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Darienne

Home Made Ice Cream (2015– )

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1 hour ago, mgaretz said:

I have used peanut butter powder with great success. 

I thought of that (especially every time I go to Costco and see the giant tub they sell ;) ) but I’ve never used PB powder and I had no idea how much to start with of if there are different kinds that would behave differently. I’d love to hear more details if you are willing to share :)  

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13 minutes ago, kayb said:

I was going to suggest either that (I keep some on hand to use in Asian sauces, baking, etc.) or going that way your own; dry-roast some peanuts, grind them, and add them.

Grind them like a powder or like a homemade PB? Thanks! I appreciate all the suggestions!

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16 minutes ago, Pastrypastmidnight said:

Grind them like a powder or like a homemade PB? Thanks! I appreciate all the suggestions!

 

Like a powder. I haven't tried this, but seems like it'd make sense.

 

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9 hours ago, Pastrypastmidnight said:

I thought of that (especially every time I go to Costco and see the giant tub they sell ;) ) but I’ve never used PB powder and I had no idea how much to start with of if there are different kinds that would behave differently. I’d love to hear more details if you are willing to share :)  

 

For 16 ozs of liquid, I use 1/4 cup of peanut butter powder. 

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On 3/4/2018 at 6:04 PM, JoNorvelleWalker said:

"...I dusted off the KitchenAid PHMB and made up a batch of mix.  Sitting in the ice bath at the moment..."

 

Never tried that.... seems pretty hard-core and uncomfortable.  I usually just go sit on the couch instead. ;)

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11 hours ago, sweettreateater said:

 

Never tried that.... seems pretty hard-core and uncomfortable.  I usually just go sit on the couch instead. ;)

 

Helps with the arthritis.

 

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My friend who went to Japan recently wanted to make black sesame ice cream in my machine.  It was quite the experience.  Made from the Serious Eats website.  One has to make the sesame paste from scratch.

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Hi everyone can i ask the experts a couple of questions please

 

In Jeni's book, she asks the reader to boil the mixture for 4 minutes and says it is critical to do so.  Although i understand that it was written so that the average home cook can follow it without the necessary details, it would have been nice if they included some sort of quantifiable measure apart from the 4 minutes akin to Ruben's method.  So, my question is has anyone been able to "decipher" that 4 minute instruction to something a little more scientific??

 

An offshoot question is - is there some sort of table that tells us the temperature and time relationship that we require in ice cream making to denature the proteins and get the lovely creamy texture and body? 

 

In Ruben's method i distinctly remember reading a comment from him (not sure where though) that the important piece is really the time of the cook and not the overall reduction.  If the person cooking finds that he has already hit the 15% reduction but still hasnt completed the 25 minute requirement then he should go ahead and continue cooking until 25 minutes completed (please correct me if i am wrong though)

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10 hours ago, ccp900 said:

Hi everyone can i ask the experts a couple of questions please

 

In Jeni's book, she asks the reader to boil the mixture for 4 minutes and says it is critical to do so.  Although i understand that it was written so that the average home cook can follow it without the necessary details, it would have been nice if they included some sort of quantifiable measure apart from the 4 minutes akin to Ruben's method.  So, my question is has anyone been able to "decipher" that 4 minute instruction to something a little more scientific??

 

An offshoot question is - is there some sort of table that tells us the temperature and time relationship that we require in ice cream making to denature the proteins and get the lovely creamy texture and body? 

 

In Ruben's method i distinctly remember reading a comment from him (not sure where though) that the important piece is really the time of the cook and not the overall reduction.  If the person cooking finds that he has already hit the 15% reduction but still hasnt completed the 25 minute requirement then he should go ahead and continue cooking until 25 minutes completed (please correct me if i am wrong though)

 

I believe in Jeni's commercial ice cream she uses osmotically concentrated milk.  For home production there are at least three considerations of heating the mix:  removing water, conditioning proteins, and achieving pasteurization.

 

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7 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I believe in Jeni's commercial ice cream she uses osmotically concentrated milk.  For home production there are at least three considerations of heating the mix:  removing water, conditioning proteins, and achieving pasteurization.

 

Thanks Jo for chiming in and totally understand that but have we ever de-mystified this magic 4 minute number for us who are more inclined to temperature and actual time?  I can do the crude way of putting a thermometer in the pan and reading the temperature after 4 minutes but of course that is going to be very dependent on a ton of factors like pan size, intensity of heat being applied etc

 

 

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1 hour ago, ccp900 said:

Thanks Jo for chiming in and totally understand that but have we ever de-mystified this magic 4 minute number for us who are more inclined to temperature and actual time?  I can do the crude way of putting a thermometer in the pan and reading the temperature after 4 minutes but of course that is going to be very dependent on a ton of factors like pan size, intensity of heat being applied etc

 

 

 

I don't understand the question.

 

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I have a feeling that the 4 minute instruction is a way to achieve some of the benefits of Ruben's method, while keeping things ultra simple. Not sure why it's 4 minutes vs 5, though... that might be the amount of time she found achieves the texture she likes.

 

I definitely think that Ruben's method results in a super creamy ice cream. However, I have not found a way to separate the effect of evaporation from the effects of the protein denaturing. 

For instance, what percentage of the improvement is due to evaporation and how much due to denaturing? Is it 50/50, 70/30, or something else? 

 

Or do they work at different rates throughout the 25 minute period? For instance, does denaturing play a bigger part at first and then evaporation takes over towards the end? Or is it equal throughout?

 

It could matter because if, for example, denaturing is the bigger player and it happens mostly at the beginning, the heating time could be reduced a lot, and still achieve most of the benefits.

 

One equation and two variables... 

 

It's all also a bit subjective because some people (ie, my girlfriend) does not like how "chewy" it comes out, whereas that's exactly what I like about it. So I could heat it less and achieve less "chewiness" which would result in her being happy but me getting less ice cream.

 

Funny how Ruben seems to now have a method named after him... ;) He does sometimes post here so hopefully he will chime in. He's the expert on this!

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2 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I don't understand the question.

 

sorry about that - i was rambling.

 

i wanted to know a more exact number that translates Jeni's "keep boiling for 4 mins - this is critical" step to something more scientific - for example heat the mixture until 175 degrees which should take 4 mins on a medium-high heat

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, sweettreateater said:

I have a feeling that the 4 minute instruction is a way to achieve some of the benefits of Ruben's method, while keeping things ultra simple. Not sure why it's 4 minutes vs 5, though... that might be the amount of time she found achieves the texture she likes.

 

I definitely think that Ruben's method results in a super creamy ice cream. However, I have not found a way to separate the effect of evaporation from the effects of the protein denaturing. 

For instance, what percentage of the improvement is due to evaporation and how much due to denaturing? Is it 50/50, 70/30, or something else? 

 

Or do they work at different rates throughout the 25 minute period? For instance, does denaturing play a bigger part at first and then evaporation takes over towards the end? Or is it equal throughout?

 

It could matter because if, for example, denaturing is the bigger player and it happens mostly at the beginning, the heating time could be reduced a lot, and still achieve most of the benefits.

 

One equation and two variables... 

 

It's all also a bit subjective because some people (ie, my girlfriend) does not like how "chewy" it comes out, whereas that's exactly what I like about it. So I could heat it less and achieve less "chewiness" which would result in her being happy but me getting less ice cream.

 

Funny how Ruben seems to now have a method named after him... ;) He does sometimes post here so hopefully he will chime in. He's the expert on this!

 

thanks sweettreateater! - I think Ruben also posted somewhere in here that if you do decide to not evaporate the mix then you can already up the total solids to mimic the evaporation (i think it was around the possible use of a sous vide machine which has the mixture in a closed bag which will stop evaporation).

 

another tack on question to yours above is how long is the time to just denature the proteins? is that the reason why 25 mins seems to be the magic number at 72 degrees


Edited by ccp900 (log)

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3 minutes ago, sweettreateater said:

 

 

JoNorvelleWalker is a close second...

agreed - lots of people and a great helpful community

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2 hours ago, sweettreateater said:

While we're at it, this is an awesome ice cream blog:

 

https://underbelly-nyc.blogspot.com

 

Amazing info there, along with some pretty witty writing. He also posts here with very insightful suggestions.

i got that bookmarked hehehe

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Posted (edited)
On 4/3/2018 at 4:10 PM, ccp900 said:

Hi everyone can i ask the experts a couple of questions please

 

In Jeni's book, she asks the reader to boil the mixture for 4 minutes and says it is critical to do so.  Although i understand that it was written so that the average home cook can follow it without the necessary details, it would have been nice if they included some sort of quantifiable measure apart from the 4 minutes akin to Ruben's method.  So, my question is has anyone been able to "decipher" that 4 minute instruction to something a little more scientific??

 

An offshoot question is - is there some sort of table that tells us the temperature and time relationship that we require in ice cream making to denature the proteins and get the lovely creamy texture and body? 

 

In Ruben's method i distinctly remember reading a comment from him (not sure where though) that the important piece is really the time of the cook and not the overall reduction.  If the person cooking finds that he has already hit the 15% reduction but still hasnt completed the 25 minute requirement then he should go ahead and continue cooking until 25 minutes completed (please correct me if i am wrong though)

 

I'd recommend against this method entirely. It overcooks the milk proteins, it's terribly imprecise (as you've noticed) and it's a pain. Just figure out what nonfat milk solids level you're going for, and get there by adding nonfat dry milk. The key is to use good quality dry milk that's 100% skim milk, that's very fresh (no off-odors when dry or mixed), and ideally, that's been spray-dried at low temperature. I use Now Organic brand. There are some other good ones. I keep mine double-bagged in the freezer.

 

Jeni knows what she's talking about, but I think the method she's recommending is a misplaced attempt to mimic her industrial process. She'd get raw milk from the farm, centrifuge it into cream and skim milk, and then concentrate the milk by reverse osmosis. This is great if you have industrial dairy equipment. At least in theory. It turned out to be too problematic even for her; now she has all this stuff done off-site at the dairy. 


Edited by paulraphael (log)

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8 hours ago, sweettreateater said:

While we're at it, this is an awesome ice cream blog:

 

https://underbelly-nyc.blogspot.com

 

Amazing info there, along with some pretty witty writing. He also posts here with very insightful suggestions.

 

Thanks!

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, paulraphael said:

 

Just figure out what nonfat milk solids level you're going for, and get there by adding nonfat dry milk. 

 

 

I agree completely with that. For me, adding nonfat dry milk seems like the single biggest thing which improves my ice creams, even more than the heating... 

 

Also, very interesting what you said, paulraphael, about Jenni's commercial production solution...

 

I was going to try what she does but my reverse osmosis machine is in the shop. ;)

 


Edited by sweettreateater (log)
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51 minutes ago, sweettreateater said:

 

I agree completely with that. For me, adding nonfat dry milk seems like the single biggest thing which improves my ice creams, even more than the heating... 

 

Also, very interesting what you said, paulraphael, about Jenni's commercial production solution...

 

I was going to try what she does but my reverse osmosis machine is in the shop. ;)

 

 

 

Until you get your equipment fixed, one may purchase osmotically concentrated milk at my local supermarket:  Fairlife.  I experimented with Fairlife for ice cream as reported earlier in this thread.  Not as good in my hands as Ruben's method.  However, as far as convenience is concerned there may yet be promise here.

 

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11 hours ago, sweettreateater said:

I definitely think that Ruben's method results in a super creamy ice cream. However, I have not found a way to separate the effect of evaporation from the effects of the protein denaturing. 

For instance, what percentage of the improvement is due to evaporation and how much due to denaturing? Is it 50/50, 70/30, or something else? 

 

 

That's the real question. Without having done the necessary experiment, I'll bet that protein denaturing has very, very little to do it. There are two significant things that distinguish his recipes: extremely high total solids, and gobsmackingly high milk fat. He's also got a lot of yolks in there. Duplicate these solids and fat and egg levels by any other method, you'll get basically the same result.

 

Personally I don't like ice cream that's so high in fat. I find the mouthfeel (and stomach-feel) off-putting, and I don't like the way it mutes flavors. You may disagree. If so, be confident that you can a similar texture by just about any method that gives you those proportions. When the solids and fat and custard levels are so high, the texture is going to be very robust. It won't be messed with easily by small changes in process. 

 

Manipulating proteins through cooking is an interesting topic. I've built my own process around taking advantage of the possible benefits. I believe these benefits are relatively subtle, though ... not enough to take the place of conventional thickening and emulsifying ingredients unless you're running a very sophisticated process. In my conversations with Jeni of Jeni's homemade, she said she was able to get enough emulsification to go egg-free because she used raw milk. Then she regretted telling me this, because she was afraid I'd encourage people to try this at home, leading to all kinds of carnage. 

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2 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

 

That's the real question. Without having done the necessary experiment, I'll bet that protein denaturing has very, very little to do it. There are two significant things that distinguish his recipes: extremely high total solids, and gobsmackingly high milk fat. He's also got a lot of yolks in there. Duplicate these solids and fat and egg levels by any other method, you'll get basically the same result.

 

Personally I don't like ice cream that's so high in fat. I find the mouthfeel (and stomach-feel) off-putting, and I don't like the way it mutes flavors. You may disagree. If so, be confident that you can a similar texture by just about any method that gives you those proportions. When the solids and fat and custard levels are so high, the texture is going to be very robust. It won't be messed with easily by small changes in process. 

 

Manipulating proteins through cooking is an interesting topic. I've built my own process around taking advantage of the possible benefits. I believe these benefits are relatively subtle, though ... not enough to take the place of conventional thickening and emulsifying ingredients unless you're running a very sophisticated process. In my conversations with Jeni of Jeni's homemade, she said she was able to get enough emulsification to go egg-free because she used raw milk. Then she regretted telling me this, because she was afraid I'd encourage people to try this at home, leading to all kinds of carnage. 

 

And here I thought Ruben's problem was that his recipes were too high in sugar!  My ice cream is much higher in butterfat.

 

Not to kick her while she's down but didn't Jeni's process already lead to all kinds of carnage?

 

 

P.S.  If you boil your milk you are going to get a boiled milk taste.

 

 

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