Modernist Bread Preview: What we've seen so far

[gfweb]

2 hours ago, weinoo said:

The difference in baseball, of course, is the unforeseen stuff like injuries.

 

The difference in bread baking, of course, is the unforeseen stuff like the actual temperature and humidity of the place where the baking is happening, the moisture content of the flour, etc. And doesn't the ability to add a pinch more flour, or a tablespoonful more water come from actually handling the dough...and experience?

True.

And the SABRE stuff also misses character and desire issues.

[cakewalk]

Random musings: Is this going to boil down to semantics? If you add green apple schnapps and lemon juice to vodka, it's not a martini any more. Well, okay. Call it something else and there's no argument? Or are you basically against adding green apple schnapps and lemon juice to vodka, period. I suppose there are many people who would say that even using vodka rules out the martini, since martinis (real martinis, anyway) are made with gin, no?

 

I instinctively cringe at the whole MC thing, and I'm not sure why. I don't have all the backup arguments you all seem to be using, I don't know the history of Neopolitan pizza, etc. I only know that my goal over the years has been to be able to make a loaf of good sourdough bread without referring to recipes and notes, never mind the minutiae of Modernist Cuisine. I want to be able to feed my starter, mix in some flour (sometimes this type of flour, sometimes that type of flour), some liquid, a bit of salt and know, by the way the resulting dough looks and feels and behaves, whether or not it's a good one. And to know, if it isn't so good, why. What could I do differently with the next loaf. I do not want the answer to involve .00001 gram of anything.

 

I think the real success of MC will eventually depend on its accessibility. These boys have a nice playground to work in. They have the money for admission. Most people do not. Don't underestimate the part this will play in the whole thing. I already refuse to pay the amounts of money the "artisanal" bakeries are asking for a loaf of bread. Bread is not an elitist food item. I think Les Miserables is a brilliant piece of work, but I'm not ready to watch us all become Jean Valjean!!

 

 

[scott123]

1 hour ago, chromedome said:

Why, the usual confrontation of tradition vs. innovation, of course. What else?

 

I am not anti-innovation.  As I said before, I pioneered poydextrose for the home baker.  I pioneered steel plate for pizza.  I'm as pro innovation, pro science as you can get.  You can fall in love with a regional delicacy and have a desire to preserve it for future generations by clearly defining it while still pursuing progress.  The two are not mutually exclusive. 

 

Open source software authors get this.  If you have what you believe to be an improvement in a piece of software, but the rest of the team isn't in agreement, you create a fork.  The fork then stands as a separate entity, and succeeds or fails on it's own merits.  Neither tradition nor innovation are integral to this process.  It's just a matter of "this is something different, we're calling it something else.:"

Edited November 9, 2017 by scott123 (log)

[scott123]

9 minutes ago, cakewalk said:

Bread is not an elitist food item.

 

I agree.  While Nathan's team has, I'm sure, invested a vast amount of time into this, and ink and paper, of which this has plenty, costs money, the final price tag feels a little ibready to me. This particular sneetch has no stars upon thars- and never will.

 

Bread knowledge should be for everyone. This is not the pre-rerformation Catholic church, where only a small number of priests have direct access to the divine.

[chromedome]

16 minutes ago, scott123 said:

 

I am not anti-innovation.  As I said before, I pioneered poydextrose for the home baker.  I pioneered steel plate for pizza.  I'm as pro innovation, pro science as you can get.  You can fall in love with a regional delicacy and have a desire to preserve it for future generations by clearly defining it while still pursuing progress.  The two are not mutually exclusive. 

 

Open source software authors get this.  If you have what you believe to be an improvement in a piece of software, but the rest of the team isn't in agreement, you create a fork.  The fork then stands as a separate entity, and succeeds or fails on it's own merits.  Neither tradition nor innovation are integral to this process.  It's just a matter of "this is something different, we're calling it something else.:"

 

I totally get this, Scott. I'm a pragmatist, and don't belong fully to either camp. I think all of us who are passionate about food and drink have one particular hill we're prepared to die on, and Neapolitan pizza is yours (or one of yours, anyway...I don't know you, and you may have several more that haven't come up in conversations I follow). 

 

FWIW, I think that Neapolitan pizza now exists as its own clearly defined "thing," and that to my mind the various tweaks and riffs are "Neapolitan-style," or "Neapolitan-influenced," or what have you, as opposed to "Neapolitan pizza" per se. And speaking as a guy with 20+ Linux distros sitting on thumb drives and optical discs on his desk, open-source software is an excellent analogy. 

[chromedome]

54 minutes ago, Raamo said:

 

 You mean traveling the world and trying different things is doing it wrong?  My family are a bunch of Swedes (who came to States in the 1850s) - but this means salt and pepper is the spices used.  So I grew up eating very boring bad food.  

Now we travel around the world and I've discovered things I've never had before and are stupid good.  Who knows what will be the next staple in our house... So enlighten me - what is the right way ;-)

 

You misunderstood me, I'm afraid. I was agreeing with you that if you're doing it right, the pleasure of being "surprised by new revelations" won't stop any time soon.

 

In my case, the big epiphany came when I moved to Vancouver after growing up in rural Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. Vancouver's a fine food city, and I was overwhelmed by all the new flavors. That's what led to me going to culinary school, some 20 years later. 

[Raamo]

Just now, chromedome said:

You misunderstood me, I'm afraid. I was agreeing with you that if you're doing it right, the pleasure of being "surprised by new revelations" won't stop any time soon.

 

Thanks, I agree with that - I was very sheltered as a child - learned to cook because I'm a picky eater - and eventually found out just how amazing properly cooked and prepared food can be.  We're hosting T-Day for the 3rd time now because unlike the rest of my family I know how to cook a turkey so that it's not dried out and (IMO) inedible.  Featured will be MC's Turkey Confit and Breast preparation.  Now I'm expecting some fun bread out of MC Bread as well.  For me the turning point was in college which was in the middle of no where Minnesota - there was a fine dining place 15 mins away - half way to the closet bigger city (40k)- with amazing food.  My now wife and I went there a few times, and I learned there was this thing called Fine Dining.  That restaurant has long since closed and there's a winery in it's place.  But that changed my outlook on food.  Without that I wouldn't have found this site later - directly because I got MC@H, then MC, now MB.  I have a very modern kitchen - we use pressure cookers and SV all the time.  My extended family meanwhile won't cook for me but doesn't seem interested or willing in learning to cook better.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

3 hours ago, Raamo said:

On topic of MC:Bread - turns out Amazon screwed up and didn't tell me my valid payment wasn't valid in their system (likely because the order is 14 months old) so my MC:Bread hasn't even shipped yet - it's coming next day now - because their system messed up - so I'll have it my Monday at the latest.  So Until then I hope contest #2 item shows up today since the last one showed up last week on Thursday. 

 

I expected to wake up to my copy.  Tracking shows the package left amazon in Kentucky yesterday but has not yet been received by USPS.  How does one misplace something with the gravitas of Modernist Bread?  Perhaps no one could be found to lift it.

 

In any event I am not looking forward to the phone call.

 

[Raamo]

2 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I expected to wake up to my copy.  Tracking shows the package left amazon in Kentucky yesterday but has not yet been received by USPS.  How does one misplace something with the gravitas of Modernist Bread?  Perhaps no one could be found to lift it.

 

In any event I am not looking forward to the phone call.

 

 

FWIW the shipping company forgot to put a case of wine on it's truck last week - so I also have wine showing up 5 days late....  Right now just seems to be the time when things go for broke.

Hopefully some other folks got the book today!  

[Anna N]

1 hour ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

In any event I am not looking forward to the phone call.

I understand. Even moving one volume a few feet requires that I rest for half an hour.

[weinoo]

5 hours ago, cakewalk said:

Random musings: Is this going to boil down to semantics? If you add green apple schnapps and lemon juice to vodka, it's not a martini any more. Well, okay. Call it something else and there's no argument? Or are you basically against adding green apple schnapps and lemon juice to vodka, period. I suppose there are many people who would say that even using vodka rules out the martini, since martinis (real martinis, anyway) are made with gin, no?

 

I instinctively cringe at the whole MC thing, and I'm not sure why. I don't have all the backup arguments you all seem to be using, I don't know the history of Neopolitan pizza, etc. I only know that my goal over the years has been to be able to make a loaf of good sourdough bread without referring to recipes and notes, never mind the minutiae of Modernist Cuisine. I want to be able to feed my starter, mix in some flour (sometimes this type of flour, sometimes that type of flour), some liquid, a bit of salt and know, by the way the resulting dough looks and feels and behaves, whether or not it's a good one. And to know, if it isn't so good, why. What could I do differently with the next loaf. I do not want the answer to involve .00001 gram of anything.

 

I think the real success of MC will eventually depend on its accessibility. These boys have a nice playground to work in. They have the money for admission. Most people do not. Don't underestimate the part this will play in the whole thing. I already refuse to pay the amounts of money the "artisanal" bakeries are asking for a loaf of bread. Bread is not an elitist food item. I think Les Miserables is a brilliant piece of work, but I'm not ready to watch us all become Jean Valjean!!

 

 

Right - there's no argument if you call that drink something else, and I am in no way against anyone drinking or eating anything they feel like!

 

And I totally applaud your goal and way of making a good sourdough bread by hand; essentially how I tried to do it when I was baking more. Now, I just prefer to buy great bread from great bakers and support them in their efforts to achieve the same.

[chefmd]

Amazon price dropped to 415 dollars.  Not exactly cheap but cheaper than it was...  I ordered.  Two day shipping.  Can't wait.

[Anna N]

 If I could make one single improvement to Modernist Bread,  it would be to provide an online index!   That would make life simpler and save my poor aching bones and muscles from constantly consulting Volume 5!   Please Nathan. 

[Lisa Shock]

1 minute ago, Anna N said:

 If I could make one single improvement to Modernist Bread,  it would be to provide an online index!   That would make life simpler and save my poor aching bones and muscles from constantly consulting Volume 5!   Please Nathan. 

 

Do you use Eat My Books? Would that solve the issue?

[Anna N]

7 minutes ago, Lisa Shock said:

 

Do you use Eat My Books? Would that solve the issue?

 I have serious doubts that it’s been indexed.  I will certainly have a look. 

 

[Anna N]

1 minute ago, Anna N said:

 I have serious doubts that it’s been indexed.  I will certainly have a look. 

 

 As I suspected. I believe that members help create these indices so I’m not sure how many years it might be before one shows up. 

[Lisa Shock]

On 11/9/2017 at 8:35 AM, cakewalk said:

Random musings: Is this going to boil down to semantics? If you add green apple schnapps and lemon juice to vodka, it's not a martini any more. Well, okay. Call it something else and there's no argument? Or are you basically against adding green apple schnapps and lemon juice to vodka, period. I suppose there are many people who would say that even using vodka rules out the martini, since martinis (real martinis, anyway) are made with gin, no?

 

I instinctively cringe at the whole MC thing, and I'm not sure why. I don't have all the backup arguments you all seem to be using, I don't know the history of Neopolitan pizza, etc. I only know that my goal over the years has been to be able to make a loaf of good sourdough bread without referring to recipes and notes, never mind the minutiae of Modernist Cuisine. I want to be able to feed my starter, mix in some flour (sometimes this type of flour, sometimes that type of flour), some liquid, a bit of salt and know, by the way the resulting dough looks and feels and behaves, whether or not it's a good one. And to know, if it isn't so good, why. What could I do differently with the next loaf. I do not want the answer to involve .00001 gram of anything.

 

I think the real success of MC will eventually depend on its accessibility. These boys have a nice playground to work in. They have the money for admission. Most people do not. Don't underestimate the part this will play in the whole thing. I already refuse to pay the amounts of money the "artisanal" bakeries are asking for a loaf of bread. Bread is not an elitist food item. I think Les Miserables is a brilliant piece of work, but I'm not ready to watch us all become Jean Valjean!!

 

 

 

I wonder where you got the idea that tossing things together based upon feel is some sort of norm for making bread. I have a collection of books for professionals going back to 1809, and everything gets weighed carefully and temperatures taken (not just of the ovens, but the water, and the room). Once modern electric mixers are introduced, you start seeing calculations for the friction factor and, with reliable refrigeration, you see calculations on retarding dough at refrigeration temperatures. I know there's a faction of home cooks out there who are proud to not use recipes or measuring tools for anything, but commercial bakers have been using scientific equipment to help them make consistent product for a very long time. Sure, they check the windowpane, sniff, poke, punch, etc. to see how things are progressing, but I doubt that any commercial bakery would voluntarily give up their thermometers.

[cakewalk]

3 minutes ago, Lisa Shock said:

 

I know there's a faction of home cooks out there who are proud to not use recipes or measuring tools for anything, but commercial bakers have been using scientific equipment to help them make consistent product for a very long time. 

You seem to be blurring the distinction between home cooks and commercial bakers. I am not. I am talking about home bakers only. 

[Chris Hennes]

35 minutes ago, cakewalk said:

You seem to be blurring the distinction between home cooks and commercial bakers. I am not. I am talking about home bakers only. 

Do remember that there are multiple types of home bakers. I am interested in the finished product: if getting a better finished product requires measuring things to the hundredth of a gram or sixteenth of a teaspoon or whatever, I'm game. If it requires me to use a written recipe instead of memorizing things, I'm OK with that. This is particularly true because I'm emphatically not interested in just making the same bread over and over. So yes, there are home bakers who consider it a point of pride that they make good bread without tools or recipes. If your goal is to be able to make a great sourdough by eye and feel, go for it. But please don't disparage those of us who use recipes and measure ingredients as though we are somehow lesser cooks.

[cakewalk]

I am not disparaging anyone.

[weinoo]

15 hours ago, Chris Hennes said:

 lesser cooks.

Geekier cooks?  

[Chris Hennes]

2 hours ago, weinoo said:

Geekier cooks?  

That, I cannot deny.

[rotuts]

I had no idea where to post this

 

so I thought here

 

In interested in the Ups and Down of Costs

 

I got my MB just today

 

$ 415 USD

 

it was supposed to arrive friday , and sent Nov 13

 

there was some sort of delay , i.e. shipping soon Amazon said

 

Im in no hurry  so I called them thruday

 

they looked into it and apologized and said they would ship it over night  free

 

at no additional charge

 

 

@ 415 USD

 

however I looked into it just now :

 

 

I wonder what's going on

 

very odd.

 

Happy Baking !