Why Northern biscuits suck

[chromedome]

3 hours ago, Anna N said:

 I buy it frequently.🙂 Here.  available in most grocery stores here in  Southern Ontario. 

It's here on the Coast as well. I suspect it's a national product for Superstore. Don't remember if I've seen it at Sobey's as well.

[Katie Meadow]

Back to the title of this thread. Some of the worst biscuits I've ever eaten were in the South, in a variety of states. Also some very good ones. And good ones can be had anywhere if made by someone with talent in possession of good ingredients and a bit of experience. I have no doubt that the original White Lily Flour was wonderful and that many great baked goods were made from it. I also have no doubt that a good biscuit can be made from flour that isn't self-rising. I have faith that technique and perseverance will win out in the end and a great biscuit can made in almost any state in the union, maybe even Pennsylvania. I'm thinking that even I could make a really good biscuit if I put my mind to it and was willing to ingest hundreds of mediocre ones before I managed a reliable standard that made me happy.

[kayb]

1 hour ago, Katie Meadow said:

Back to the title of this thread. Some of the worst biscuits I've ever eaten were in the South, in a variety of states. Also some very good ones. And good ones can be had anywhere if made by someone with talent in possession of good ingredients and a bit of experience. I have no doubt that the original White Lily Flour was wonderful and that many great baked goods were made from it. I also have no doubt that a good biscuit can be made from flour that isn't self-rising. I have faith that technique and perseverance will win out in the end and a great biscuit can made in almost any state in the union, maybe even Pennsylvania. I'm thinking that even I could make a really good biscuit if I put my mind to it and was willing to ingest hundreds of mediocre ones before I managed a reliable standard that made me happy.

 

I actually had a very good biscuit in PA -- some little diner in Lancaster County, if I recall correctly. 

 

Have had some awful ones in the South, up to and including at a restaurant I love, where everything else they make is good but the biscuits are leaden. There are only three tricks to biscuits -- well, four: a soft flour, cold fat, a soft dough, and working it the bare minimum to make it come together.

 

I do prefer buttermilk biscuits to those made with sweet milk, but will turn down neither. The buttermilk reacts with the baking powder to give a higher rise. Same thing can be accomplished by stirring in a little yogurt or sour cream.

 

(As proof of my biscuit credentials I submit the fact I won the biscuit contest in sixth grade 4H.)

[Lisa Shock]

4 hours ago, Katie Meadow said:

Back to the title of this thread. Some of the worst biscuits I've ever eaten were in the South, in a variety of states. Also some very good ones. And good ones can be had anywhere if made by someone with talent in possession of good ingredients and a bit of experience. I have no doubt that the original White Lily Flour was wonderful and that many great baked goods were made from it. I also have no doubt that a good biscuit can be made from flour that isn't self-rising. I have faith that technique and perseverance will win out in the end and a great biscuit can made in almost any state in the union, maybe even Pennsylvania. I'm thinking that even I could make a really good biscuit if I put my mind to it and was willing to ingest hundreds of mediocre ones before I managed a reliable standard that made me happy.

 

With a good recipe (no shortening!!!) you should get decent biscuits the first time. A small batch only makes 6-8 biscuits, so it's not that big of a commitment. And, you can easily halve or quarter a recipe. You should be close to perfection with maybe 3 tries. I think you should go for it!

[ElsieD]

15 minutes ago, Lisa Shock said:

 

With a good recipe (no shortening!!!) you should get decent biscuits the first time. A small batch only makes 6-8 biscuits, so it's not that big of a commitment. And, you can easily halve or quarter a recipe. You should be close to perfection with maybe 3 tries. I think you should go for it!

Who has a good recipe that they swear by?

[Lisa Shock]

38 minutes ago, ElsieD said:

Who has a good recipe that they swear by?

posting now, check out Recipe Gullet in ten minutes.

Note that on the lightly laminated, I personally do two careful book folds, but I only put one in the recipe because I think two is a bit difficult for someone who isn't used to making laminated doughs.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Lisa Shock (log)

[andiesenji]

3 hours ago, ElsieD said:

Who has a good recipe that they swear by?

The very simple one I posted on the first page, along with a photo. 

I've been preparing them for 60-some years.

[Ann_T]

On 11/24/2018 at 10:25 AM, chromedome said:

It's here on the Coast as well. I suspect it's a national product for Superstore. Don't remember if I've seen it at Sobey's as well.

 

@Anna N , @chromedome I remember seeing flour with baking powder  on the shelves in the US when we lived there, but   I've never noticed it  here.   Probably because it isn't something that I have ever had a need for. 

 

[ElsieD]

9 minutes ago, Ann_T said:

 

@Anna N , @chromedome I remember seeing flour with baking powder  on the shelves in the US when we lived there, but   I've never noticed it  here.   Probably because it isn't something that I have ever had a need for. 

 

 

The brand name is Brodie.

[chromedome]

Yeah, the self-rising part is neither here nor there IMO. Even White Lily posts self-rising and regular versions of biscuit recipes on its website.

 

 

[Anna N]

1 hour ago, Ann_T said:

 

@Anna N , @chromedome I remember seeing flour with baking powder  on the shelves in the US when we lived there, but   I've never noticed it  here.   Probably because it isn't something that I have ever had a need for. 

 

 I would be rather surprised to learn it was not available in your area simply because so many British recipes called for it. And they are an awful lot of Brits out where you are. 

[andiesenji]

A friend who lives (and BAKES) in Canada has no trouble finding  Self-Rising flour  at BULK BARN in Ontario. 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by andiesenji (log)

[Anna N]

2 hours ago, andiesenji said:

A friend who lives (and BAKES) in Canada has no trouble finding  Self-Rising flour  at BULK BARN in Ontario. 

 

 

 Yes. It is actually the same brand that is on the supermarket shelves around here.

[Ann_T]

11 hours ago, Anna N said:

 I would be rather surprised to learn it was not available in your area simply because so many British recipes called for it. And they are an awful lot of Brits out where you are.  

I 'm sure you are right Anna. But since it isn't  a product I've ever needed or am likely to need I've  never looked for or noticed.

Even if a recipe called for self rising it can be adapted  by using all purpose flour with the addition of baking powder and salt.

[andiesenji]

2 hours ago, Ann_T said:

I 'm sure you are right Anna. But since it isn't  a product I've ever needed or am likely to need I've  never looked for or noticed.

Even if a recipe called for self rising it can be adapted  by using all purpose flour with the addition of baking powder and salt.

Not really, if you want a correct result, substitution of all-purpose flour does not work.

The thing with the self-rising flours for baking TENDER quick breads is, as pointed out in the literature from King Arthur (which behaves like the White Lily, Martha Washington, Red Band flours of 30 years ago, before the companies were purchased by a MEGA-corportation and they no longer MILLED the flour in multiple stages the way White Lily was milled in Knoxville, Tennessee from SOFT-WHEAT)  

as does my favorite, ODLUMS SELF-RAISING flour which is an Irish product and superior to any others I have tried.

ALL-PURPOSE flour is milled from HARD WINTER WHEAT.   It does not behave the same as soft-wheat flour, and in my opinion trying to substitute it for one defeats the purpose.  

If you don't want to be bothered by buying self-rising flour made with soft-wheat then use a regular recipe with all the individual ingredients.  

Biscuits or scones will be heavier, the crumb/texture will be denser and they won't rise the way they should.  

Some bakers use 1/3 cake flour combined with 2/3 all-purpose to "lighten" the flour.  The results, in my opinion, are marginally better but the reason some commercial bakeries buy a proprietary product made with soft-wheat is because it is better for those particular products.

A friend who worked for a commercial distributor in Baltimore has said that the bakeries with the best ratings for cakes, quick breads, etc., use Wilkins Rogers Soft Wheat flours.

 

 

[ElsieD]

The brand of flour I use is Robin Hood.  I looked on their web site and they have Cake and Pastry Flour, made from soft wheat.

[Anna N]

4 hours ago, Ann_T said:

I 'm sure you are right Anna. But since it isn't  a product I've ever needed or am likely to need I've  never looked for or noticed.

Even if a recipe called for self rising it can be adapted  by using all purpose flour with the addition of baking powder and salt.

  Absolutely. I frequently do that myself. I certainly wasn’t finding fault with your shopping skills! There are many products I do not know exist until somebody points them out to me. If they don’t belong on my radar they don’t exist. And if they are on the top shelf or the bottom shelf I won’t see them anyway—bifocals do that. 

[Arey]

1 hour ago, Anna N said:

And if they are on the top shelf or the bottom shelf I won’t see them anyway—bifocals do that

Too true.

[Kim Shook]

On 11/23/2018 at 3:16 AM, andiesenji said:

Whit Lily flour is NOT what it was 30 years ago!  When Smuckers bought the company they moved production from Tennessee where it was milled a certain way and and changed the method and the flour changed a lot.

I used White Lily and had for decades and I noticed the difference.

 

I use King Arthur self-rising flour which is now fairly easy to find and is very good.  However my FAVORITE self-raising flour, which is better than King Arthur, but more expensive, is ODLUMS which is an Irish product and is Odlums "CREAM" flour with the ingredients that make it self-raising.

 

I happened to make biscuits today - a very simple recipe.  One cup of heavy cream, 2 cups of King Arthur self-rising flour.  I use a Danish dough whist to mix because it blends the ingredients more rapidly with less working of the dough. Which is very important to keep the biscuits from being tough.

If you use heavy cream, you don't have to cut butter into the dry ingredients because the heavy cream contains enough fat to replace the butter.

These have a natural "split" area because I pat the dough even, roll it out to about 1/2 inch thick, fold it in half and roll lightly so it is 3/4" thick, cut and bake.

 

 

Temp?  Time?  Making these tonight.  Thanks!!!

[andiesenji]

2 hours ago, Kim Shook said:

Temp?  Time?  Making these tonight.  Thanks!!!

400° F.   20 minutes  - check them at 17-18 minutes, some ovens run hot.

[demiglace]

21 hours ago, Anna N said:

 I would be rather surprised to learn it was not available in your area simply because so many British recipes called for it. And they are an awful lot of Brits out where you are. 

 

Brodie is available at Real Canadian Superstore out here. (BC)

[Kim Shook]

I made @andiesenji's cream biscuits tonight.  I didn't have any self-rising flour, but did have cake flour, so I added salt and baking powder.  They were very good and incredibly easy:

I think that I undercooked them slightly because a couple of them tasted of flour.  I will definitely be making these again.

 

[gfweb]

Thank goodness this conversation is available forever. What a resource and a joy eG is!

[Lisa Shock]

1 hour ago, Kim Shook said:

I made @andiesenji's cream biscuits tonight.  I didn't have any self-rising flour, but did have cake flour, so I added salt and baking powder.  They were very good and incredibly easy:

I think that I undercooked them slightly because a couple of them tasted of flour.  I will definitely be making these again.

 

 

I suspect that making them less tall might be the answer. I see you got good browning on the tops and bottoms, so, also, you might want to consider dropping your oven temperature by 10° or so.

 

Anyway, I am glad you made some biscuits and they turned out well. Honestly, IMO, more people should make them -and more often. They are so easy to make, I laugh when see I packaged biscuits at my local supermarket. Small children can be taught to make great biscuits. I hope @Katie Meadowgives them a shot soon!

 

One additional note, there is whole wheat pastry flour out there -both regular and albino white. If desired, a person can substitute up to half the flour in a biscuit recipe to make a whole grain one. (don't go 100%, the texture will be too gritty) Obviously, they will never be as tender and light as the 100% cake flour, or self-rising flour ones, but they will satisfy the person who prefers whole wheat breads.

[Ann_T]

I looked in Thrifty's Foods and couldn't find self rising, but I did find it in Country Grocer.  Not something I am liable to ever buy if for no other reason than the price.   

They want $8.97 for a 2.5 kilo bag.  My favourite bread flour that I buy at Costco is $13.00 for a 20 kilo bag.  

I decided to bake scones using just cream rather than butter and cream.   Red currant scones. 

 

Texture is different and no discernible layers but the flavour was good, and the texture light.  I used my regular recipe   Same flour and same baking powder.   Just left

out the butter.  One plus is the lower calorie count without the butter.