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Why don't you have a chamber vac?

Sargun

By Sargun
in Kitchen Consumer

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andrewk512

andrewk512

Posted
Posted (edited)

Wow, another game changer by Anova! Looks beautiful too. I'd get this if I didn't already have the polyscience chamber vac. I think at that price point a dry pump is fully sufficient. I do wish I had chosen an oil pump to take things to the next level, but one of the barriers for me when buying was the /perceived/ technical challenges of managing an oil pump (of course I now see how easy things are). I think the convenience will be a good marketing point to many hobbyists and the type of people who buy Anova products.

 

Edit: they seem to suggest and actually recommend cooling bread with the dry pump?? This was one of the reasons I wanted an oil pump, I thought it would wreck a dry pump from the moisture. Does anyone know the technicalities of this? Was I mistaken or maybe Anova has some sort of special adaptation to enable this?

Edited by andrewk512 (log)
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gfweb

gfweb

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, cdh said:

Why the hard line on an oil pump?  The Anova touts a "maintenance free dry pump", and a 2 year warranty. Do dry pumps die at 2 years and oil pumps need a top up?  A look at eBay tells me China has got chamber vacs in  the production queue.  Some coming in in at less than $350.  The Anova looks more controlled, with the ability to follow steps rather than just pump and stop.  Is there really an added benefit to that? And is the microcontroller going to be a point of failure?  I kinda doubt it.

In other units dry pumps have been failure prone, but in over 2 yrs is my impression. Perhaps anova has a better one. Or perhaps they figure they can just give you  new unit if it fails in <2 yrs.

 

But 350 is a lot if it is failure prone. I can see treating an $80 sav-a-meal as disposable after a few years, but not if its $350.

 

But perhaps because anova doesn't do Walmart and target they can put in good parts without chiseling on quality.

Edited by gfweb (log)
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btbyrd

btbyrd

Posted
Posted (edited)

I’ve had a dry pump chamber vac (a Vacmaster VP-112) for 8 years and it’s still going strong. I haven’t heard of dry pump Vacmasters having a high failure rate, or heard bad stories about other similar units from a reputable brand. Good dry pump units are good enough for home use. Oil is nice but not necessary unless doing high volumes. 

Edited by btbyrd (log)
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palo

palo

Posted
Posted

I have a Vacmaster VP-112 with no problems for around the same length of time - but if I didn't I'd go for the Anova - price, size and weight!

 

p

  • Like 1
btbyrd

btbyrd

Posted
Posted

I don’t know… the chamber size on the Anova seems mighty small. Most of the photos and videos are of it sealing a single chicken breast. I’d want to hear more about real world capacity before I pulled the trigger on one.

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kayb

kayb

Posted
Posted

Mark me down with the people who (a) don't have counter space to hold a chamber vac, and (b) are happy enough with their seal-a-meal.

 

Don't ask. Eat it.

www.kayatthekeyboard.wordpress.com

cdh

cdh

Posted
Posted

Nice to hear positive testimony from folks who have had good experiences with dry pumps over long periods of time. That is reassuring. 

The chamber dimensions they advertise are the size of a manila envelop, ~11x12 which is plenty of space in the x and y axes.  Z, on the other hand is only 3 inches tall. That means that sealing a couple of thick cut steaks is about as much as it can handle. And forget dropping a canning jar in there to seal something into it.  But is that something that people regularly do with a chamber vac?  Sealing a whole roast would not be doable... but how often would I want to do that?  

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Christopher D. Holst aka "cdh"

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gfweb

gfweb

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, cdh said:

Nice to hear positive testimony from folks who have had good experiences with dry pumps over long periods of time. That is reassuring. 

The chamber dimensions they advertise are the size of a manila envelop, ~11x12 which is plenty of space in the x and y axes.  Z, on the other hand is only 3 inches tall. That means that sealing a couple of thick cut steaks is about as much as it can handle. And forget dropping a canning jar in there to seal something into it.  But is that something that people regularly do with a chamber vac?  Sealing a whole roast would not be doable... but how often would I want to do that?  

 

Being able to do a jar in the vac is one of the things that, to me, is part of the value of the chamber vac.

What else does it do that  the smaller units can't?

rotuts

rotuts

Posted
Posted

i became interested in SV quiet one time ago

 

I even did a bit of research and got " UnderPressure "

 

fortunately used , not expensive , and still in its wrapper ...

 

that  book didn't help , but 

 

I decided FoodSaver was not what i wanted to start with.

 

I try , if I can , to get ' hardware ' one step up from what seems 

 

will get the job done , as I wasn't going to ge another

 

I got the Weston , and i think it was about 350 or so.

 

I loved it and used it often.   eventually the dry pump gave out

 

and I had to ship it back for repair.   that was pricey 

 

Weston , on their own , replaced the gaskets , that were working fine

 

and for some reason these never set correctly and it was difficult to

 

get a seal.   after This and That

 

I got a VP-215 , good price , free shipping from TX

 

Im not sure how I picked it up and got it to my counter

 

and for me , it was and is well worth it.

 

Ive done a lot of ' bulk ' SV : CornedBeef , Turkeys etc

 

and pedestrian stuff :  freeze on sAle butter etc.

 

if you've gotten by w a dry pump, I think that's terrific.

 

BTW  ChamberBags are sooooo much cheaper 

 

they almost seem free .   Ive got a few sizes

 

1,000 bags , that might have Remainders 

 

after I MoveOn .

 

Its a WorkHorse for me.

  • Like 3
dscheidt

dscheidt

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, cdh said:

Nice to hear positive testimony from folks who have had good experiences with dry pumps over long periods of time. That is reassuring. 

The chamber dimensions they advertise are the size of a manila envelop, ~11x12 which is plenty of space in the x and y axes.  Z, on the other hand is only 3 inches tall. That means that sealing a couple of thick cut steaks is about as much as it can handle. And forget dropping a canning jar in there to seal something into it.  But is that something that people regularly do with a chamber vac?  Sealing a whole roast would not be doable... but how often would I want to do that?  


Most chamber vacuum sealers use a rotary vane pump, whether dry or oil sealed. 

 

Dry rotary vane pumps are relatively reliable, as long as they're used dry.  Vapor and solid debris damage the seals.  the seals also have physical contact with surfaces, so they wear out.  very few home users are going to use one enough to wear them out (lifespans are in hundreds to low thousands of hours, when used at low duty cycles.  heavier duty cycles, the seals get hot and wear out faster.  At a minute a bag, 1000 hours is 60,000 bags.....) Oil rotary vane pumps have the oil forming the seal, which has the advantage of being renewed constantly, and also makes them resistant to getting liquid or vapor into the pump (as long as you change the oil often enough that it's not water logged.)

 

They do not pull nearly as hard a vacuum, which is probably not a problem for most home use (it matters if you're trying to do some of the fancy compression stuff.  Not all of it, though.)  Size of the chamber is the biggest issue.  i have a vp215.  I'd very much like a bigger chamber, both wider (10" bags limit how big a thing you can get into one, and taller.   length isn't usual a problem. 

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andrewk512

andrewk512

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, dscheidt said:


Most chamber vacuum sealers use a rotary vane pump, whether dry or oil sealed. 

 

Dry rotary vane pumps are relatively reliable, as long as they're used dry.  Vapor and solid debris damage the seals.  the seals also have physical contact with surfaces, so they wear out.  very few home users are going to use one enough to wear them out (lifespans are in hundreds to low thousands of hours, when used at low duty cycles.  heavier duty cycles, the seals get hot and wear out faster.  At a minute a bag, 1000 hours is 60,000 bags.....) Oil rotary vane pumps have the oil forming the seal, which has the advantage of being renewed constantly, and also makes them resistant to getting liquid or vapor into the pump (as long as you change the oil often enough that it's not water logged.)

 

They do not pull nearly as hard a vacuum, which is probably not a problem for most home use (it matters if you're trying to do some of the fancy compression stuff.  Not all of it, though.)  Size of the chamber is the biggest issue.  i have a vp215.  I'd very much like a bigger chamber, both wider (10" bags limit how big a thing you can get into one, and taller.   length isn't usual a problem. 

 

Can you comment on the use of a dry pump to cool bread via evaporative cooling? How can Anova recommend this for their dry pump? Intuitively to me it seems it will wreck it

palo

palo

Posted
Posted

I've never heard of that before and my understanding is that liquids, i.e. the moisture in the bread would heat up and boil under reduced pressure

 

p

JoNorvelleWalker

JoNorvelleWalker

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, palo said:

I've never heard of that before and my understanding is that liquids, i.e. the moisture in the bread would heat up and boil under reduced pressure

 

p

 

Boiling cools things off.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_vaporization

 

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Cooking is cool.  And kitchen gear is even cooler.  -- Chad Ward

Whatever you crave, there's a dumpling for you. -- Hsiao-Ching Chou

dscheidt

dscheidt

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, andrewk512 said:

 

Can you comment on the use of a dry pump to cool bread via evaporative cooling? How can Anova recommend this for their dry pump? Intuitively to me it seems it will wreck it

one of two possibilities: first is they don't think people will do it enough to matter.  Second, they might be using a diaphragm pump.  They're relatively insensitive to liquids (as long as they don't get a big slug, some are even capable of dealing with that).  They're pretty common in labs, because they don't contaminate oil or water, and where a high vacuum isn't required.  They're loud, they don't reach as high a vacuum as even a dry rotary vane pump, and they're slow to get to their highest possible vacuum.  I'd have to get a look at the pump.  a diaphragm pump actually makes sense for low use machine, if you can accept the noise (or figure out how to make it quieter).  lab ones are easy to rebuild (new valves, new diaphragm, takes about as long as it took me to write the post); some purpose built ones are disposable. 

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palo

palo

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Boiling cools things off.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_vaporization

 

Not to get into a huge science discussion here, yes water boils at a lower temperature at lower pressure:

 

https://www.engineersedge.com/h2o_boil_pressure.htm

 

According to the chart @ 29.12 inches of hg vacuum, water will boil @ 76F. That is the accepted vacuum level of a good chamber vac. I'm unconvinced that evaporating the water will actually cool he bread and as Andrewk512 has questioned where does that moisture go? Into the dry pump? I don't "know' but I strongly suggest Anova is using a dry pump. This will probably discussed in more depth once someone gets their hands on one.

 

p

andrewk512

andrewk512

Posted
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, palo said:

I've never heard of that before and my understanding is that liquids, i.e. the moisture in the bread would heat up and boil under reduced pressure

 

p

 

Dave Arnold has been obsessing over it in his podcast the past year; from what I recall it has also been described in Modernist Cuisine/Bread but I've never read it. He is actually using it partially to get the bread more crispy as the idea is getting rid of all that moisture prevents subtle crust sogginess. I'd never seen it described elsewhere so I was shocked to see Anova mention it but they've really captured all the subtle pro secrets (like hydrating doughs) in their recipe guide.

 

I am more interested in the crisping factor than the cooling factor as I have already had many bad experiences with putting hot things in the chamber vac.... 😛 (and I have a blast chiller)

 

I wrote out to Anova earlier in the week on their social media but they have yet to respond. I agree with the suspicion that they are expecting people to not use the function enough to matter

Edited by andrewk512 (log)
JoNorvelleWalker

JoNorvelleWalker

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, palo said:

Not to get into a huge science discussion here, yes water boils at a lower temperature at lower pressure:

 

https://www.engineersedge.com/h2o_boil_pressure.htm

 

According to the chart @ 29.12 inches of hg vacuum, water will boil @ 76F. That is the accepted vacuum level of a good chamber vac. I'm unconvinced that evaporating the water will actually cool he bread and as Andrewk512 has questioned where does that moisture go? Into the dry pump? I don't "know' but I strongly suggest Anova is using a dry pump. This will probably discussed in more depth once someone gets their hands on one.

 

p

 

The energy to boil water has to come from someplace, no matter at what temperature/pressure that may be.  Boiling does not heat water up, boiling cools water down.  I can report that when I mix bread dough in my Polyscience, the dough comes out much colder than when it went in.

 

As far as where the water goes, Modernist Bread calls for one to put silica gel in the vacuum chamber to keep water out of the pump.

 

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Cooking is cool.  And kitchen gear is even cooler.  -- Chad Ward

Whatever you crave, there's a dumpling for you. -- Hsiao-Ching Chou

paulraphael

paulraphael

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, andrewk512 said:

 

Dave Arnold has been obsessing over it in his podcast the past year; from what I recall it has also been described in Modernist Cuisine/Bread but I've never read it. He is actually using it partially to get the bread more crispy as the idea is getting rid of all that moisture prevents subtle crust sogginess. I'd never seen it described elsewhere so I was shocked to see Anova mention it but they've really captured all the subtle pro secrets (like hydrating doughs) in their recipe guide.

 

Dave A. is buddies with the Anova folks. Their lead product designer has been a guest on his podcast.

Edited by paulraphael (log)
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Notes from the underbelly

jedovaty

jedovaty

Posted
Posted

In addition to bread, I recently saw someplace where the cooks use the chamber sealer to vacuum out bubbles created from high-speed blending - this may be old to many of you, but to me it was pretty nifty idea! 

 

I had always wanted a chamber sealer but combination of cost (for the good ones) and "where to put it" kept me away.  I saw a slightly used beefy unit on craigslist once for a great price, but sadly did not jump on it.  Nowadays, I don't think I'd get much use out of one, I don't sous vide like I used to, and I figured out how to use my foodsaver to make the quick pickles (the jar attachment with mason jars works great).  The only thing I might use it for would be to vac-seal stock to make for easier freezer storage.

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JoNorvelleWalker

JoNorvelleWalker

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, jedovaty said:

In addition to bread, I recently saw someplace where the cooks use the chamber sealer to vacuum out bubbles created from high-speed blending - this may be old to many of you, but to me it was pretty nifty idea! 

 

Kerry suggested this to me in the orgeat topic.

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/52996-orgeat/?do=findComment&comment=2339245

 

I didn't have the courage of my convictions and I was afraid that it would make a mess.

 

Cooking is cool.  And kitchen gear is even cooler.  -- Chad Ward

Whatever you crave, there's a dumpling for you. -- Hsiao-Ching Chou

andrewk512

andrewk512

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, jedovaty said:

In addition to bread, I recently saw someplace where the cooks use the chamber sealer to vacuum out bubbles created from high-speed blending - this may be old to many of you, but to me it was pretty nifty idea! 

 They use this a lot in EMP The Next Chapter and the new French Laundry book. I have trouble getting it to work with open containers, I think mostly because my liquid to container ratio is too high and I can't do much before I risk it blowing over (happened to me more than I like to admit). Works great in a bag though, if you can spare a bag for it. I hope vacuum blenders become more mainstream in the future

Edited by andrewk512 (log)
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JoNorvelleWalker

JoNorvelleWalker

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, andrewk512 said:

 They use this a lot in EMP The Next Chapter and the new French Laundry book. I have trouble getting it to work with open containers, I think mostly because my liquid to container ratio is too high and I can't do much before I risk it blowing over (happened to me more than I like to admit). Works great in a bag though, if you can spare a bag for it. I hope vacuum blenders become more mainstream in the future

 

I'd need a vacuum homogenizer.

 

  • Like 2

Cooking is cool.  And kitchen gear is even cooler.  -- Chad Ward

Whatever you crave, there's a dumpling for you. -- Hsiao-Ching Chou

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