Home Made Ice Cream (2015– )

paulraphael · April 5, 2018

9 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Not to kick her while she's down but didn't Jeni's process already lead to all kinds of carnage?

Fortunately no one ever got sick, but they had what might be a couple of close calls. They found samples of lysteria in the kitchen during monthly inspections and as a precaution recalled a bunch of ice cream. This contributed to their decision to offload the raw milk operations (including mixing and pasteurizing the ice cream) to a dairy.

Edited April 5, 2018 by paulraphael (log)

ccp900 · April 6, 2018

this is what I mean by having a great community. lots of very smart and talented people sharing and providing helpful insights. thanks paul jo sweet and everyone else.

Paul, bit of a question. I think what jeni did in her book was to according to her work backwards. she had the texture and body in mind and working with just grocery level items and a lowly cuisinart (not even the compressor type) she went ahead and tried developing the same body and texture. hence why she uses cornstarch and light syrup versus what she said she uses in the factory which are tapioca syrup and tapioca starch. this also leads me to believe that she might actually not use cream cheese in her actual product but her process of reducing raw milk accomplishes the same thing.

here's another question. if jenis has grown to a level where she can now afford to use raw milk and use high end pasteurizers and homogenizers (I think now its outsourced due to the listeria scare they had a frw years ago which she now calls the fellowship model) she had to start small somewhere sometime. I wonder what her old old process was. being a small business she would not probably have had the scale required to outsource nor prepare in house her special milk blend.

I saw a YouTube video with a bag that said concentrated milk solids. I wonder who made that bag I can't find the video now. might be a better source of milk solids versus what we find in the grocery.

paulraphael · April 6, 2018

3 hours ago, ccp900 said:

this also leads me to believe that she might actually not use cream cheese in her actual product but her process of reducing raw milk accomplishes the same thing.

That's right. The cream cheese is a hack to simulate the emulsifying power she gets at the factory from milk proteins.

3 hours ago, ccp900 said:

I saw a YouTube video with a bag that said concentrated milk solids. I wonder who made that bag I can't find the video now. might be a better source of milk solids versus what we find in the grocery.

Maybe, but I'm really not sure what improvements you'd get over using high quality nonfat dried milk. If you can't find that at a local store, it's easy to get on Amazon.

Also keep in mind that Jeni's uses its protein denaturizing process purely to substitute for eggs. You should ask yourself how important this is to you. If you simply don't like the flavor of eggs in ice cream, or the flavor-masking of heavy custard, you can always just use fewer eggs. I use two yolks per liter (less than 4% by weight). This is more than enough emulsifier, and enough to influence the texture a bit. I don't notice any egg flavor or muting. You can use as little as 1/4 yolk, but will forsake any of the textural advantages yolks can offer.

Using cornstarch or tapioca starch as a stabilizer is an effort at label-friendliness. Those ingredients sound "natural" to customers, while the gums that work better sound scary. In real life, I don't understand the distinction between powder dried from a cassava root and powder dried from a locust bean seed. They're both polysaccharides. The one from the locust bean tree will work better, and at 1/10 the concentration.

ccp900 · April 6, 2018

6 hours ago, paulraphael said:

That's right. The cream cheese is a hack to simulate the emulsifying power she gets at the factory from milk proteins.

Maybe, but I'm really not sure what improvements you'd get over using high quality nonfat dried milk. If you can't find that at a local store, it's easy to get on Amazon.

Also keep in mind that Jeni's uses its protein denaturizing process purely to substitute for eggs. You should ask yourself how important this is to you. If you simply don't like the flavor of eggs in ice cream, or the flavor-masking of heavy custard, you can always just use fewer eggs. I use two yolks per liter (less than 4% by weight). This is more than enough emulsifier, and enough to influence the texture a bit. I don't notice any egg flavor or muting. You can use as little as 1/4 yolk, but will forsake any of the textural advantages yolks can offer.

Using cornstarch or tapioca starch as a stabilizer is an effort at label-friendliness. Those ingredients sound "natural" to customers, while the gums that work better sound scary. In real life, I don't understand the distinction between powder dried from a cassava root and powder dried from a locust bean seed. They're both polysaccharides. The one from the locust bean tree will work better, and at 1/10 the concentration.

thanks paul. i am also leaning into using 1 yolk for the emulsification properties - ill try that soon. I realized i like using a philly base for chocolate ice cream more than the custard base but like you said 1 yolk wont be much - 1 yolk is around 18-20g so roughly a 2% ratio in my usual batch size. also thinking about soy lecithin but i cant find them anywhere locally and no amazon where im from

also, i saw a video where they made a french custard ice cream base and then a meringue. they then mixed the custard base and meringue and then churned the whole thing. has anyone seen this technique before or experimented? i am guessing the meringue is to put in air even before churning but wouldnt the action of the dasher just deflate the meringue removing any of that "advantage" of having pre-mixed air?

another reason why Jeni probably uses cream cheese on the home version is that it actually has stabilizers in it. Her recipe for milky chocolate actually doesnt have cream cheese - she replaced it with a concentrated source of milk proteins - evaporated milk - which then leads me to another question - why cream cheese and not just get skim milk powder - thats cheaper and more concentrated - is there a reason/logic im not seeing?

paulraphael · April 7, 2018

For chocolate I get rid of the eggs entirely. I want to get rid of every unnecessary source of fat. I add a bit of lecithin, but don't know if this is necessary. My chocolate flavor's still in beta testing.

Why don't you write to Jenni about the cream cheese? I never asked her about it because it's not what I'm up to. Probably there's some kind of emulsification / stabilization power that it has, but she finds it inappropriate for some flavors. Skim milk powder won't substitute for egg yolk, but I gather the cream cheese does in her home recipes.

ccp900 · April 7, 2018

2 hours ago, paulraphael said:

For chocolate I get rid of the eggs entirely. I want to get rid of every unnecessary source of fat. I add a bit of lecithin, but don't know if this is necessary. My chocolate flavor's still in beta testing.

Why don't you write to Jenni about the cream cheese? I never asked her about it because it's not what I'm up to. Probably there's some kind of emulsification / stabilization power that it has, but she finds it inappropriate for some flavors. Skim milk powder won't substitute for egg yolk, but I gather the cream cheese does in her home recipes.

hahaha, i didnt think she would even read an email from a random person to tell you the truth hehehe. did you email the contact@jenis.com email address? i can definitely try asking her

let me clarify my other statement. I was asking if Jeni uses the cream cheese only for the additional proteins to develop the body (i say this because in her book she said that adding evaporated milk adds proteins to give it the body required and hence no cream cheese is required) then why just eliminate cream cheese entirely and just use milk powder.

she also says this about cream cheese - cream cheese is high in casein due to the acid being added to the milk and this helps bind the ingredients and gives the ice cream the requisite body

Edited April 7, 2018 by ccp900 (log)

ccp900 · April 9, 2018

does anyone have a homemade peanut butter cup recipe that wont freeze in the ice cream?? im thinking of melting the peanut butter and adding sugar and coconut oil. chocolate will also be melted and coconut oil added to stop them from being stones in the ice cream hehe. good plan?

ah or better yet - mix the peanut butter with glucose and salt to bring back the saltiness......you guys think this will work?

Edited April 9, 2018 by ccp900 (log)

JoNorvelleWalker · September 17, 2018

I have not been making ice cream in a while. Yesterday I tasted (well, somewhat more than tasted) a commercial ice cream that I would like to rip off and recreate at home. The brand is Kwality. Kwality claims to be "all natural", whatever that may mean. According to the NY Times the Kwality butterfat is 14 percent. The ice cream is only slightly sweet. Not cloying on the palate. One could eat a lot. My son asserted it did not contain eggs.

The texture was perfect. No iciness whatsoever and slow melting. If I made up a batch of low sugar, 14 percent butter fat ice cream, no eggs...I would have a hard, grainy, poorly melting mess.

Any thoughts on how they do it? My best efforts at high fat eggless ice cream have been OK, sort of reminiscent of whipped cream, but they melt fast and don't store well at all.

mgaretz · September 17, 2018

18 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

I have not been making ice cream in a while. Yesterday I tasted (well, somewhat more than tasted) a commercial ice cream that I would like to rip off and recreate at home. The brand is Kwality. Kwality claims to be "all natural", whatever that may mean. According to the NY Times the Kwality butterfat is 14 percent. The ice cream is only slightly sweet. Not cloying on the palate. One could eat a lot. My son asserted it did not contain eggs.

The texture was perfect. No iciness whatsoever and slow melting. If I made up a batch of low sugar, 14 percent butter fat ice cream, no eggs...I would have a hard, grainy, poorly melting mess.

Any thoughts on how they do it? My best efforts at high fat eggless ice cream have been OK, sort of reminiscent of whipped cream, but they melt fast and don't store well at all.

Here is a link to the ingredients for some of their flavors. Note they are using vegetable fat, not butterfat, and also a lot of emulsifiers.

http://www.kwality.ae/product/chocolate/

Kerry Beal · September 17, 2018

16 minutes ago, mgaretz said:

Here is a link to the ingredients for some of their flavors. Note they are using vegetable fat, not butterfat, and also a lot of emulsifiers.

http://www.kwality.ae/product/chocolate/

There is also another company called Kwality - here - his has 14% butterfat.

JoNorvelleWalker · September 17, 2018

17 minutes ago, mgaretz said:

Here is a link to the ingredients for some of their flavors. Note they are using vegetable fat, not butterfat, and also a lot of emulsifiers.

http://www.kwality.ae/product/chocolate/

Different brand. Here's what I am speaking of:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/dining/kwality-ice-cream-india.html

Kerry Beal · September 17, 2018

Just now, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Different brand. Here's what I am speaking of:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/dining/kwality-ice-cream-india.html

Jo - does he sell packaged ice cream with an ingredient list?

JoNorvelleWalker · September 17, 2018

1 minute ago, Kerry Beal said:

Jo - does he sell packaged ice cream with an ingredient list?

No packaged ice cream that I could find. The ice cream cakes have a sign that says egg free. I looked around the store and the website but could find no information about ingredients further than "all natural".

Okanagancook · September 17, 2018

In terms of getting a softer ice cream, Alton Brown instructs to use Vodka...around 2 T per batch to help make ice cream soft. I tried it and it doesn't help. Can't comment on the rest as I am relatively new to ice cream making. I did find this website very helpful and I think the fellow has posted on this thread.

http://icecreamscience.com/science/

JoNorvelleWalker · September 17, 2018

43 minutes ago, Okanagancook said:

In terms of getting a softer ice cream, Alton Brown instructs to use Vodka...around 2 T per batch to help make ice cream soft. I tried it and it doesn't help. Can't comment on the rest as I am relatively new to ice cream making. I did find this website very helpful and I think the fellow has posted on this thread.

http://icecreamscience.com/science/

Years ago (well, 2012) I tried adding ethanol of one persuasion or another, as recommended by Rose Levy Beranbaum in The Cake Bible. For me I found alcohol really did improve the texture:

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/144208-home-made-ice-cream-2013–/

(First post of this topic.)

A member replied suggesting icecreamscience.com (second post of this topic). Funny how things come round! I've been following Ruben's methods ever since. Though not necessarily Ruben's recipes. I like higher fat. Ruben has posted here from time to time and I have been grateful for his insight.

mgaretz · September 18, 2018

3 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Different brand. Here's what I am speaking of:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/dining/kwality-ice-cream-india.html

I stand corrected. But I'd go into one of the parlors and ask to see the ingredient list. If they ask why, tell them food allergies.

JoNorvelleWalker · September 18, 2018

1 minute ago, mgaretz said:

I stand corrected. But I'd go into one of the parlors and ask to see the ingredient list. If they ask why, tell them food allergies.

Must they share that information? I would have asked but I thought the question might be rather rude. Granted imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Not to mention the dipper was answering most questions in Hindi.

Now that you mention it, there was a sign up that informed the ice cream is produced in a facility that processes nuts. (Pistachio saffron is a flavor to remember.)

paulraphael · September 18, 2018

20 hours ago, Okanagancook said:

In terms of getting a softer ice cream, Alton Brown instructs to use Vodka...around 2 T per batch to help make ice cream soft. I tried it and it doesn't help. Can't comment on the rest as I am relatively new to ice cream making. I did find this website very helpful and I think the fellow has posted on this thread.

http://icecreamscience.com/science/

Vodka will definitely soften the ice cream ... ethanol has enormous powers of freezing point depression. But I don't think adding alcohol is the best solution, because you'll trade hardness for iciness. Alcohol will increase the amount of unfrozen water in the final product, without doing anything to control that water.

The most elegant way I know to control hardness is with sugars. Adding dextrose to the mix allows you to control hardness and sweetness independently. Fructose or invert syrup will offer even more control. I've written about this here.

paulraphael · September 18, 2018

23 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Any thoughts on how they do it? My best efforts at high fat eggless ice cream have been OK, sort of reminiscent of whipped cream, but they melt fast and don't store well at all.

I'd start with an added emulsifier, like lecithin (find a brand that doesn't have a strong taste. Like WillPowder). Then a bit of stabilizer. I like to mix my own. For eggless ice creams, sometimes a little extra lambda carrageenan will give the same custardy mouthfeel as egg yolk.

JoNorvelleWalker · September 19, 2018

There's a little more ingredient information for some of the flavors. The pistachio saffron that I loved is made with Spanish saffron.

JoNorvelleWalker · September 19, 2018

8 hours ago, paulraphael said:

I'd start with an added emulsifier, like lecithin (find a brand that doesn't have a strong taste. Like WillPowder). Then a bit of stabilizer. I like to mix my own. For eggless ice creams, sometimes a little extra lambda carrageenan will give the same custardy mouthfeel as egg yolk.

I never said the Kwality flavors contain no eggs. My son said the ice cream didn't contain eggs. And the sign said the cakes did not contain eggs. If you told me what I ate was rich with golden yolks I'd just as soon believe you.

Probably @mgaretz is right. If I ever visit Kwality again I should politely ask. Worst they could do is throw me out and tell me never to come back.

BeeZee · September 19, 2018

Probably does not contain eggs, as certain Indian (East Asian) sects do not eat eggs.

paulraphael · September 21, 2018

On 9/18/2018 at 11:39 PM, JoNorvelleWalker said:

I never said the Kwality flavors contain no eggs. My son said the ice cream didn't contain eggs. And the sign said the cakes did not contain eggs. If you told me what I ate was rich with golden yolks I'd just as soon believe you.

Probably @mgaretz is right. If I ever visit Kwality again I should politely ask. Worst they could do is throw me out and tell me never to come back.

Here's the Indian version:

milk solids, sugar, vegetable fat, glucose, emulsifier E471. Stabilizers: E407, E412, E466, water and artificial vanilla flavour

http://www.kwality.ae/product/vanilla/

Dr. Parekh is probably making something a little closer to his roots. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's eggless. He's a food scientist, so he should know how to get any texture he wants without eggs.

The Times article shows that he gets the importance or lower sweetness ... that's encouraging.

paulraphael · September 25, 2018

I just finished a post on chocolate ice cream.

This was a long time in the making! 15 prototypes.

There are two recipes; one that uses both couverture and cocoa powder, which I think represents the best compromise for right now.

An one that's 100% cocoa, for when we can get our hands on really good single-origin cocoa powders.

I think that day is coming. Some of the big manufacturers are advertising them (but I don't know where to find them), and many small makers are selling them now (but they don't seem able to mill the powder fine enough yet). But I'm hopeful.

I may slightly update these recipes with some tweaks to the stabilizer blend, but I think they're very close.

JoNorvelleWalker · September 26, 2018

I wish I liked chocolate ice cream.

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