Making Pizza at Home/Homemade Pizza

[Duvel]

19 hours ago, AlaMoi said:

definitely an interesting "trick"

 

mine take about 8-9 minutes to finish.  it will be interesting to see how naked on the stone differs.

 

mfg

x-Gaienhofen

x-Schweinfurt

 

 

That is quite a long time for using a baking stone - and yet a pretty tasty looking pie! How do you preheat the stone, how long and what is your distance to the broiler element, if I may ask.

 

I was actually wondering why your paper at the uncovered parts was not burnt ☺️

 

My pizza cooks in about 3.5 min and the trick was actually also a necessity, because the excess paper would start to carbonize under „my“ conditions ...

[AlaMoi]

I preheat the oven to 450'F / 235'C with the stone, for about an hour.

I turn the heat back to 425' / 210'Cwhen I put the pizza in - it's typically 5-6" from the top elements.

 

the crust is nicely crisp - I give it 5 minutes to cool on the rack, cut with a 10" chef's knife and it 'snaps' as the cut is made on a wooden board...

 

in this pix you see the stone "protects" the paper - the square corners sticking out browned but not the stone area.

I think it also depends on the parchment paper - some seem to brown go crisp at lower temps.

[weinoo]

Since I rearranged the racks in my oven, and reinstalled the original baking steel I've had in the closet for like 2 years, it was time to try my hand at pizza again. So an evening or two ago I put together Jim Lahey's overnight pizza dough (practically no-knead) from his book (eG-friendly Amazon.com link), called strangely enough...

 

 

And I decided I'd also cheat a bit, with the parchment trick (I also use it with Dutch oven breads, so they don't stick to the proofing basket).

 

 

Believe me, I'll be working on getting a nice, round circle for the rest of my life.

 

 

I also plan on moving the steel to the top shelf for future pizza bakes, but it was on a lower shelf and that's where it remained last night.

 

 

Really the best results I've had at home so far. Then I made a pie with more toppings. No, not stupid toppings, just more sauce and cheese. Oh, and hyper-local basil, added to the cooked pie.

 

 

We were happy. Even if I failed geometry.

 

 

RoaSted romanesco alongside.

Edited December 10, 2020 by weinoo (log)

[shain]

@weinoo My 2 cents from using a similar method.

 

A) Place the baking steel in the top third of the oven. Turn on the top broiler before shaping the pizza. I then bake with it being on for 3 min and the pizzas is ready. But you can turn it off if the top chars too fast and the bottom does not get enough color. 

 

B) Either mix the cheese with a bit of water or milk before topping, or spray some water on top before baking. If possible, keep the cheese chilled until used.

[weinoo]

2 hours ago, shain said:

@weinoo My 2 cents from using a similar method.

 

A) Place the baking steel in the top third of the oven. Turn on the top broiler before shaping the pizza. I then bake with it being on for 3 min and the pizzas is ready. But you can turn it off if the top chars too fast and the bottom does not get enough color. 

 

B) Either mix the cheese with a bit of water or milk before topping, or spray some water on top before baking. If possible, keep the cheese chilled until used.

OK - next try!  I do have the steel in the top third of the oven now. (Though I'm tired of moving it around - sucker weighs 25 lbs.!)

 

I like the water spray idea.

[shain]

It's a good workout to burn off the pizzas.

Edited December 17, 2020 by shain (log)

[weinoo]

2 hours ago, shain said:

It's a good workout burn off the pizzas.

My back!

[scott123]

On 12/17/2020 at 7:14 AM, weinoo said:

(Though I'm tired of moving it around - sucker weighs 25 lbs.!)

 

Thick aluminum plate can match (and exceed) steel at about half the weight.  Your goal of trimming another minute off the bake time- aluminum can achieve that- with one hand tied behind it's back.  

 

Another option for a less back breaking plate would be taking your existing steel to a distributor and getting it cut. Cuts are usually around $10.  Just make sure you run the seam from side to side. If the cut runs from front to back, it will contour to the bowing shelf and sag.

 

 

On 12/16/2020 at 6:38 PM, weinoo said:

Total cook time about 4.5 minutes, which I think may be as short as it can get, though I'll shoot to shave another minute off.

 

Paper is wood, and wood is an insulator.  It won't trim a minute, but, if you can launch without the parchment, you'll trim off about 30 seconds (and see a difference).  

 

Another way to trim off more time- and obtain a dough that's exponentially easier to stretch and launch, would be a more traditional pizza dough recipe.  High hydration doughs are great for bread, but, in pizza, they extend bake times, hinder oven spring and produce sticky slack doughs that are much harder to stretch- and launch.  This is why you won't find doughs much higher than about 62% water in both New York and Naples.

 

What flour are you using?

Edited December 24, 2020 by scott123 (log)

[weinoo]

11 minutes ago, scott123 said:

What flour are you using?

 

You mean I'm supposed to remember or write this stuff down?  That's harder than driving up to Patsy's or Louie & Ernie's!

 

I think I used 1/2 King Arthur Sir Galahad and half King Arthur Italian.  I have a number of different flours I am trying to use up, so I can then restock properly as I learn more!

[weinoo]

@scott123 - I think I'm using Lahey's no-knead pizza dough recipe, which calls for 70% hydration and an 18-hour room temp ferment (unfortunately nowhere in my apartment is it what most humans would call room temp - it's warm!). I will drop it down into the range you mention, knead slightly, and see what that does for me.

 

What easily purchased flours do you like most?

[shain]

2 hours ago, scott123 said:

Thick aluminum plate can match (and exceed) steel at about half the weight.  

 

Very true. The reason being aluminum is more conductive, which leads to faster heat transfer.

[scott123]

3 hours ago, weinoo said:

 

half King Arthur Italian.  

 

I'm all about the waste not want not, but, at 8.5% protein, the KA Italian really has no place in pizza.  If any of the pies you posted here were 50% KA Italian AND 70% hydration, then I tip my hat to your impressive stretching skills. 50/50 Galahad/Italian and 70% water is bordering on completely unstretchable.

 

2 hours ago, weinoo said:

What easily purchased flours do you like most?

 

The short answer: outside of the pandemic, in your average oven, nothing touches King Arthur bread flour.  Right now, though, Restaurant Depot is open to the public, which makes getting bromated bread flour (like Full Strength) a much easier purchase.  A 50 lb. bag isn't an easy store, though, especially not in an apartment setting.

 

So, in your average oven, bromated bread flour is ideal, but bread flour (stick to KA, avoid other brands) is a close second.

 

But, that's an average oven- with an average broiler that can't come close to Neapolitan leoparding in 90 seconds.  With your oven, thick aluminum, a quality 00 and less water might flirt with a Neapolitan end result.  Personally, I think authentic Neapolitan dough baked for 3 minutes is pretty horrible (the texture suffers tremendously), but if you can hit 2, and you may have a broiler than can hit 2... it might be worth going down that rabbit hole.

 

That's pretty obsessive, though. Imo, in a home oven, with steel (or aluminum), you can't beat KABF, 61% hydration, a little oil and a little sugar.

 

Btw, any dough can become no knead if you have the patience.  Mix it until it comes together, then set it aside for 10-20 minutes, then give it a knead or two, and, if it isn't smooth, give it another 10-20 minutes and another knead.  Wetter doughs are a little easier to mix, but, if you mix the dough quickly (you get a second or two while the water starts to absorb), drier doughs can come together without too much perspiration. As long as the dough is smooth before it starts to proof, you're good to go- you can give it more/less rests or shorter/longer ones, and as long as you don't forget the dough completely, you're good. The trickiest part of this process is learning to recognize smoothness.  

 

Also, at room temp, yeast doubles about every hour.  This means that to hit the right level of fermentation at 18 hours, you need to start with a minuscule amount of yeast- and be incredibly precise about measuring it. I know overnight room temp proofing folks that build DIY proofing cabinets and weigh their yeast with jeweler scales, but, if you want to make your life a little easier, slowing down the yeast with refrigeration gives you a much bigger window on  the back end.  Just make sure the dough fully comes up to temp before you stretch it- maybe 4 hours, 3 if your room is above 75.

Edited December 24, 2020 by scott123 (log)

[scott123]

10 minutes ago, shain said:

 

Very true. The reason being aluminum is more conductive, which leads to faster heat transfer.

 

Exactly.  Basically, conductivity is king (to a point).  Steel trumps stone, and aluminum trumps steel.  While my pizza related issues with Nathan, Chris and Heston are well documented within these walls, I have to give them props for bringing aluminum plate for pizza to the attention of the masses.  Why Kenji latched onto steel and completely ignored aluminum is a bit of a head scratcher, but, if anyone should be able to see the innate value of aluminum for pizza, it should be the Modernist Cuisinists here.

[weinoo]

I think it’s all about the sound of the name.  Just imagine a Modernist Baking Aluminum. Doesn’t sound half as cool as a Modernist Baking Steel, does it?

[FeChef]

My most unusual toppings i did that was fantastic was thinly sliced corned beef, sourkruat, baby swiss, and a drizzle of thosand island after baking.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Just to add my vote, in my oven aluminum works better.

 

[Orbit]

OK, stupid question here: I cook pizza on a baking stone in my (electric) oven. Would I get noticeably better results with a baking steel?

[jimb0]

29 minutes ago, Orbit said:

OK, stupid question here: I cook pizza on a baking stone in my (electric) oven. Would I get noticeably better results with a baking steel?

 

extremely not a stupid question at all.

 

sort of depends on what you want to invest in time, effort, and money, and whether the results you'd get are important enough for you to care. there is a noticeable difference, but it's less revolutionary (imo) over a stone than using a stone tends to be over a simple pan.

 

kenji has some good side-by-sides here if you're looking for pictures showing the explicit differences you can get between them; just search for "stone vs" in the article to jump to the comparison:

 

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2012/09/the-pizza-lab-the-baking-steel-delivers.html

 

there are some aficionados here and around the net which will also try and suggest using aluminum in place of steel. really it comes down to what you can get and how you'll use it. i admit i do like having the steel and wouldn't really want to go back without it.

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by jimb0 (log)

[weinoo]

11 hours ago, jimb0 said:

sort of depends on what you want to invest in time, effort, and money, and whether the results you'd get are important enough for you to care.

 

Very true of this, and many other aspects of cooking.  Like what's most important. It's like my pursuit of ingredients which are important to me and my cooking. to others, not so much.

[scott123]

On 1/14/2021 at 9:37 PM, Orbit said:

OK, stupid question here: I cook pizza on a baking stone in my (electric) oven. Would I get noticeably better results with a baking steel?

 

Better is relative.  For pizza, heat is leavening and char.  You proof your dough to (ideally) load it up with as much carbon dioxide as possible, but, it's the heat of the oven that's responsible for both expanding that gas and boiling the water in the dough into rapidly expanding steam. As you bake cooler, as you bake longer, you lose puff, you lose volume. Some styles, like Chicago thin and American/chain style favor longer, cooler bakes, but, when you get into NY style, a 4-6 minute bake on steel/aluminum is almost universally favored over a 9+ minute bake on stone.

[AlaMoi]

On 1/14/2021 at 9:37 PM, Orbit said:

OK, stupid question here: I cook pizza on a baking stone in my (electric) oven. Would I get noticeably better results with a baking steel?

 

the debate on stone/steel/aluminum rages on.

seldom is asked the question:  why must a pizza bake in less than two minutes?

I use a stone, it takes 10-12 minutes.  I don't have an issue with that.

[scott123]

13 minutes ago, AlaMoi said:

seldom is asked the question:  why must a pizza bake in less than two minutes?

 

I think the citizens of Naples would have an answer for you  

Just to be clear, though, I'm not advocating sub 2 minute Neapolitan pizza.  None of the materials being discussed can achieve that in a home oven.  

[shain]

10 hours ago, AlaMoi said:

why must a pizza bake in less than two minutes?

I use a stone, it takes 10-12 minutes.  I don't have an issue with that.

 

Just different style of pizza. I wouldn't want a thick crust pizza baked so hot, obviously. But for a semi Neapolitan pizza, this Make a different. 

It's a bit like the discussion on wok hei in home cooking. Is it necessary or even desired in every dish? - no, but for those who love it's flavor in certain dishes it's worth working for.

[scott123]

8 hours ago, shain said:

 

Just different style of pizza. I wouldn't want a thick crust pizza baked so hot, obviously. But for a semi Neapolitan pizza, this Make a different. 

It's a bit like the discussion on wok hei in home cooking. Is it necessary or even desired in every dish? - no, but for those who love it's flavor in certain dishes it's worth working for.

 

Not to split hairs, but semi Neapolitan and wok hei are, for the most part, realms of the obsessive.  Steel plate was cutting edge a decade ago, but now it's pretty much become the defacto method for making pizza at home.  It's everywhere.  Every major book on pizza mentions steel.  I've even seen Chris Bianco talking about it on Jimmy Kimmel. 

In the course of my travels, I've probably run across 3000 people who've purchased steel plates.  I do spend a lot of time with obsessives, but I also brush shoulders with plenty of folks that just want have fun making pizzas with their families and not make a big thing out of it.  Out of all these thousands of steel adopters, obsessive or not, young or old, beginner or master, not a single one has ever preferred the 10+ minute bakes they were getting on stone to the  sub 7 minute bakes on steel.  Now, out of this group, a handful of people had have odd broiler configurations that didn't play well with steel, so not everyone that buys steel is grinning ear from ear, but, that's the oven's fault (and the steel plate manufacturer's fault for fraudulent marketing), not the steel itself. 

[AlaMoi]

".....realms of the obsessive......."

indeed.  I've spent lots of time in Italy - Turin/Piedmont/Sicily/Naples/'east coast'/ Venice-area-into-the- Dolomites . . .

 

methinks the issue is a local pride issue - which is actually unrelated to "tastes good"

 

regardless..... wood auto-ignition temp is 451' Fahrenheit.  there's a book about that.....

the vastest majority of home ovens design for install around wood do not exceed 500'F - for safety reasons.....

our most recent replacement says it will go to 550'F - done that - display reads 550'F - does preheat a baking stone super well.

Edited January 17, 2021 by AlaMoi (log)