Beef Short Ribs: The Topic

[FeChef]

15 hours ago, Paul Bacino said:

these were pretty spicy and a good balance of flavor

 

 

 

 

I have the recipe written down somewhere and now that you mention it, i believe i reduced the amount of cayenne drastically in that recipe and a few times i removed it completely and also came up with a sweet marsala sauce using 1/2 cup of cola, 1/2 cup Marsala, 1 cup of beef stock and using just onion, garlic and soy sauce.

Sorry i forgot to mention the original recipe was on the spicy side.

[Paul Bacino]

2 hours ago, FeChef said:

I have the recipe written down somewhere and now that you mention it, i believe i reduced the amount of cayenne drastically in that recipe and a few times i removed it completely and also came up with a sweet marsala sauce using 1/2 cup of cola, 1/2 cup Marsala, 1 cup of beef stock and using just onion, garlic and soy sauce.

Sorry i forgot to mention the original recipe was on the spicy side.

 

Sorry i forgot to mention the original recipe was on the spicy side.

 

I didn't mind it!!  But for others  Thanks

[Wolf]

Today I swung by 'my butcher' to pick up an order (two pork jowls for guanciale and 2 lb. beef tendons) and he didn't have it but had great bargain on old beef short ribs, English cut, so I picked up 5 lb for 9$. 

 

I usually do peposo d'Imprunetta with short ribs (a recipe from Chef John), but I didn't feel like making it today so I fiddled with his recipe for short ribs and porcini braised in tomato sauce (I was a bit underwhelmed how the sauce turned out first time I tried it). In case anyone's interested, here's how I'm doing it (I'd welcome any comments or critique)...

 

First I browned the beef (seasoned with some coarse sea salt and black pepper) on a tbsp or two of vegetable oil in 5qt Dutch oven, then removed the meat and sauteed 4 finely diced largeish onions on remaining fat. I waited until they were 'reduced' to about the quarter of initial volume (15-ish minutes on relatively high heat), then added thawed porcini (about 3/4 of a cup), sauteeed until onion got down to 1/5th of initial volume, added 2-3 tbsp tomato puree and 'roasted' it for few minutes before adding smoked paprika and cayenne and 'roasting' them some more. Added 2 tbsp flour and kept on same heat for few minutes before adding quality passata (I'd say a cup) and half a bottle of chianti and a cup, cup and a half of beef stock to deglaze, plus 2 bay leaves, a pinch of rosemary and one finely diced salted anchovy fillet. Once it reduced a bit, returned the ribs to the pot and am keeping it on the stove top under laziest of simmmers. So far, it's been abut two hours braising- I seasoned it a bit with ground pepper and stirred in a tsp of mustard. I've started the braising with meat 'bone side down', and haven't turned it over yet- I'm trying to get the bones to yield most of their succulence to the sauce before turning the meat...  So far, the sauce is spot on (might adjust the salt, or add a bit of mustard later on), and am, judging by expirience with this older beef, looking at leat at another 2-2 and a half hours braising.  I don't think I'll need to reduce the sauce, it's already got a consistency I'm looking for (and it doesn't seem to change too much as braising progresses).

[heidih]

@Wolf  I can only add that I started my braising via Julia Child & Mastering the Art of French Cooking. Over time I let the browning go and seemed to get a more gelatinous yield,. My lamb shanks and veal shanks are no longer subjected to the hot pan. Just my 2 cents. On occasion simpler can be better,. I still "brown" the onions and tomato paste and aromatics almost as one would a tadka. Your sauce sounds like ready for good pasta or polenta. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by heidih (log)

[Duvel]

10 hours ago, heidih said:

@Wolf  I can only add that I started my braising via Julia Child & Mastering the Art of French Cooking. Over time I let the browning go and seemed to get a more gelatinous yield,. My lamb shanks and veal shanks are no longer subjected to the hot pan. Just my 2 cents. On occasion simpler can be better,. I still "brown" the onions and tomato paste and aromatics almost as one would a tadka. Your sauce sounds like ready for good pasta or polenta. 

 

More gelatinous in terms of the meat ? This is very interesting ... Would your assessment then be that the browning “facilitates” the leakage of gelatine into the sauce ? 

[heidih]

1 hour ago, Duvel said:

More gelatinous in terms of the meat ? This is very interesting ... Would your assessment then be that the browning “facilitates” the leakage of gelatine into the sauce ? 

 

No what I was trying to convey is that the browning might "seal" the meat and even inhibit. However I am not a science nerd so this is all anecdotal. Browning gives us some "maillard" but I have seen in other cuisines that just "tossing the meat in" may not be a bad thing.  I used to brown the lamb shanks but last 2 times just tucked them in the slow cooker. Loved them as much as ever. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by heidih (log)

[Wolf]

Thanks for the tip, Heidi.  I usually stew for shorter periods (goulash and similar) and never brown the meat- I think the conventional wisdom for goulash and stuff is not browning the meat (the sauce would not infuse meat as much, and in turn meat is supposed to flavour the sauce less when browned).

 

Later, I found out about jus au pan, which benefits from caramelized bits of meat, and when I started long braised dishes I continued to brown (because everyone else seemed to do it)- but in lieu of Your post, I'll seriously reconsider it. Your way also seems to make sense, so I'm willing to try it out. 👍

 

BTW, the dish turned out great, except for small niggling detail- it didn't reheat as well as I expected. Despite the sauce getting more savoury each time it reheated, it also lost most of its aroma and spiciness (most notably, rosemary and smoked paprika were 'gone' on first reheat- both beef and wine seemed to taste more pronounced on each reheat)...  Oh, and it was really an old cow- it tok me around 6 hours braising to get it tender(ish)... 

[torolover]

I know some recipes braise short ribs in a 350F oven, and some recipes braise in a 275F oven.

 

I understand that some recipes recommend 275F so the liquid and meat will cook at a lower temp.  This way the meat will stay juicier, although it will take longer to braise.

 

I tried braising the short ribs with veggies and water at 275F.  I checked the temp of the liquid after 1 hour, and I noticed it was about 210F!  This is almost boiling.

 

Is this normal?

 

I thought the point of cooking at 275F instead of 350F is to keep the liquid at a lower temperature than boiling.  Does 210F seems too hot?

 

Also some recipes ask to cover the pot with lid, some with no lid, and some with parchment paper with a hole in the middle.

 

I know the reason for adding the lid is to prevent the water from evaporating too much, but doesn't the lid also make the water too hot?

Edited August 1, 2021 by torolover (log)

[gfweb]

Great questions.

Water can't get hotter than 212f so a lid wont raise the temp. It will keep water from evaporating though .

 

A basic  method is to put a layer of carrots and onions on the bottom of the pot along with a couple cloves of smashed garlic.  Put in red wine to cover halfway up the meat and whisk in 2 tbsp of tomato paste. Salt and pepper.

 

I might add a little bit of cinnamon or 5-spice

 

Cover it and put in a 300F oven and ignore it for 2 hours. Then  turn the meat over and give it another hour or so. Remove t he meat and take the liquid and remove the fat...perhaps then thicken with starch and serve with the braised veg.

[torolover]

16 hours ago, gfweb said:

Great questions.

Water can't get hotter than 212f so a lid wont raise the temp. It will keep water from evaporating though .

 

A basic  method is to put a layer of carrots and onions on the bottom of the pot along with a couple cloves of smashed garlic.  Put in red wine to cover halfway up the meat and whisk in 2 tbsp of tomato paste. Salt and pepper.

 

I might add a little bit of cinnamon or 5-spice

 

Cover it and put in a 300F oven and ignore it for 2 hours. Then  turn the meat over and give it another hour or so. Remove t he meat and take the liquid and remove the fat...perhaps then thicken with starch and serve with the braised veg.

Thanks for the tips gfweb!

 

I'm still confused why some recipes ask for 275F or some ask for 350F.

 

Let's assume the recipes ask for the meat to be completely covered with liquid/stock.  Get the pot to reach a boil on the stove, and then put into the oven.

 

If I use a 275F oven the liquid reaches 210F or closet to boiling point.

If I use a 350F oven, the liquid will also reach 210F or close to boiling point.

 

In both cases the meat should cook about the same time, since the meat is being cooked at the same 210F liquid.

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rotuts]

@torolover 

 

'''   Am I missing something?  '''

 

probably not.  more Rx's 

 

are ' traditional'  ie tis been done that way

 

before , so its done that way now

 

very few are ' scientifically ' studied

 

the results of the two methods are

 

probably very similar , and rarely

 

if ever , tasted side by side.

[gfweb]

33 minutes ago, torolover said:

Thanks for the tips gfweb!

 

I'm still confused why some recipes ask for 275F or some ask for 350F.

 

Let's assume the recipes ask for the meat to be completely covered with liquid/stock.  Get the pot to reach a boil on the stove, and then put into the oven.

 

If I use a 275F oven the liquid reaches 210F or closet to boiling point.

If I use a 350F oven, the liquid will also reach 210F or close to boiling point.

 

In both cases the meat should cook about the same time, since the meat is being cooked at the same 210F liquid.

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope.  As @rotuts says, there's a lot of tradition in recipes.

 

If you do as I do and just put room temp ingredients in the oven I suppose the the longer time to reach boiling in the 275 F oven might be a gentler cook than 350.  That could mean either better done or tougher meat.

 

But if you boil it first and then into the oven.  No difference.

[cdh]

Would 275 vs 350 have more of an effect on the sauce than on the meat?  As noted above, water doesn't go above 212... so how the meat cooks is limited by that...   how much of the water boils off might be affected by the rate of energy flowing into the water...  which should be higher in an environment 75 degrees hotter... unless there is some rule of thermodynamics I'm forgetting that makes that intuition bad.  Maybe hotter over means thicker sauce? 

Edited August 1, 2021 by cdh (log)

[Okanagancook]

Modernist Cuisine might enlighten us.  I am moving and have packed mine🤪or All About Braising by Molly somebody or other.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Okanagancook (log)

[rotuts]

@Okanagancook 

 

I was waiting for someone to make that move.

 

I know it wasn't going to be me.

 

and I can see the books , 

 

about 3 ft. away.

 

if you post page numbers

 

I might get enthused.

[gfweb]

30 minutes ago, cdh said:

Would 275 vs 350 have more of an effect on the sauce than on the meat?  As noted above, water doesn't go above 212... so how the meat cooks is limited by that...   how much of the water boils off might be affected by the rate of energy flowing into the water...  which should be higher in an environment 75 degrees hotter... unless there is some rule of thermodynamics I'm forgetting that makes that intuition bad.  Maybe hotter over means thicker sauce? 

Good thoughts.  I guess  the seal on the pot would be a big factor in letting water escape.

 

I usually concentrate the juices a little after the braise.

[rotuts]

in FancyPants French cooking :

 

they sometimes cut out a pice of parchment paper

 

that fits the surface of the braise.  then add the top.

 

im not sure what this really does .

 

but it adds ' FancyPants-ness '

 

it might keep more liquid in the pot

 

but that would depend on the tightness of the top.

 

sometimes parchment paper is placed over the top

 

so the lid might have a tighter fit.

[Anna N]

I am not sure that 212°F is a particularly good temperature for braising. It’s great for boiling. 
 

“For best results, do not allow the braising liquid to boil; adjust your burner to the lowest setting (the liquid should be at a bare simmer), or braise in a slow oven set between 275°F (135°C) and 300°F (150°C). Some chefs swear by an even lower oven temperature of 200°F (95°C).”

 

Here.

[rotuts]

interesting article

 

browning the meat adds immense flavor 

 

however , if the meat is only 1/2 submerged 

 

it browns as it bakes in a covered pot

 

you just flip the meat over 1/2 way through

 

if a solid pice , or stir from time to time

 

making sure the meat is only 1/2 covered/

 

easier to do , and just as tasty.

[gfweb]

3 hours ago, rotuts said:

interesting article

 

browning the meat adds immense flavor 

 

however , if the meat is only 1/2 submerged 

 

it browns as it bakes in a covered pot

 

you just flip the meat over 1/2 way through

 

if a solid pice , or stir from time to time

 

making sure the meat is only 1/2 covered/

 

easier to do , and just as tasty.

I always marvel at how well exposed meat browns during a braise. I've stopped prebrowning the beef..as is called for by many recipes...because I think it might overcook the surface. 

 

As an aside I've found that a few slices of carrot in the braised veg will really improve the flavor of the liquid/sauce

Edited August 1, 2021 by gfweb (log)

[Bernie]

Lets back up a bit. Once you mix water with something else (that is dissolve something in it) it is no longer water.

It will boil at some other temperature.

It may be HIGHER or LOWER.

For example if you mix water with glycol (you get anti freeze) but it also increases the boiling point as well.

You add sugar to water and heat it and it will form a toffee which will certainly reach much higher than the boiling point of water (and I have had the burns to prove it, so there...)

 

A sauce containing water can certainly get above the boiling point of water but any water NOT Dissolved completely will tend to boil off (that's whats happening in a reduction).

 

In any mixture there will almost never be complete mixing there may still be some undissolved water which will boil at 210F.

 

In physics theory the temperature of the water is the average of all the energy levels of every molecule in the water. In theory there is a possibility that a layer of ice could form on a pot of boiling water if all the low energy molecules were to clump together on the top. The probability is extremely low though.😁

 

As far as the oven temperature that is more about heat transfer. It will take longer to get the liquid to its boiling point if you set the oven lower. Depending on the oven setting at one particular temperature usually means the oven heats till that temperature, stops heating until the temperature drops (5~20 degrees?) then starts the cycle again. Most thermostats and heaters are pretty crude in a technical sense but they do not really have to be.

 

Personally when doing a long braise I will have the lid on in the oven and initially set to 180C but lower it to 140C after it reaches temperature and remove the lid if I need to reduce the liquid.

 

[Bernie]

19 hours ago, rotuts said:

in FancyPants French cooking :

 

they sometimes cut out a pice of parchment paper

 

that fits the surface of the braise.  then add the top.

 

im not sure what this really does .

 

but it adds ' FancyPants-ness '

 

it might keep more liquid in the pot

 

but that would depend on the tightness of the top.

 

sometimes parchment paper is placed over the top

 

so the lid might have a tighter fit.

Doesn't the parchment stop the top of the contents being exposed to the hot air of the oven without a lid or the bit of hot air at the top of the pot if it has a lid on it?

That way you don't get any drying of the top layer from exposure to the hotter air rather than the actual cooler cooking liquid.

I could be wrong though. ( which is not an unusual occurrence )

 

[gfweb]

1 hour ago, Bernie said:

Lets back up a bit. Once you mix water with something else (that is dissolve something in it) it is no longer water.

It will boil at some other temperature.

It may be HIGHER or LOWER.

For example if you mix water with glycol (you get anti freeze) but it also increases the boiling point as well.

You add sugar to water and heat it and it will form a toffee which will certainly reach much higher than the boiling point of water (and I have had the burns to prove it, so there...)

 

A sauce containing water can certainly get above the boiling point of water but any water NOT Dissolved completely will tend to boil off (that's whats happening in a reduction).

 

In any mixture there will almost never be complete mixing there may still be some undissolved water which will boil at 210F.

 

In physics theory the temperature of the water is the average of all the energy levels of every molecule in the water. In theory there is a possibility that a layer of ice could form on a pot of boiling water if all the low energy molecules were to clump together on the top. The probability is extremely low though.😁

 

As far as the oven temperature that is more about heat transfer. It will take longer to get the liquid to its boiling point if you set the oven lower. Depending on the oven setting at one particular temperature usually means the oven heats till that temperature, stops heating until the temperature drops (5~20 degrees?) then starts the cycle again. Most thermostats and heaters are pretty crude in a technical sense but they do not really have to be.

 

Personally when doing a long braise I will have the lid on in the oven and initially set to 180C but lower it to 140C after it reaches temperature and remove the lid if I need to reduce the liquid.

 

 

 

You've made some statements that are true but the application to braising isn't obvious.

 

Dissolved stuff won't change the boiling point by more than a degree or 2.  Oven cycles happen, but the temp in the braise is buffered by the liquid which will even out  the variations.

[catdaddy]

3 hours ago, Bernie said:

Doesn't the parchment stop the top of the contents being exposed to the hot air of the oven without a lid or the bit of hot air at the top of the pot if it has a lid on it?

That way you don't get any drying of the top layer from exposure to the hotter air rather than the actual cooler cooking liquid.

I could be wrong though. ( which is not an unusual occurrence )

 

I think you're on to something here....  Although the liquid in a braise never gets over 212 degrees the air directly above the liquid certainly does so if you are actually braising (as opposed to poaching) whatever portion of the short rib is above the water is cooking at a higher temp than the submerged part. I was always told to submerge short ribs when cooking them so they don't dry out. Never really considered why just another thing on the list.

[Bernie]

cartouche  (usually parchment cartouche).

Don't you hate it when you know you know what the name is but you can't remember it at the time and then a couple of days later for no apparent reason it suddenly pops in the brain when you are doing nothing related!😕