Cooking with Myhrvold and Migoya's Modernist Pizza

[rotuts]

@Robenco15  

 

odd that  maker of a ' quality 'pan would give

 

such odd seasoning directions .

[chromedome]

1 hour ago, rotuts said:

@Robenco15  

 

odd that  maker of a ' quality 'pan would give

 

such odd seasoning directions .

I could see it as a way to remove a factory coating before use? Maybe? But yeah, it seemed weird.

[Robenco15]

3 minutes ago, chromedome said:

I could see it as a way to remove a factory coating before use? Maybe? But yeah, it seemed weird.

My only thought is it works in a 600+ pizza oven, but not so much in a home oven. I did learn course salt pops and explodes at 550F. 

[chromedome]

1 minute ago, Robenco15 said:

My only thought is it works in a 600+ pizza oven, but not so much in a home oven. I did learn course salt pops and explodes at 550F. 

I doubt it.

 

The whole point of seasoning a pan is to coat it with a layer of polymerized lipids. There just aren't any in salt. It's a great tool for cleaning a pan once seasoned, but... it just makes no sense to push that as a seasoning method. So strange.

(Please understand, I'm not dunking on you. Given two methods for a specific task, one of which is messy and smelly and one of which is not, I might also have opted for the cleaner, simpler option.)

[Robenco15]

Just now, chromedome said:

I doubt it.

 

The whole point of seasoning a pan is to coat it with a layer of polymerized lipids. There just aren't any in salt. It's a great tool for cleaning a pan once seasoned, but... it just makes no sense to push that as a seasoning method. So strange.

(Please understand, I'm not dunking on you. Given two methods for a specific task, one of which is messy and smelly and one of which is not, I might also have opted for the cleaner, simpler option.)

Oh you’re good. I was just following the instructions that came with it. Either way, it’s seasoned now. Going to have another go at a pizza today. 

[Robenco15]

So I bought a 10x5x3 loaf pan that fits in my chamber vac perfectly. I mixed 1kg of the Mod Pizza neapolitan pizza dough in my cambro (dissolving the salt into the water before adding the flour), took the shaggy dough and put it in the loaf pan and into the vac chamber. 4 cycles at max vacuum and I was pulling a window pane and fully developed the gluten. No need to get the kitchenaid out at all and run it for 10-12 minutes and stress the motor. Holy shit. This is a game changer.

[Robenco15]

Thoughts on baking the Al Taglio dough without sauce Friday afternoon and then topping and reheating in the oven Saturday afternoon?

[scott123]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:58 PM, Robenco15 said:

4 cycles at max vacuum and I was pulling a window pane and fully developed the gluten.

 

4 rises (without a vacuum, just using the yeast to inflate) will have the same effect.  Movement/friction develops gluten, and a rising dough is a moving dough.  Beyond gluten development, time hydrates the flour particles in dough. This is the foundation for no knead breads.

 

On 7/27/2023 at 3:24 PM, Robenco15 said:

Thoughts on baking the Al Taglio dough without sauce Friday afternoon and then topping and reheating in the oven Saturday afternoon?

 

It's easy to look at pizza and assume that the cheese is being melted by the heat raining down on it from above.  The reality, though, is that as the dough cooks, steam rises, and that steam cooks the cheese from below.  The end results is the difference between fried cheese (bubbled, umami rich, buttery, flavorful) and broiled cheese (typically just browned on the top with a white milky, less flavorful layer underneath).  When you fail to bubble cheese, you're burying potentially delicious butterfat inside milky undermelted cheese.

Now, there are styles that promote milky unbubbled cheese, like Neapolitan, but, Al Taglio is not one of those styles. For Al Taglio, you want the cheese bubbled from the steam that the raw dough gives off during baking.  If you parbake the dough in advance, that steam is gone, and instead of being a bottom heat source, the airy baked crust becomes a powerful insulator and the cheese gets almost no heat from below.

 

This is what tends to happen when you try to melt cheese on a parbaked crust:

https://www.goodenessgracious.com/100-calorie-english-muffin-pizzas.html

[Robenco15]

6 minutes ago, scott123 said:

 

4 rises (without a vacuum, just using the yeast to inflate) will have the same effect.  Movement/friction develops gluten, and a rising dough is a moving dough.  Beyond gluten development, time hydrates the flour particles in dough. This is the foundation for no knead breads.

 

 

It's easy to look at pizza and assume that the cheese is being melted by the heat raining down on it from above.  The reality, though, is that as the dough cooks, steam rises, and that steam cooks the cheese from below.  The end results is the difference between fried cheese (bubbled, umami rich, buttery, flavorful) and broiled cheese (typically just browned on the top with a white milky, less flavorful layer underneath).  When you fail to bubble cheese, you're burying potentially delicious butterfat inside milky undermelted cheese.

Now, there are styles that promote milky unbubbled cheese, like Neapolitan, but, Al Taglio is not one of those styles. For Al Taglio, you want the cheese bubbled from the steam that the raw dough gives off during baking.  If you parbake the dough in advance, that steam is gone, and instead of being a bottom heat source, the airy baked crust becomes a powerful insulator and the cheese gets almost no heat from below.

 

This is what tends to happen when you try to melt cheese on a parbaked crust:

https://www.goodenessgracious.com/100-calorie-english-muffin-pizzas.html

Oh I absolutely understand the concept of no knead. Was amazed how quickly and efficiently the chamber vac method worked. Was my first time trying it. 
 

In terms of the Al Taglio, the pizza dough just went in the oven. Your comment was 5 minutes too late haha! No worries though, will proceed as planned and tomorrow brings what it brings. All a learning opportunity. 
 

Hell, if this pizza dough doesn’t come out of the pan today I’m making sheet pan pizzas tomorrow I guess and this was just a massive waste of flour. 

[scott123]

1 hour ago, Robenco15 said:

Was amazed how quickly and efficiently the chamber vac method worked. Was my first time trying it. 

 

How long did the 4 cycles take?

 

You can't completely match the cheese bubble you achieve with raw dough, but, there are a few steps you can take to mitigate the impact.

 

1. Try to get your hands on a well aged mozzarella.  Fresh mozzarella has a higher water content, and water is an effective insulator.  Fresh mozzarella also has a stronger protein structure, which, in turn, resists melting. It's a little more expensive, and can be hard to track down, but unsmoked scamorza is mozzarella that's seen a bit more aging. As mozzarella ages, it turns yellow.  Look for the yellowest cheese you can find.

 

2. The final shape of the mozzarella can either promote or resist melting- the larger/thicker it is, the more resistance, the less likely it will bubble..  Assuming you're going with what appears to be the same pre-sliced cheese... that may be okay, although you might get a slightly better melt with grating.  

3. Fat is a good heat distributor and goes a long way to help cheese bubble.  Some folks turn to fattier aged cheeses like cheddar, but, I don't think the sharpness of cheddar works on pizza.  I've grated mozzarella, spread it out and then misted it with oil.  I've also frozen butter and microplaned it on the top of the cheese before it goes in the oven.  I've also taken grated mozzarella, put it in a plastic bag, added some water (not too much) and some oilive oil and massaged it to distribute the oil.  Try to keep the oil/fat localized to the cheese, since it won't do much for you melt wise if it's in the sauce- other than turn the sauce orange.

 

4. Water helps- not in the cheese, but, water on the cheese helps delay the skin that wants to form and keeps the cheese liquid longer.  Your sauce-on-top approach is a step in that direction, although you want to be careful, as too much sauce on top of the cheese will insulate the cheese too much.  Case in point, Chicago deep dish- but that's obviously a different animal.

 

If you're looking at these workarounds and scratching your head as to why i go to such great lengths to make cheese bubble, it's because I grew up with mozzarella that was aged longer then the mozzarella is aged now, so achieving a good melt, even with raw dough, is very difficult.

Edited July 28, 2023 by scott123 (log)

[Robenco15]

25 minutes ago, scott123 said:

 

How long did the 4 cycles take?

 

You can't completely match the cheese bubble you achieve with raw dough, but, there are a few steps you can take to mitigate the impact.

 

1. Try to get your hands on a well aged mozzarella.  Fresh mozzarella has a higher water content, and water is an effective insulator.  Fresh mozzarella also has a stronger protein structure, which, in turn, resists melting. It's a little more expensive, and can be hard to track down, but unsmoked scamorza is mozzarella that's seen a bit more aging. As mozzarella ages, it turns yellow.  Look for the yellowest cheese you can find.

 

2. The final shape of the mozzarella can either promote or resist melting- the larger/thicker it is, the more resistance, the less likely it will bubble..  Assuming you're going with what appears to be the same pre-sliced cheese... that may be okay, although you might get a slightly better melt with grating.  

3. Fat is a good heat distributor and goes a long way to help cheese bubble.  Some folks turn to fattier aged cheeses like cheddar, but, I don't think the sharpness of cheddar works on pizza.  I've grated mozzarella, spread it out and then misted it with oil.  I've also frozen butter and microplaned it on the top of the cheese before it goes in the oven.  I've also taken grated mozzarella, put it in a plastic bag, added some water (not too much) and some oilive oil and massaged it to distribute the oil.  Try to keep the oil/fat localized to the cheese, since it won't do much for you melt wise if it's in the sauce- other than turn the sauce orange.

 

4. Water helps- not in the cheese, but, water on the cheese helps delay the skin that wants to form and keeps the cheese liquid longer.  Your sauce-on-top approach is a step in that direction, although you want to be careful, as too much sauce on top of the cheese will insulate the cheese too much.  Case in point, Chicago deep dish- but that's obviously a different animal.

 

If you're looking at these workarounds and scratching your head as to why i go to such great lengths to make cheese bubble, it's because I grew up with mozzarella that was aged longer then the mozzarella is aged now, so achieving a good melt, even with raw dough, is very difficult.

Wow, thanks so much! Will read through this a few times and decide how best I want to go about it. 
 

It takes 30-40 seconds for a cycle so approximately 2 minutes to run 4 cycles? I just did it for a back up sheet pan pizza. Mixed water, yeast, SD discard, salt, oil, and flour by hand until it was all together, threw it in the loaf pan and into the vac chamber. Took it out after 4 cycles, balled it, and put it back in a cambro to bulk. 

[Robenco15]

Kenji doing a NYC pizza tour on instagram. I need to get to l’Industrie

[weinoo]

19 minutes ago, Robenco15 said:

Kenji doing a NYC pizza tour on instagram. I need to get to l’Industrie

 

L'Industrie is one of my favorites...as a matter of fact, the pizzaiolo was one of the original chefs at Cervo's - we were sad when he went off to L'Industrie, but he does a great job.

[scott123]

7 hours ago, Robenco15 said:

Kenji doing a NYC pizza tour on instagram. I need to get to l’Industrie

 

I went when it first opened.  I wasn't impressed.

[Robenco15]

Working on replicating L’Industrie. Not very close yet. Used Mod Pizza’s direct dough brought down to 62%. 75% CM Hi Protein and 25% Caputo Nuvola for the flour. Next time going to use thier NY style with the poolish (Master Recipe) and bring it to 65% with similar flour ratios. 
 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Robenco15 (log)

[Robenco15]

More L’Industrie inspired pizza. 

 

This one is 75% Cairnspring Mills Glacier Peak and 25% Caputo Nuvola at 65% hydration with a Poolish pre-ferment made from Glacier Peak.  Recipe is a modified Mod Pizza NY Style Master Dough. 

Eventually I’ll get some Petra flour and really have a go at replicating their pizza. L’Industrie isn’t using Cairnspring Mills 😆(and neither should you now that they’ve gotten rid of free shipping). 

 

Topped with burrata, basil, olive oil, and parmesan (and looks like my wife did a sprinkle of oregano). Bianco Dinapoli Rustic Crush tomatoes (much better than their 28oz cans) blended with 1% salt for the sauce and Caputo Bros Creamery Fior di Pizza. Was delicious. The second one was even better, but I never took a picture of it 😂 

 

Made a High Hydration Artisan dough today with my sourdough starter. That should be good on Tuesday. Have also made some stellar Neapolitans with Biga. Really disappointed Mod Pizza ignored Biga, but fortunately there is plenty out there already. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Robenco15 (log)

[Robenco15]

85% Hydration Sourdough

 

This is the high hydration Artisan Dough from Mod Pizza, subbed poolish for sourdough and let it bulk at 85F for 3 hours before cold fermenting for 48 hours. Balled it and then let it sit at RT for 4 hours before baking. 

 

 

50% Trailblazer

50% KA Bread Flour

 

I baked these in the Ooni, but maybe would have benefited from the steel in the oven. Crispier exterior would have been nice. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Robenco15 (log)

[Mike H]

6 hours ago, Robenco15 said:

85% Hydration Sourdough

 

 

50% Trailblazer

50% KA Bread Flour

 

I baked these in the Ooni, but maybe would have benefited from the steel in the oven. Crispier exterior would have been nice. 

Looks beautiful, though on my Ooni I have decided it will take a lot to convince me to try anything beyond 65% hydration.
Really looking forward to experimenting with my new Bertazzoni induction burners/electric oven range (model PROF304INXT) coming next week. It has so many baking options, including a "pizza" setting. If people have experience with Bertazzoni they can share... mike_h at yahoo dot com - thanks in advance!

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Mike H (log)

[Robenco15]

56 minutes ago, Mike H said:

Looks beautiful, though on my Ooni I have decided it will take a lot to convince me to try anything beyond 65% hydration.
Really looking forward to experimenting with my new Bertazzoni induction burners/electric oven range (model PROF304INXT) coming next week. It has so many baking options, including a "pizza" setting. If people have experience with Bertazzoni they can share... mike_h at yahoo dot com - thanks in advance!

 

Interesting. I do above 65% somewhat frequently. 75% was the most before this one. Probably won’t go past 75%. 

[Robenco15]

Figured out I can fit a 20” pizza in my oven so here I am making a legitimate NY style pizza to 20” and it’s incredible. The trick is a pizza screen (gasp!) on top of the steel to help set the bottom and crust for the first 3-4 minutes and then sliding it off and putting it directly onto my 16x16 steel for the final 4-5 minutes. This was the Mod Pizza NY Master Dough with Poolish with the hydration brought down to 62%. Dough ball was 982g, so still too big. Going to multiply everything by 0.8 and see where we are there. 
 

 

Snapped my pizza cutter 🤣 worthy pizza to lose it on!

[Mike H]

1 hour ago, Robenco15 said:

Figured out I can fit a 20” pizza in my oven so here I am making a legitimate NY style pizza to 20” and it’s incredible. The trick is a pizza screen (gasp!) on top of the steel to help set the bottom and crust for the first 3-4 minutes and then sliding it off and putting it directly onto my 16x16 steel for the final 4-5 minutes. This was the Mod Pizza NY Master Dough with Poolish with the hydration brought down to 62%. Dough ball was 982g, so still too big. Going to multiply everything by 0.8 and see where we are there. 
 

 

Snapped my pizza cutter 🤣 worthy pizza to lose it on!

20" oven depth - wow. My pizza steels are only 14x16, and that's pretty much all I can do in my current ovens. I'm not sure about the Bertazzoni coming next week, but I'm pretty sure it's not 20".

Edited September 30, 2023 by Mike H
Hit enter before commenting (log)

[Robenco15]

1 hour ago, Mike H said:

20" oven depth - wow. My pizza steels are only 14x16, and that's pretty much all I can do in my current ovens. I'm not sure about the Bertazzoni coming next week, but I'm pretty sure it's not 20".

My GE Monogram measure to 20.75” I’d guess once I raise the steel above the back of the oven rack (has a lip to keep you from pushing a pot off the back when it’s pulled out. 

[Robenco15]

Mod Pizza NY pizza scaled down to 800g, 20” pizza

 

 

[Robenco15]

Hey it’s been awhile!

 

Since my last post I’ve been contacted about freelancing for a pizza steel company, writing articles, pizza recipes, and contributing photos of my pizza for advertising purposes. Will be nice to have a job again and work from home writing about and baking pizzas! 
 

Mod Pizza taught me a lot about pizza doughs (a ton of good and some bad) and pizza in general. I no longer use their (non pan) dough recipes as I’ve been enjoying developing my own recipes the past 3 months and have had some incredible success. I’m excited for what 2024 has in store and I’m excited to now continue making pizza in the name of a job! 
 

This thread seems to have died out but I wanted to drop in one last time. This is my Neapolitan pizza recipe baked in my home oven on a steel. 62% Hydration, 100% Caputo Pizzeria, and a 24 hour RT ferment. Baked in exactly 2 minutes 👀

 

Happy New Year everyone!

Edited January 10 by Robenco15 (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Three pies made from Artisan Pizza Dough, Kitchen Manual page 54...

 

 

 

 

 

The Artisan dough is a joy to work with and not difficult to make.  Plus it lasts and lasts.  The mushroom pizza was baked after five days fermentation.  I was too tired to measure pH of the mushroom pie, but at the start of fermentation the dough pH was 5.37, 22C.  Two days later the plain pizza was pH 5.11, 23C.  After five days the pomegranate pizza was pH 4.97, 24C.  I still have enough Artisan dough for one more pie. 

 

What is new is these pies were baked in my APO at 250C, on the 1 inch thick aluminum slab I typically reserve for my big oven.