Modernist Bread Preview: What we've seen so far

[Chris Hennes]

1 minute ago, scott123 said:

Does the manner in which one arrives at Parmigiano Reggiano matter?  Are you really enjoying those Wisconsin knock offs?

The Wisconsin knock-offs don't taste the same. If you could arrive at something that actually tasted like Parmigiano Reggiano via some other method (Matter replicators, anyone? Sign me up! ) I'd happily eat it. To a good approximation I only care about the finished product. If you serve me a pizza that is functionally indistinguishable from a "True Verified Authentic Certified AVPN Neapolitan Pizza" then I don't care if it wasn't made the traditional way, and while of course it can't be labeled "AVPN," calling it "Neapolitan" as a descriptor seems completely reasonable to me. And I don't see how producing an excellent pizza can be disrespectful of the culture of Naples!

[Honkman]

35 minutes ago, scott123 said:

You can achieve great pizza without any kind of road map whatsoever.  But Neapolitan pizza has a great deal of wisdom and science behind it that makes it so beloved. ... 

 

As a scientist I care about the progress of science and don't ever believe that most things can't be improved with "newer" science - same with Neapolitan pizza - just because there is a "great deal of wisdom and science" in the making of this style of pizza doesn't mean you shouldn't utilize the progress of science over time to change/improve the making of Neapolitan pizza (and still call it a Neapolitan pizza). 

 

[Raamo]

Maybe we should call it a neo-Neapolitan pizza.

 

We make pizza 1-2 weekends a month - using ATK's recipe for the crust (pretty darn thin crust)- made 2 days in advance.  Cook at 550 in our oven on pizza mode (heat from above, below and convection)- with a stone (some day we'll get a steel, but while the stone isn't optimal it does work).  I've gotten pretty darn good at shaping the dough / rest to get exactly the right thickness etc. 

The sauce is our own creation as well - starting with marinara from MC.  Topics are simple - Hi quality Sausage or Pepperoni for my side, veg for both sides - and fresh moz w/ a layer of parmesan-reggiano buried deep. 

It's pretty freaking outstanding pizza - beats the pants off anything we can get in the burbs here in Minnesota.  

 

I don't fully understand what makes Neapolitan pizza so special - I just want good pizza.  So now that I have MC:Bread showing up soon - can they improve on ATK's dough - science must be done!   It seems that our oven working at 550 is not super wide spread - so MC:Bread has a recipe for dough optimized to be cooked at 550 degrees, what will that mean.  Will we on longer have to make this 2 days in advance to get the depth of flavor we love?  So many questions!!!

[scott123]

26 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

The Wisconsin knock-offs don't taste the same. If you could arrive at something that actually tasted like Parmigiano Reggiano via some other method (Matter replicators, anyone? Sign me up! ) I'd happily eat it. To a good approximation I only care about the finished product. If you serve me a pizza that is functionally indistinguishable from a "True Verified Authentic Certified AVPN Neapolitan Pizza" then I don't care if it wasn't made the traditional way, and while of course it can't be labeled "AVPN," calling it "Neapolitan" as a descriptor seems completely reasonable to me.

 

See, there's the problem.  You're going down the same rabbit hole as Heston.  You're mistakingly assuming that there's multiple routes to the same destination.  I don't have that flour, so I can use this flour and achieve the same result.  I don't have that oven that can bake pizza that quickly, but I can bake it a little slower,  I don't have that much time to ferment my dough, but I have this much time.  Every aspect  of the Neapolitan definition has been engineered to perfection. Every aspect has been honed to work with every other aspect.  It's all interconnected.  If you change the flour, you make something drastically different- and not just different to the obsessive's eye, but different for everyone.  If you extend the bake time, you ruin it. Period.  Unmalted Neapolitan flour has been engineered to be explosive and puffy and not burn too quickly at extreme temps, but, all of the traits that make it work perfectly at a super fast bake cause it to fail miserably at a slower one.  It never really browns well, and takes on a crusty/stale texture. 

 

There's a reason why Wisconsin parmesan knock offs don't taste the same.  They don't have the same cows, the same terroir, the same old country approaches. They can't achieve the same results.  If you don't replicate the formula, you don't get the same results. Garbage in, garbage out. And Neapolitan style is the same way.  If you change an aspect, it betrays the other aspects and it fails.

 

Now, some people like stale textured pizza. Not many.  But some.  But stale texture Neapolitan pizza didn't give it the prestige it has today and it's not what the people that toiled to develop it intended it be redefined as.  It's a cohesive unit that deserves to be preserved for posterity, like Parmigiano Reggiano, Champagne, and Balsamic Vinegar.  Just because the organization attempting to preserve it doesn't have a cadre of lawyers suing everyone on the planet that serves  up a defiled version of it, it doesn't trivialize it's value.

[chefmd]

I want to make bread and pizza at home and enjoy quality end product.  I do not have significant expertise and appreciate every short cut or scientific input that makes it easier for me.  I am sure that experienced professional bakers in bona fide certified traditional old fashioned bakeries/pizzerias will continue to do things their way.  I just want to be able to make something amazing at home!  

 

 

[Chris Hennes]

4 minutes ago, scott123 said:

You're mistakingly assuming that there's multiple routes to the same destination.

I'm assuming there are multiple routes because it's almost always true. This becomes more and more true as we better understand the exact physics behind the phenomena we are trying to replicate. Take kneading: you can make a bread by kneading the dough. If you do that, you shorten the proof time and get a loaf of bread faster. If you don't knead, it takes a couple more hours for the gluten to form. But you get the same final texture. So sure, you can't make just one change and expect to get the same result, but if you understand exactly what's going on, you can make combinations of changes that get the same end result.

[scott123]

1 hour ago, Honkman said:

As a scientist I care about the progress of science and don't ever believe that most things can't be improved with "newer" science - same with Neapolitan pizza - just because there is a "great deal of wisdom and science" in the making of this style of pizza doesn't mean you shouldn't utilize the progress of science over time to change/improve the making of Neapolitan pizza (and still call it a Neapolitan pizza). 

 

 

You seem to be under the impression that science only brings forward progress.  THIS is not progress:

 

On 2/25/2011 at 7:31 PM, Dave the Cook said:

Just so everyone knows that we're talking about, here are a couple of photos (screen shots, actually) from Modernist Cuisine that show a side view of the pizza as it's cooking, and the finished product (sorry, no upskirts).

(Photos copyright The Cooking Lab, LLC; used with permission.)

 

The idea that you can take traditional Neapolitan dough, bake it longer and have the same stellar results has misguided neophyte pizza makers in the thousands. I have met thousands of beginning pizza makers who have been misled by this garbage and who've paid the price in sub par pizza.  And this is not hyperbole.

 

And, just to be clear, scientists have the power to redefine all regional specialties?  Stephen Hawking could, tomorrow, come out and say, champagne should only be made with strawberries?  Wouldn't you think the French would have something to say about that? Even if strawberries made better champagne than grapes, he would certainly have to sell the French on the idea in order to change the definition.

 

It really shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp that the people of the region where a product was developed have the right to define it.  Lawyers or not, governmental intrusion or not.  That's just common sense.

 

You live in a town. Nathan lives in a town. Chris Young lives in a town.  If any of your science produces a better mousetrap, name your pizza style after your town. Enough with the appropriation.

Edited November 8, 2017 by scott123 (log)

[scott123]

37 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

I'm assuming there are multiple routes because it's almost always true.

 

It takes an unbelievable amount of hubris to assume that no one has ever tried other flours for Neapolitan pizza, that no one has ever turned down the heat and tried baking it for longer.  That kind of no-one-existed-before-me thinking is something that I'd expect from Kenji, but, as I've said before, I expect more from Nathan- and Heston- and Chris (Young ).  When a large city devotes most of their efforts towards a single product for 150 years, chances are that they've worked through most of the permutations.  Have they tried working with polydextrose? Of course not.  But that's not what I'm discussing here.  I'm talking about  Nathan and Friends ignoring  a massive chunk of wisdom in their first book, and the price home bakers have paid, and are continuing to pay.

 

And the most frustrating aspect of all is that every successful aspect of Neapolitan pizza is firmly rooted in science- not that the Neapolitans who developed it were scientists- at least not by title, but they were able, through vast trial and error, to figure out what works and what doesn't- and the science supports it all.  So, if ANYONE should understand the science behind Neapolitan pizza, it should be people that are calling themselves scientists. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by scott123 (log)

[Honkman]

19 minutes ago, scott123 said:

And, just to be clear, scientists have the power to redefine all regional specialties?  

It really shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp that the people of the region where a product was developed have the right to define it. 

You live in a town. Nathan lives in a town. Chris Young lives in a town.  If any of your science produces a better mousetrap, name your pizza style after your town. Enough with the appropriation.

 

It's not scientists or people of the region or Nathan who ultimate define what a product is called but ultimately whoever makes the dish. It is the same discussion as with "authentic" dishes - what you define as authentic might not be the same what I define as authentic and we are both right.  Where you are fundamentally wrong (even beyond just food) is " You're mistakingly assuming that there's multiple routes to the same destination" - yes, there are always multiple routes to the same destination outside of food, within food and also Neapolitan pizza. It's quite preposterous to believe there is only one way to make Neapolitan pizza and every other approach in the future can only lead to inferior results. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Honkman (log)

[rotuts]

would Neapolitan pizza in NYC

 

be the same as in Naples ?

 

not of course Naples  FL

 

Napoli ?

 

interesting test right there .

 

 

[cakewalk]

2 hours ago, scott123 said:

But Neapolitan pizza has a great deal of wisdom and science behind it that makes it so beloved.

Kinda like you, huh?  

[Honkman]

20 minutes ago, rotuts said:

would Neapolitan pizza in NYC

 

be the same as in Naples ?

 

not of course Naples  FL

 

Napoli ?

 

interesting test right there .

 

 

 

The Neapolitan pizza in two different pizzerias in Naples wouldn't be the same

[Anna N]

On 2017-10-26 at 11:57 PM, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Thanks, time will tell!  Wonder why they explicitly mentioned a rotor-stator homogenizer?

 

I just checked the index. There is an entry for homing pigeons but nothing for homogenizer. 

[scott123]

16 minutes ago, Honkman said:

 

It's not scientists or people of the region or Nathan who ultimate define what a product is called but ultimately whoever makes the dish. It is the same discussion as with "authentic" dishes - what you define as authentic might not be the same what I define as authentic and we are both right.  (And I don't believe in the value of Where you are fundamentally wrong (even beyond just food) is " You're mistakingly assuming that there's multiple routes to the same destination" - yes, there are always multiple routes to the same destination outside of food, within food and also Neapolitan pizza. It's quite preposterous to believe there is only one way to make Neapolitan pizza and every other approach in the future can only lead to inferior results. 

 

Whether something is inferior or superior is your opinion. While I have talked about the inferiority of the results from Nathan's teachings, that's just my opinion. What's the phrase? Opinions are like... something? At the end of the day neither of our opinions matters when it comes to allowing Neapolitans to define their regional food. When San Diego comes up with the best ___________ in the world, then, perhaps, you'll have a little more empathy.

 

And I'm not talking about all food.  There's many pathways to gumbo.  But certain foods, certain products are very well defined, and deservedly so, because, if they were not well defined,, their evolution would most likely be their ruin. There aren't multiple paths towards Parmigiano Reggiano- only one.  And while I grumble just about every time I take out my wallet to pay for it, I'm grateful that someone, somewhere took the time to meticulously outline that path.  Will Parmigiano Reggiano eventually be improved upon?  I certainly hope so. But they will have to call it something else.  This very simple rule where you can't call something Parmigiano Reggiano unless it's been made a particular way helps to make sure that when I walk into a store and buy some, I'm getting the king of cheeses, and not some pale imitation. 

 

The Champagne region's zealous protection of their trademark has always felt a bit more mercenary than culturally reverent, but that's a single path as well.  The Californians can tell you that the sparkling wines they produce are comparable, if not superior, but I think it's appropriate that they have to use the term "sparkling wine." 

 

To their credit, the Neapolitans haven't tried to enforce their definition on the rest of the world.  But it still doesn't change the fact that it's an incredibly well defined 'thing,' that has standards set forward by the people from the region that created it.  I'm not Neapolitan, I don't get to say what Neapolitan pizza is and isn't.  Nor are you. Nor is Nathan. If you know of any Neapolitans who feel differently, I'm all ears. 

[scott123]

50 minutes ago, cakewalk said:

Kinda like you, huh?  

 

That's incredibly kind of you to say, but, if you look around, I am not beloved.  This has been, and always will be Nathanville, and, as far as the fanboys go, I'm the village idiot

[scott123]

1 hour ago, rotuts said:

would Neapolitan pizza in NYC

 

be the same as in Naples ?

 

You'll find trivial changes, such as Da Michele's substitution of seed oil for olive oil, but, I've never come across a Neapolitan pizzeria, domestic or abroad who varied substantially from the standard.  The flour, the fermentation regime, the dough handling, the dough ball size, the mixing technique, the oven, the bake time- it all matches up across the board.  Neapolitans, and the people that have learned from Neapolitans, know exactly what Neapolitan pizza is. There's practically no dissent whatsoever- and for pizza, that's insane.  It's only the outsiders, the carpetbaggers, the, for lack of a better word, the gringos, who are hell bent on transforming Neapolitan pizza to their will- who ride the backs of the multitudes who've labored anonymously before them, but when asked to show some respect for these ancestors, they get pretty peeved.

Edited November 8, 2017 by scott123 (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

What hath my innocent pizza question wrought?

 

[weinoo]

@scott123's argument about what "Neapolitan" pizza is, is certainly estimable, and through my evolution, I agree with him.  I agree because I feel the same way about many foods and drinks; once you've added green apple schnapps and lemon juice to vodka, it's not a martini any more, it's a fucking nightmare. But people call it an apple martini.

 

The current issue of Saveur has a great article (and accompanying recipes) about Chad Robertson and Tartine Bakery and Manufactory.  It ought to be required reading for everyone who purchases Modernist Bread.

 

Quote

"Tartine's weapon for nailing these contrasts is its master dough, which Chad and his team are constantly perfecting."

 

But nowhere are they constantly perfecting their dough with additions from the modernist pantry.

 

[gfweb]

This debate reminds me of the issue of "advanced metrics" in baseball. 

 

Old school says the scout's eyes and stopwatch are the only way to judge talent.

 

Modernists say that a wealth of stats can be analyzed to predict who will be a great player and who won't.

 

Who's right?  Both are right in their way.  The two methods complement each other

[weinoo]

The difference in baseball, of course, is the unforeseen stuff like injuries.

 

The difference in bread baking, of course, is the unforeseen stuff like the actual temperature and humidity of the place where the baking is happening, the moisture content of the flour, etc. And doesn't the ability to add a pinch more flour, or a tablespoonful more water come from actually handling the dough...and experience?

[chefmd]

2 hours ago, weinoo said:

@scott123's argument about what "Neapolitan" pizza is, is certainly estimable, and through my evolution, I agree with him.  I agree because I feel the same way about many foods and drinks; once you've added green apple schnapps and lemon juice to vodka, it's not a martini any more, it's a fucking nightmare. But people call it an apple martini.

 

 

Now, that is the statement I can agree with :).  No matter how many modernist ingredients you add to an apple martini!  I can stand behind @weinoo martini in his avatar. 

[chromedome]

7 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

What hath my innocent pizza question wrought?

 

Why, the usual confrontation of tradition vs. innovation, of course. What else? 

 

To put it another way, we had equally passionate, thoughtful and intelligent people debating sharply divergent opinions, with some asperity - we've all had this debate before - but without unnecessary rancor or ad hominem attacks. Also, with an audience open to hearing and evaluating new arguments, should any be discovered. I'm always good with that. 

 

Of course, it's worth bearing in mind that today's tradition was yesterday's innovation. Tomatoes themselves are a relatively recent addition to the Mediterranean canon, and it's not hard to imagine a few-centuries-ago Neapolitan pizzaiola sneering at a red-topped flatbread and declaring "Call that thing whatever you want, but it's NOT pizza!"

[Raamo]

2 minutes ago, chromedome said:

Of course, it's worth bearing in mind that today's tradition was yesterday's innovation. Tomatoes themselves are a relatively recent addition to the Mediterranean canon, and it's not hard to imagine a few-centuries-ago Neapolitan pizzaiola sneering at a red-topped flatbread and declaring "Call that thing whatever you want, but it's NOT pizza!"

 

This 1000x - Change is hard for humans   Look at how food has changed even in the last 20 years.  As I like to remind folks - you don't know what you don't know and no one knows everything!  I have an idea what I like and don't like in food but that's taken decades to figure out and every so often I'm surprised at some new revelation.  I don't expect that will stop any time soon.

[chromedome]

27 minutes ago, Raamo said:

 

 I have an idea what I like and don't like in food but that's taken decades to figure out and every so often I'm surprised at some new revelation.  I don't expect that will stop any time soon.

Not if you're doing it right...

[Raamo]

Just now, chromedome said:

Not if you're doing it right...

 

 You mean traveling the world and trying different things is doing it wrong?  My family are a bunch of Swedes (who came to States in the 1850s) - but this means salt and pepper is the spices used.  So I grew up eating very boring bad food.  

Now we travel around the world and I've discovered things I've never had before and are stupid good.  Who knows what will be the next staple in our house... So enlighten me - what is the right way ;-)

 

On topic of MC:Bread - turns out Amazon screwed up and didn't tell me my valid payment wasn't valid in their system (likely because the order is 14 months old) so my MC:Bread hasn't even shipped yet - it's coming next day now - because their system messed up - so I'll have it my Monday at the latest.  So Until then I hope contest #2 item shows up today since the last one showed up last week on Thursday.