Cuts of beef: identifying, choosing, using

[FeChef]

2 hours ago, scubadoo97 said:

This is typical shoulder roast

What you posted looks like a chuck roast. What i bought is nothing like chuck in terms of how its cut, and how the grain runs. What i got looks more like a eye round roast but not lean at all, lots of marbled fat and that sinew i mentioned running down the center. Again, it looks like someone took 3 or 4 flat iron steaks and meat glued them together.

[btbyrd]

On 11/26/2017 at 12:56 PM, FeChef said:

its already been in for 12 hours @ 136F , then 155F for a few hours, and i'll probably go to 158F for a few hours.    .....

... I like the fall apart texture for sliced chuck roast where its barely holding together by the connective tissue thats broken down. It absorbs my homemade double concentrated beef stock/au jus.

 

Why would you cook it in stages like that? Is there any reason at all to cook at 136 if you're going to go 22 degrees higher for a few hours later in the cook process? Also, SV fall-apart braises are gross. Pressure cookers are much better for that kind of thing.

 

On 11/26/2017 at 4:47 PM, scubadoo97 said:

Picked up two shoulder roasts today since they were on sale.  Removed the thick tendon dividing the roast and now wondering if I want to SV  the larger pieces at 121+/- for a good 12 hrs or so.  They are very lean

 

12 hours at 121? Sounds like a good way to die.

[rotuts]

whether or not @FeChef temps are correct

 

there is something to SV at different temps in a step wise fashion

 

@PedroG

 

had a table way back that outlined the different connective tissue that denatured at different temps.

 

the idea is that in doing stages  the meat never contracted 

 

thus not forcing jus out of the meat into the bag.

 

if you start high  

 

lets say in low-temp-braising range

 

the meat would contract and that might be considered a loss to the meat

 

unless you are making a stew.

 

PC meat  

 

for me   gets done fast

 

but the meat itself ends up being dry    in the manner of an oven braise.

 

Ive never got around to the step-wise  ' braise '

 

but Id bet its much tastier than a braise that starts w the final temp.

[scubadoo97]

5 hours ago, btbyrd said:

 

Why would you cook it in stages like that? Is there any reason at all to cook at 136 if you're going to go 22 degrees higher for a few hours later in the cook process? Also, SV fall-apart braises are gross. Pressure cookers are much better for that kind of thing.

 

 

12 hours at 121? Sounds like a good way to die.

Thanks.   A Typo.  I meant to type 131x12 from a NYT article.   I actually ended up doing them at 140 for 6 hrs.  Just didn't have the time to wait

[FeChef]

Sorry i am late to update my thread. This cut worked perfect for my purpose. 136.5F for 12 hours, 158F for 12 hours, the sliced meat was very tender, and very juicy. My only regret was slicing on the thicker side. I went with 3/16 and while still great, and better then any chuck roast ive used for this purpose, i think 1/8 thickness would have made it 10x better. Me being lazy is to blame. I decided to use my Magna Wonder Knife instead of my hobart slicer because i didn't want the extra clean up for only a 3lb roast. The roast was chilled but i didnt want to slice too thin with the Magna Knife and end up with crumbled meat. But in hindsight, the slices would have held up even at 1/16 if i wanted to go that thin. Oh well, maybe i will get lucky and find this cut again sometime in the next decade.

 

I cut out the sinew/gristle line in the center after it was cooked, chilled and sliced. It wasn't too difficult, and the dog seemed to enjoy it.

Edited December 5, 2017 by FeChef (log)

[Tuber magnatum]

On 11/28/2017 at 8:21 AM, rotuts said:

whether or not @FeChef temps are correct

 

there is something to SV at different temps in a step wise fashion

 

@PedroG

 

had a table way back that outlined the different connective tissue that denatured at different temps.

 

the idea is that in doing stages  the meat never contracted 

 

thus not forcing jus out of the meat ....

 

Just by chance I am reading about cooking meat in Modernist Cuisine, Volume 3.  Although probably overly simplistic, there are two important enzymes involved in breaking down collagen and proteins: Calpain and Cathepsin.  Like all enzymes, their activity increases with heat up to the point that the heat starts to breakdown the enzyme itself.  Calpain denatures at 40C / 105F.  If you cook at a higher temperature this enzyme is deactivated and doesn't contribute to tenderization.  Its maximal activity is just below this temperature.

 

So the idea is cook for a period of time just below this temperature and then when it has done its job, raise and hold the temperature to maximize the activity of Cathepsin at just below 50C / 122F.  Apparently this doesn't work for meats that are already tender which benefit from quick cooking as a general rule, or for poultry, pork, and other lighter coloured meats in which their enzymes are faster acting than in red meat.  It would be overkill.

 

Above 50 / 122, a different chemical reaction occurs, gelatinization of collagen.  The third chemical reaction occurs which is contraction of collagen and protein which squeezes out water drying meat.  This is noticeable  above at 58C / 135F,  and increases with temperature. 

[Smithy]

Nice summary, @Tuber magnatum.  Thanks for writing that up. 

[rotuts]

@Tuber magnatum

 

Thanks for the info.

 

i have that somewhere from PedroG

 

but no idea where .

[FeChef]

14 hours ago, rotuts said:

@Tuber magnatum

 

Thanks for the info.

 

i have that somewhere from PedroG

 

but no idea where .

PedroG mentioned that tissue contracts at temps above 136.5 At 136.5 these tissues break down. So starting at that temp breaks that tissue down before it has a chance to contract and squeeze juices out of the meat. 

That is what stuck in my head for years and its held true.

[btbyrd]

The whole issue of enzymatic tenderization isn't really relevant to this discussion. The temps we're talking about are much too high. I also have a priori reasons to be suspicious of low-temp tenderization of beef (in large part because the enzymes are mostly inactive after the time involved in the beef aging process) but I don't want to go into them and give that theory any more publicity than it's already gotten. If low-temp enzymatic tenderization was a fantastic idea, MC or ChefSteps or someone other than random internet forum dudes would have made a big deal about it. But it isn't so they didn't. And not just because of liability issues (though those are heavy; most everyone I've seen who swears by the 105-122F stepwise SV tenderization process seems like a goon who would rather poison their family than try a proper triangle test to see if the risk was worth it). Enzymes aside, tissue contracts when you cook it. At 130F or 140F, it's still going to contract. There is nothing magical about 136.5F. If there is, I'd love to see a proper citation (or better yet, a well-done SV experiment on YouTube that isn't performed by goons). There's juice all over the place at 130F, even for just a couple hours. The idea that something's going to be radically more juicy if you cook it at 135F for 12 hours and then jump to 160F for another 12 hours seems like magical thinking to me. I'm willing to be persuaded. But... *citation needed

 

 

[FeChef]

4 hours ago, btbyrd said:

The whole issue of enzymatic tenderization isn't really relevant to this discussion. The temps we're talking about are much too high. I also have a priori reasons to be suspicious of low-temp tenderization of beef (in large part because the enzymes are mostly inactive after the time involved in the beef aging process) but I don't want to go into them and give that theory any more publicity than it's already gotten. If low-temp enzymatic tenderization was a fantastic idea, MC or ChefSteps or someone other than random internet forum dudes would have made a big deal about it. But it isn't so they didn't. And not just because of liability issues (though those are heavy; most everyone I've seen who swears by the 105-122F stepwise SV tenderization process seems like a goon who would rather poison their family than try a proper triangle test to see if the risk was worth it). Enzymes aside, tissue contracts when you cook it. At 130F or 140F, it's still going to contract. There is nothing magical about 136.5F. If there is, I'd love to see a proper citation (or better yet, a well-done SV experiment on YouTube that isn't performed by goons). There's juice all over the place at 130F, even for just a couple hours. The idea that something's going to be radically more juicy if you cook it at 135F for 12 hours and then jump to 160F for another 12 hours seems like magical thinking to me. I'm willing to be persuaded. But... *citation needed

 

 

To each their own. I swear by it, it has never let me down. Show me real world proof or keep your opinions to your self.

[btbyrd]

I'm sure the two-temp method produced good results. The question is if they're fundamentally better (or even discernibly different) results from using other temperatures. To my knowledge, nobody has tested that in any controlled way. PedroG outlined what such an experiment might look like, but I couldn't find anyone in the SV thread who actually took up the challenge. I would amend Pedro's initial proposed experiment to include weighing the meat before/after cooking to see if there's a significant difference in moisture loss (since that's what we're interested in). At any rate, PedroG's hypothesis wasn't arbitrary, and he outlined the reasons for thinking that the two step process might benefit cuts that have thick tendons. But is it actually true? Who knows. (Seriously, if anyone knows, let us know!)  The "Enemy of Quality" part of me thinks it probably doesn't matter very much for something that you're going to cook until it's falling apart and then sauce with jus. Perceived juiciness in braises can be misleading anyway, given the mouth-coating and meat-coating gelatin that's all over the place. Hence my suggestion about weighing the meat in the experiment rather than relying on subjective measures. 

 

Anyway, I can't find anything anywhere about 136.5F (or whatever) being some sort of magic temperature, and that's the thing that seemed weirdest to me about the above procedure. That temp is not something that came up in the above posts from PedroG (who simply suggested that people cook below 140F for the initial step). Collagen will denature and protein will contract at 130F. It will do it more/faster at higher temperatures. I know I'm not telling you anything new here, but if someone could tell me anything new about how collagen behaves in the mid-130's, I'd much appreciate it.

[FeChef]

I wish i could find the link to PedroG's finding but it was so long ago its probably lost. Im sure others remember as well as i do, that he mentioned that 136 was the temp in which certain tissue's contracted causing juices to squeeze out more rapidly before the said tissue broke down. So staying under that temp for 6 or more hours resulted in less moisture loss.

[rotuts]

I have PedroG's info somewhere  

 

it might take me a few days to dig up as Im fairly busy doing

 

nothing important nor interesting.

 

Im fairly sure its similar to the post by

 

@Tuber magnatum

 

the issue for me is to someday try it and see and taste the results.

 

after all , had I not tried SV  Id never have tasted rare and tender Chuck.

[Kim Shook]

I know this will sound crazy, but they serve "roast beef" once a week at the rehab center that my mom is in right now and it is amazingly tasty and tender.  I'm quite sure it is NOT an expensive cut of meat.  But it isn't chuck or eye of round.  It is usually cooked medium-well and sliced fairly thin.  It has a thin layer of fat on one side.  Any ideas?  

[Anna N]

It’s not a cheap roast but by no means the most expensive either.

 

That link doesn’t seem to work let me try another one. Here

Edited September 24, 2018 by Anna N
Removed a nonworking link and added a working link (log)

[Paul Bacino]

Maybe this:

 

https://www.cooksinfo.com/steamship-round

[Lisa Shock]

THESE pictures may be useful.

[IowaDee]

Is there a chance you could ask the kitchen staff what cut  they use?  Tell them how wonderful it is and they may well be willing to share with you.

[DocDougherty]

Look at the chart of beef cuts and see if you can identify it

If not eye of round then perhaps top round (or more likely bottom round).

Most likely braised but perhaps cooked sous vide.

[Kim Shook]

11 hours ago, DocDougherty said:

Look at the chart of beef cuts and see if you can identify it

If not eye of round then perhaps top round (or more likely bottom round).

Most likely braised but perhaps cooked sous vide.

Looking at the chart, I'm thinking (like you) either top round or bottom round.  If I can find them, I'll do an experiment!  Thank you.  

[Kim Shook]

Mr. Kim ordered 3 tri tips at our local (Richmond VA area) Publix.  This is what we got:

 

Nothing online seems to agree about what this cut is or whether it is considered tri tip.  Considering that we now have three of these, if they AREN'T tri tips, can we still cook them the same way?  Thanks!

[rotuts]

@Kim Shook 

 

interesting .

 

you've seen what try-tip looks like on-line :

 

https://www.beefitswhatsfordinner.com/cuts/cut/2443/tri-tip-roast

 

Id love to see what's in the packages 

 

out of the package 

 

for fun.

 

any meat , of any kind can be cooked

 

SV , initially or totally.

 

remembering  that the Bath Temp ==> ' doneness '

 

ie rare , med etc

 

works for all meat(s) 

 

time in the bath ==>  tenderness.

 

with in reason .  there are those pesky 

 

'' mealy ' issues.

 

pick your temp for doneness 

 

and then try to guess the tenderness time.

 

a massive feature of SV :   once you get  into

 

' hours '  in the bath

 

w properly handled meat

 

an hour or so more , won't take any differenc

 

unlike that extra hour on a RedHotBBQ.

 

enjoy !

 

try one, keep track , and then do the second 

 

a bit differently based on your first result.

 

etc.

 

what fun !

 

[heidih]

Good explanation here  https://www.bbqnewsletter.com/features/picanha-beef-cut-you-must-try

[heidih]

And tri-tip v picanha  https://beef2live.com/story-picanha-brazil-beef-cut-137-107632  Never personally seen or used picanha but these seem like informed explanations. Tri-tip rules in  Southern