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scott123

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Everything posted by scott123

  1. Breville is responsible for some of the worst pizza ovens in the history of pizza ovens. If they really wanted to appeal to the obsessive market- and, let's face it, the only people spending $800 OR $1200 on a pizza oven are going to be obsessives, if they wanted to market this in the best light possible, they should have removed their name. As far as the oven itself goes, a 2 minute bake isn't Neapolitan pizza, and, if you're going to spend $800, you had darn well better get Neapolitan capabilities. I'm not saying that this oven can't do Neapolitan, but, from the videos I've been able to track down, I haven't seen it, and, if the Uuni and the Roccbox are any indicators, it's going to be at least 8 months before this oven gets into the hands of someone that even knows how to make Neapolitan pizza. I'm not going to lie, the lifting action on the hearth as you close the door is pretty ingenious. In the prototype ovens that I've designed, I've had that feature- at least I've had the hearth down for launching and up for the bake. Having it come out- with a heavy-ish stone- I think the engineering gets a bit iffy on that. It's hard to tell, but I get the feeling that they may not use a stone, but, rather, use a metal sheet for the hearth. Depending on the thinness of the metal, that may be a bad idea, but I have to learn more to know for certain. The Blackstone is off the market, so, if this could do a 60 second bake, that would be a pretty big selling point. But it would have to be at most $800, not $800 on sale, but $800, period. When you get into the $1200 realm, that comes close to the cost of having an F1 shipped from Europe.
  2. As I said before, 10 bucks: https://www.amazon.com/Thermometer-58℉-1022℉-Non-Contact-Temperature-Adjustable/dp/B07C3SLMVN It's not the prettiest IR thermometer, but, should you ever get a Neapolitan capable oven, the peak temp on this model will play friendly with it. This will get to the bottom of your mystery. Guaranteed. You will need to, as previously discussed, season your aluminum for IR to work, but, you'll want to do that anyway to minimize the preheat time by maximizing absorptivity.
  3. As I mentioned before, with the temps your main oven can reach, aluminum isn't buying you anything in terms of a reduction in bake time, because you'll be limited by the strength of your broiler, but it will be considerably lighter to work with. Even at a whopping 1 inch, it should still be relatively easy to take in and out of the oven. What size did you get?
  4. https://youtu.be/itqTL3knVeM?t=139 This particular process uses sodium hydroxide to prep the surface, which basically corrodes it. I've seen sandblasting as a prep as well. https://i0.wp.com/img0.etsystatic.com/002/0/6262900/il_570xN.377462932_bkig.jpg I have this vintage sunbeam waffle iron with irons that swap out for flat griddles. For as long as I can remember, at least 40 years, the waffle iron has been seasoned dark black, without a single flake. I attribute this longevity to both the nooks and crannies of the iron itself and the surface imperfections of the cast aluminum. Ive tried seasoning the flat griddles with little success, but this was years ago, before I started watching videos on teflon pans. I may give them a try with sandpaper. I think the major issue with the griddles, though, is that they tend to give a bit. Flexibility is the kiss of death for seasoning.
  5. Nathan and Chris's mistreatment of Neapolitan pizza in MC has been the focus of my attention for many years. I focused so much on the misinformation, I lost sight of the useful information in the book. I was doing some digging today, and remembered this: From Volume 2, Page 26 of Modernist Cuisine: "Buy a metal plate (not shown). A piece of metal 2cm/3/4 in thick and large enough to just fit in the oven is ideal- and surprisingly inexpensive. Either steel or aluminum works, but the latter is much easier to lift." So, as you can see, the Modernist folks have already recommended 3/4" aluminum plate for pizza. I do not agree with their blanket recommendation for all ovens and all types of pizza, but, as I've said, in the right setting and the right application, thick aluminum can be invaluable. Here's some experimentation with aluminum: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51228.0 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21951.0 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25758.0 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30572.0 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21951.0 https://forums.egullet.org/topic/152882-diy-crispy-pizza-crust/?tab=comments#comment-2048144 https://stefangourmet.com/2012/06/27/real-pizza-in-a-domestic-oven-using-an-aluminum-plate/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Pizza/comments/190jhp/pizza_cooked_on_a_200mm_thick_aluminium_slab_in_2/ It took a few years, but the pizza community figured out that 3/4" steel couldn't produce a faster bake than 1/2". Basically, the heat can't travel from the bottom 1/4" during the time the pizza bakes. Aluminum, though, is different. We haven't determined the thickness of aluminum that produces the fastest bake- and with it's incredibly high conductivity and cost, we may never reach that point. With this in mind, if you are dead set for getting aluminum for your CSO, I'd go with an inch- or even thicker. 1" aluminum at 450 might actually give you the coveted 4 minute bake. And don't worry about a special alloy. 6061 is the cheapest, it's what everyone uses for pizza, and it's perfectly fine to use at the temps you'll be using it at. As has been mentioned, you will want to season it. I would take a page out of the teflon coating handbook and rough up the surface a bit with sandpaper prior to seasoning. That will help the seasoning stick (aluminum is a bit harder to season).
  6. I resonate a bit more with the comment from this guy "I’m betting the steel just got hotter than the copper. Most of the heating in an oven is by radiant heat, and materials that absorb more IR will heat up much faster." I'm sure you recognize that comment, but, just in case you don't, it's your comment from the comment section of Kenji's post. I guarantee you that the copper was at a lower temp than the steel. It's mind boggling that Kenji would compare two different materials for baking pizza without an infrared thermometer. While I think that emissivity plays a role with shiny materials like aluminum and copper, I don't think radiation is the 'primary' player over conduction. https://forums.egullet.org/topic/136959-cooking-with-modernist-cuisine-part-1/?page=6&tab=comments#comment-1791987 "3. Once the pizza is in contact with the metal plate, heat will be primarily by conduction, not radiation, so the heat transfer to the pizza will be pretty much the same regardless of whether the aluminum is shiny or not." Nathan is erring in the other direction by downplaying radiation completely, but I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Radiation does play a trivial role, and this impact typically results in greater contrast in longer bakes with shiny aluminum. Contrast isn't necessarily a bad thing (see Neapolitan), but, to level the playing field, I do feel that seasoning aluminum is important. So I agree 100% about the need for seasoning, but I feel very strongly that it's primarily a conduction game, not a radiative one.
  7. It's all about conductivity. Steel plate is able to transfer heat at a faster rate than stone, and aluminum is able to transfer heat at a faster rate than steel. So, while the bottom of the pizza might cook in about 11 minutes on a stone @ 500, and 7 minutes on steel plate @ 500, aluminum plate can, at that same 500 degree temp, achieve a 4 minute bake. Aluminum is considerably less dense than steel, but it has a higher specific heat. A little less than 1/2" of steel plate (.47) matches the heat capacity of 3/4" aluminum. This is why I generally recommend 3/4" aluminum. It's low density is a big plus. 16" x 16" x .5" of steel weighs 30 pounds, where 16" x 16" x .75" of aluminum weighs 10 pounds. That's going to be a lot easier to get in and out of the oven. Lastly, I should point out that I was recommending aluminum to Katie in the context of her 500F oven, as well as European ovens that can reach 250C/482F. It was not in the context of 450F, so aluminum is not the answer to your Cuisinart Steam Oven. It also wouldn't be buying you anything in your main oven either, since, although it might very well take you down to 90 seconds @ 585 on the base of the pizza, it's almost guaranteed that you won't have the necessary broiler strength to bake the top of the pizza at the same rate. Aluminum plate, right now, is extremely application specific- 4-5 minute NY style pizza @ 482-500F. You're not in this group. You might be able to hit 6 minutes with the CSO, maybe, but that's completely uncharted territory.
  8. While I fiercely disagreed/disagree with Nathan and Kenji on particular aspects regarding steel, we all agree on one thing. Steel's primary purpose for the home pizza maker is reducing bake times. Heat is leavening, so a faster bake produces a puffier crust. Within this paradigm, 7-8 minutes is really not that fast. I used to talk about how, out of the (at the time) hundreds of people I knew who had used steel, not one, when they successfully achieved a 4-5 minute bake, ever went back to the 7 minute bakes they were getting on stone. And then a couple people went back Still, though, 99% of the folks that achieved that elusive 4-5 minute bake continued on that path. You sound extraordinarily pleased with your current pizzas, but, should you ever get the itch and ask yourself "where do I go from here?", assuming you have a broiler in the main compartment of your oven, you can hit that magic 4-5 minute bake with thick aluminum plate. Aluminum is going to be the next stage in home pizza making. The modernist team's days of trailblazing faster bakes appear to be over, and without their stamp of approval, Kenji won't go anywhere near it, so it might take as long as a decade to match steel's ubiquity, but any entrepreneurs reading this might want to get their hands on the bakingaluminum.com domain now Also, the bakingaluminum.uk and bakingaluminum.de addresses as well, as aluminum is poised to explode in Europe where 250C (482F) is a very common peak temp- and where interest in making better pizza at home is on the rise.
  9. When Raffaele Esposito made the first Margherita for the Queen consort in 1889, he certainly didn't take surface readings of his hearth with an in IR thermometer but, since IR thermometers became affordable to home and professional pizza makers in the early aughts, they have served this purpose valiantly. While I'm a little intrigued by the use of a surface thermocouple for this purpose, the track record for an IR thermometer in this role is so untarnished, I'm going to have to cast my vote in the 'if it isn't broke, don't fix it' column. Are $10 (on Amazon) Chinese IR thermometers sexy? No. Are they super precise? Not really. But for this particular job, you cant' find a better tool, imo.
  10. It looks like your infrared thermometer isn't working properly. 477F can't blacken the bottom of a pizza in 4 minutes. 585F- now that will produce what you're experiencing. Have you tested your IR thermometer with boiling water?
  11. scott123

    Pizza Dough

    My reference to oven temperature had nothing to do with ambient temps. I was referring to the temperature of the ceiling of the oven and how a 700 degree ceiling isn't going to have that much more radiative impact than a 550 ceiling. Temperature, in this context- not a bed of coals vs. a gas flame, but, rather, the exact same ceiling at two different temps- in that context, temperature dictates radiative impact. Perhaps if the broiler wasn't present, and the pizza was in far greater proximity, you could detect a difference between the radiative impact of a 550 ceiling and a 700 one, but you'd still fall incredibly short for the necessary top heat for Neapolitan. The radiative impact of a 700 degree ceiling in a self cleaning hacked oven is, from a Neapolitan perspective, completely inconsequential. For Neapolitan in a home oven, everything hinges on broiler strength- and a self cleaning hack doesn't increase broiler strength. Undercrust leoparding can be achieved with aluminum plate at 600. Undercrust leoparding in a home oven is feasible. It's not the easiest to achieve, but when there's a will, there's a way (and it need not be a self cleaning cleaning cycle). But that's all for naught if you can't leopard the top of the pizza- and to achieve that, you're completely at the mercy of your broiler. A 1 in 1000 broiler, and you're all set. A 999 in 1000 broiler, and, if you're smart, you're making something else. For the record, I've never seen a high powered infrared broiler produce a Neapolitan bake time. I've seen literature that talks a good game, but I have yet to see results. It might be possible, but, if someone is reading this conversation, I'd hate to see them spend a huge amount of money on this kind of oven, only to have it fall short. Time should help clear this up- unless you can point me towards a success story that you're aware of. My thoughts on water can be found here (cliff notes; extra water won't compensate for lower heat), but, if you extend the bake clock and switch to malted flour, you're clearly making NY style pizza, not Neapolitan. Up until yesterday, I hadn't heard the term 'Brooklyn Neapolitan.' I like it, and, with your permission, I'm going to start using it. I'm especially impressed by the fact that you recognized the innate difference, and, rather than just boorishly expanding the Neapolitan definition (like so many people feel oddly compelled to do) you graciously created a unique substyle. Now, if you're going to try to shoehorn 4 minute malted flour pizza into the Neapolitan spectrum, then all that good will is going to evaporate quickly. And, no 4 minute malted flour pizza is not a hybrid.
  12. scott123

    Pizza Dough

    Well, New Haven pizza can get pretty oval, but I think 10 x 20 (two 10 x 10 plates) isn't really viable. Unless you bought four 10 x 10 plates. I grew up on 21" slice pies, and, if someone asked me what the perfect sized pizza is, I might say 21" (the slices really are perfectly shaped), but, with the bow of the shelf, you'd have to remove the shelf from the equation entirely and suspend the plates on bars- which is probably way more involved than you want to get. Steam does some pretty amazing things to melting cheese, and I've always been curious about adding steam to the pizza equation, but, bottom line, 450 is the death of puffy. There's nothing you can do with the ingredients, process or the formula that will counteract the effects of that cool of an oven.
  13. scott123

    Pizza Dough

    Imagine how a Christian would feel if you told them you were considering worshiping satan. That's about how I feel about a 10" baking surface I'm going to do my best to try and save you, but, if a 10" steel is your pathway to bliss, so be it.
  14. scott123

    Pizza Dough

    Well, first of all, I've never come across a Neapolitan pizzeria who wasn't approaching the pizza authentically. As I said before, if you mess with the recipe, it fails- miserably. Aspiring owners tend to be smart enough not to mess with perfection. So this imaginary pizzeria we're discussing doesn't exist. But I understand the possibility for adulteration on a commercial level. This isn't about what people like or don't like. You're not going to find me standing outside that Vermont pizzerias waving a placard My beef is with the authors. The Reinharts, the Modernists, the Kenji's, and the Forkishes who are perpetuating the misinformation. If you write a book or a blog, you should be doing your homework. As an educator, you should start from a position of being educated. My beef is also with forums like this one who should be holding these educators to task, but who aren't.
  15. scott123

    Pizza Dough

    I added too much water to my pizza and it burned. Hey, the fire's going out, add water! I've been hard on Nathan, Chris, and, more recently Francisco. At the end of the day, I don't think this is a conspiracy to ruin pizza, it's just bakers looking at pizza through a bread lens. Baker's gonna bake :) I really wished they'd, at some point, consulted with people in the industry and learned to approach pizza as pizza rather than bread, but it looks like they might be doing that now. Three 5 x 15 x .375 slabs of steel. Each slab will weigh 8 lb. Since oven shelves tend to sag in the middle a bit under weight, run the seams from side wall to side wall. I'm a big proponent of larger surface areas, because bigger pizza is better but, if you were going to be happy with 10" pies in the Cuisinart, you might not need to go larger than 15". Even if you do end up making 12 or 13 inch pizzas, the bigger target is nice for launching. A 15" steel surface @ 550 will completely blow any kind of 450 degree Cuisinart setup out of the water. As much time as I've spent in the past highlighting the distinct differences between pizza and bread. If you're working with a reasonable hydration bread dough (60%ish with bread flour), that should be fine for pizza. Leftover dough, if it's refrigerated can be tricky to ball as it can be hard to seal well, but if you're conscientious to make sure the seal is nice and tight and give it at least 6 hours before stretching, you should be fine.
  16. scott123

    Pizza Dough

    Within the last 15 years, I've come across maybe 3,000 people who've tried making Neapolitan pizza at home. Do you know how many of these people had the 'right kind of home oven?' Three. Yes, it's possible to make Neapolitan in a home oven, but framing conversations in the context of a 1 in 1000 chance for success doesn't serve the home pizza maker. Had you said, 'taking pizza in a Neapolitan direction with the right oven', I would have agreed with you. But you made the implication that home cooks can strive for Neapolitan- all home cooks and that this direction is somehow okay. Considering your vast exposure to 60 second pizza and your innate knowledge of it's superiority (as compared to unmalted flour dough baked for 4 minutes), if anyone would be able to grasp the concept that it's absolutely not okay for the vast number of home cooks to strive for Neapolitan, it should be you. There's hybrid toppings but, as you pointed out, there are no hybrid bake times. I've talked with Paulie Gee (king of the Brooklyn Neapolitan, imo) extensively about this,and he understands it unequivocally. If you lower the heat and extend the bake time with a Neapolitan dough, it suffers. And self clean cycles, besides being potentially oven damaging and dangerous, have no correlation to making Neapolitan pizza at home. You said it yourself, it's all down to the broiler, and, if the broiler is too weak at 550 (which pretty much all home oven broilers are), it will still be too weak at 700.
  17. scott123

    Pizza Dough

    Do you know many Neapolitans? I do. They're fiercely proud of their pizza- and rightly so. If you came up with arguably the best food on the planet, wouldn't you want the whole world to experience it- and not a shitty adulterated version of it? I guarantee you that the folks that wrote this document care about what happens in Vermont. And they're not looking down their nose on the adulterators, nor are they laughing at them. They're sad and angry because the perversion is robbing the uninitiated of the cherished experience their forefathers worked so hard to cultivate. The French care pretty deeply about champagne, how do you know they wouldn't care about the adulteration of a croissant? The protection of champagne, of parmigiano reggiano, of balsamic vinegar- these protections have very obvious financial aspects, but there's also a substantial cultural component as well. "We, the rock star Reggio Emilians have come up with the pinnacle of cheese, we know that you, the rest of the world, are going to want to screw it up- are going to want to culturally appropriate it and commodify the crap out of it. Don't. And pay us." Atrophy is the way of the world. If you make something truly wonderful and you don't find a way to protect it, to educate the rest of the world, it's not going to be around forever. I don't really enjoy paying 14.99 a pound for Parmigiano Reggiano, but I am unbelievably grateful that the Reggio Emilians went to/are going to such great lengths to make sure that I get to experience their cultural treasure. Just because the Neapolitans don't have lawyers attacking adulterators, it doesn't make their culture any less worthy of protection. In fact, I would argue that, without the mercenary component, Neapolitan pizza is more worthy of protection- that instead of lawyers threatening to sue, it's just people, like you and me, spreading the truth.
  18. scott123

    Pizza Dough

    This is obviously not about 90 second pizza vs 92 second pizza. The fastest possible bake with Neapolitan dough in a home oven is going to be around 4 minutes. It's 90 seconds vs 4 minutes. 550 vs. 850. Pushing Neapolitan pizza to 4 minutes is like making a fat free croissant. Without the fat, it's not a croissant any more. And trying to sell people on the viability of a fat free croissant is pretty unforgivable.
  19. scott123

    Pizza Dough

    An apple-tini doesn't ruin a martini. It's just a personal preference. It's like someone who likes to top their pizza with corn or another person who likes pineapple. I don't get involved with that stuff. On the other hand... if you take Neapolitan dough and bake it in a home oven, because the flour is unmalted, it will take forever to brown, which will dry out the crust, resulting in something bordering on biscotti. Martini's aren't really engineered. Neapolitan pizza is. Neapolitan dough baked for 4 minutes isn't better than the mediocre pizza most people can get locally. Neapolitan adulteration and misinformation ruins home baked pizza. Producing better pizza at home is the end all be all. And authors that push their readers towards unobtainable Neapolitan ambitions do them a terrible disservice.
  20. scott123

    Pizza Dough

    I'm sure I don't have to explain to you the amount of energy it takes to heat water, but, for those that may not know, it takes a lot. In the same sauce pan, try timing how long it takes to boil 1/2" of water and how long it takes to boil 2" of water. One is a matter of seconds, the other minutes. I can't speak for bread, but the rate at which pizza dough heats up in the oven is a big part of it's leavening. The water in the base of the dough quickly boils and turns to steam. This rapidly expanding steam is driven upward, which heats the rest of the dough and expands the gas that was formed during proofing. If you load the dough with water, it takes what should be a quick rise in temperature in the dough, a somewhat explosive reaction, and slows it way down. If dough doesn't get hot quickly, oven spring is sacrificed. Gluten needs water to form. Every flour has a fairly exact amount of water that it can absorb which professionals call it's absorption value. Any water you add beyond that is just adding free water to the dough. And this water that the gluten has no use for, this excess water, takes considerably more energy to heat, and that kills the oven spring. Beyond impairing volume, excess water impairs the texture of pizza crusts in other ways. Cooler ovens have issues with pizza because, as they extend the bake time, the dough dries out and gets hard. You might think that you're adding moisture and softness to the final product by adding water to the dough, but, in reality, by adding water, you're just increasing the bake time, and, in order to get the crust to eventually brown, you're drying it out just as much. Excess water is not your friend. Up until the point you reach the absorption value, it's your best buddy, playing the ultra critical role of hydrating the gluten, but beyond that, it's just a literal and a figurative wet blanket. Those are my thoughts on water I don't know exactly what kind of pizza you're striving for, and, perhaps, with a considerable amount of extra oil and sugar, you can do something American-ish or maybe something foccacia-ish, but if you want pizza that's soft, chewy, puffy, and has good color, I just don't see it happening in the Cuisinart. 10" x 10" x .375" steel has the same surface area- and the same weight, as 7" x 14" x .375". If you're willing to work with 10" x 10", just get two pieces of 7" x 14" steel to make a 14" x 14" surface for your main oven. If 7 x 14 is too heavy/too unwieldy for you, you can even break it down into three pieces- maybe three 5 x 15 pieces. Like I said, I'm not really sure what you're striving for, but, from your description of your DeLonghi pizza, it certainly sounds like you want puffy. If that's the case, I strongly recommend using your main oven. How hot does your main oven get? Does it have a broiler in the main compartment?
  21. scott123

    Pizza Dough

    As Paul pointed out, if you're the right candidate (hot enough oven, broiler in the main compartment), steel is better than iron or stone. Here is my guide to sourcing steel locally. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31267.0 Edit: Link already provided.
  22. scott123

    Pizza Dough

    https://www.fornobravo.com/vera-pizza-napoletana/pizza-napoletana/ Broiler or no broiler, 60-90 second pizza isn't happening in a typical home oven- with or without steel. If you're going to be a purist- and I applaud your zealotry then you should be aware that there is no Neapolitan pizza 'direction.' Either you have an oven that can do 90 seconds or less, and, along with an unmalted flour, you make Neapolitan pizza, or, you don't have the right oven, and you work with the temperature you're able to reach and make other styles- with other flour. I'm not pointing the finger at you, but this whole Neapolitan pizza is whatever we feel like it is thing has got to be finally put to bed. Reinhart was patient zero for most of the misinformation, but he's been penitent. The Modernist team had very little idea what Neapoitan pizza was 7 years ago, and they missed the mark in Modernist Bread, but, I think they're finally beginning to grasp the cultural ramifications. In Naples, and in Neapolitan pizzerias across the globe, less than 90 second pizza has been/is the norm. You might find one or two 2 minute outliers, but, VPN membership or no VPN membership, Neapolitan has historically been prepared within tight parameters- and to continue to extravagantly paint outside these lines is a huge slap in the face to Neapolitan culture and history- and a disservice to great pizza (Continuing rant indefinitely )
  23. scott123

    Over mixing

    Overmixing is gluten development. If you work with pastry flour and stick to pastry flour based recipes, less protein = less propensity to form gluten.
  24. To an outsider, drug addiction and alcoholism, assuming the addict is functioning (and boy did Anthony function), these demons can easily come across as joie de vivre. But then this happens and instantly the self medicating aspect becomes quite obvious. This being said, at this point, something isn't making sense here. I can't really say that I'm not buying it, because very little is being sold. I can't cry foul, because there is no narrative being presented to explain this- other than, of course, the depression-is-a-horrible-disease narrative. Every fiber of my being, though, says that there's more to this than just depression and possibly a bad break up. It's selfish, it's probably not respectful to his family's privacy or to his memory, but, fuck it, I want answers.
  25. scott123

    Inverter Microwaves

    I'm in the process of shopping for a new microwave and have stumbled across inverter technology. Of the people that own these types of machines, what are your thoughts? Experience has shown me that greater complexity usually results in a greater chance for failure/breakdown, but... the prospect of being able to slow the cooking (rather than just cycle the machine on and off) sounds appealing.
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