellow american cheese on my burgers too. 

[jedovaty]

14 minutes ago, FeChef said:

Well, as ive mentioned in my original post was that i was considering using a foodservice cheese sauce as a base, which is basicly the same as processed cheese slices.

I did not know that, thank you

 

17 hours ago, Margaret Pilgrim said:

I have posted this many times on eG but here goes one more.    In order to mimic sodium citrate, just add a teaspoon GOOD white vinegar to your sauce at the point when you are trying to melt the cheese.

I will try it next time I give mac n cheese a go

[btbyrd]

23 hours ago, Margaret Pilgrim said:

I have posted this many times on eG but here goes one more.    In order to mimic sodium citrate, just add a teaspoon GOOD white vinegar to your sauce at the point when you are trying to melt the cheese.    Voila.     Done.     No graininess regardless of the cheese you use.     

 

My logic, the point of sodium citrate is salt and acid.    I think that most cheese has enough salt, so I just add a little acid.    

 

That's not really how sodium citrate works. The point isn't to add salt or acid but rather to swap out calcium ions for sodium ions, making casein proteins become less strongly bonded and more water soluble. Adding vinegar or NaCl won't do anything in this regard. Sodium citrate is also a pH buffer, so it actually tends to increase the pH of cheese, improving its texture. As per ChefSteps, melting salts "tend to shift the pH upward, which improves the texture and stability of molten cheese. Overly acidic melted cheese is unstable, with an unpleasant texture, so experienced cheese processors target a pH between 5.2 and 6.3 for the best results." 

Edited May 10, 2020 by btbyrd (log)

[FeChef]

I decided to give sodium citrate another try. I made a seafood mac and cheese with 3/4 cup al dente elbow macaroni, 1/4 cup bay scallops, 1/4 cup langustino lobster tails, 1/4 cup super lump crab meat, 120g shredded Gouda, 132g milk, and 5g sodium citrate. Served in a french onion soup crock, topped with some shredded colby jack, cooked in the oven for 30 min until the cheese melts and starts to brown. Sorry no pics. It was my wifes motherdays day  dinner and she  ate the entire crock before she even thought to take a pic.

 

Anyway, using all gouda and no cheddar seems to cut back on the sour taste completely. Maybe the sweetness in the Milk helped as well. I think i always used water before.