Gardening: (2016– )

[TicTac]

22 hours ago, dcarch said:

 

Sure, it is possible most LEDs produce UV light, question is what kind of UV  light and how strong. LEDs are monochromatic, almost single frequency (wave) devices. Unless they are specifically UV LED chips, all others are devices using phosphorus  coating to turn LED light into multi-light wave devices. The UV light from these LEDs are very weak. As someone has said, for your eyes to be damaged, you will need to tape the LED to your eyeball.

 

dcarch

 

 

Not sure where you come up with the 'LEDs are monochromatic' bit -

 

My KIND LED Grow bar has multiple color spectrum's....

 

 

[dcarch]

4 hours ago, TicTac said:

Not sure where you come up with the 'LEDs are monochromatic' bit -

My KIND LED Grow bar has multiple color spectrum's....

As far as I know there is no such thing as white LEDs. They all come in different narrow band wave lengths (monochromatic), from IR to UV. 

By modifying LEDs, "white" can be achieved.

dcarch

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by dcarch (log)

[KennethT]

@TicTac I'm not @dcarch but what I think he meant by that is that within your light bar, each individual LED puts out a single wavelength.  Light bars put out a spectrum by using lots of different types of LEDs.  COBs are similar, but the many different LEDs are packaged within a single unit.

[TicTac]

Looking at the picture of what @dcarch linked where he had the light on in his grow tent, I believe we are comparing different technologies.

 

In his photo, you can see the light is very 'white' (hence the monochromatic comment)...

 

You will notice the light output from one of KIND's LED Grow lights is quite different...far from monochromatic; in fact (it is comprised of different color spectrum's to make up the hue you see below)

 

Perhaps with the types of LED's dcarch linked, glasses are not required?  They appear to produce light typical of what a household led 'bulb' would, clearly people do not walk around with specialized glasses in their houses - but perhaps with these 'grow' led lights, eye protection is required?

 

I am mostly curious as to whether 'grow glasses' are simply a marketing ploy (as the lights are in essence just trying to emulate the sun's UV rays) and whether standard high quality 'sun glasses' (which protect against the sun's UV rays) would suffice.

 

[KennethT]

@TicTac OK, I just checked out KIND's specs... I had always heard of them, but never got into the nitty-gritty.  According to their website, they include UV in their spectrum - it seems that their spectrum goes down to about 380nm (they don't specify directly, but that's what I inferred from their spectrum diagram).

 

In their FAQ, they mention using protective glasses because the lights are so bright, and color corrective glasses to make it easier to see what you're doing while in the purply-ness which, without color correction, it can be challenging to identify nutrient deficiencies, etc.

 

The main light I have (made by Fluence) is full spectrum white - but it is made up of hundreds of LEDs of different colors to put out a specific spectrum in specific quantities.  So, if you look at the spectral outlet of my light, its "white" is very different from a fluorescent "white" which is not tuned to create a specific spectrum, but instead made to put a "color temperature" which basically is the ratio of blue to red.  But, they specify in their information that the lowest wavelength is just above UV - so eye protection is not required - although if the light is on full brightness (an average PPFD of 1450 umol/m2/s!!) and you were spending any time under it, you' d probably want to wear sunglasses because it's like looking directly at the sun (without the UV or infrared, and very little far-red).

[TicTac]

Thanks @KennethT - what I had suspected (based on what I read from their site and others) as well.  Still curious as to whether the 'grow glasses' are a marketing gimmick or whether they are protecting from specific UV bands that 'regular' sunglasses may not. 

 

Given I am only using it for veggies (and not something that would suffer tremendously from a change in light cycle) I may just turn it off when accessing the tent...

[KennethT]

@TicTac Sunglasses generally work in a simple way.  Different materials (plastics) are transparent above certain wavelengths, but opaque to wavelengths below that threshold.  As an example, I was looking into getting a manufacturing laser for work, and when you use these types of equipment, special safety glasses are necessary - but the glasses aren't really all that special - they're made from a type of plastic that is opaque to UV (which is the wavelength the laser puts out).  In fact, the glasses look clear, because they are transparent to wavelengths above UV.  Sunglasses, in general, are made from plastic that is opaque to UV, but are tinted to dim all the light coming through them so it's comfortable to be out in bright sunshine without squinting.

 

So, normal sunglasses that say they block UV will protect your eyes from your light, but the "special" glasses would help with color correction so things don't look so purple, so you can identify problems with your plants.

 

ETA - if you don't want the special glasses, just put a normal type of light to inspect your plants for problems - you turn it on during inspection, then turn it off.

Edited February 24, 2019 by KennethT (log)

[dcarch]

KennethT explained well. Thanks.

On a separate topic. I am superstitious about white light.

 

It is an extremely competitive world for plants. Over million years of evolution and adaptation, plants have learned to utilize any and all available energy and nutrition from nature to grow faster and stronger than the plants right next  to them. It was said that if plants don't compete, we would have no trees today. I don't believe that plants would only use limited resources (light colors) for survival. I believe that white light is best for plants.

 

Sure, there can be specific colors which will promote some growth characteristic of some species, but who know what else is missing.  

 

Can humans live on vitamin pills alone?

 

dcarch

 

[KennethT]

@dcarch Exactly.  I've done a lot of research into light and plant response... it's a lot more complicated than people think.

 

Many years ago, researchers found that Chlorophyll A and B are most efficient at producing sugar when exposed to 2 different wavelengths - the blue and red, that when combined, form that magenta color that so many plant lights use.  It is also a happy accident that those colors are the most efficient in energy usage for LEDs.  As time has gone on, however, researchers have found that other wavelengths are important also... far-red induces plant stretch - too much far-red causes leggy plants... it turns out that when plants are shaded, there is a large amount of far-red present in sunlight shade - so plants developed a response to grow taller when in shade to try to get out of the shade.  Conversely, short wavelengths - like the blues, cause very limited stretch and will create much more compact plants.  For years, many people thought that green wasn't used at all by plants, but now, we know that is not true - while green is not very efficient for creating sugar for the plant, it does have a big role in plant morphology.  Also, green light is transmitted through the canopy, whereas the reds and blues are almost completely absorbed by the top of the canopy, leaving the underlying leaves in shade.  Having green in the spectrum allows more light to penetrate the canopy, giving more light to the underlying leaves - even if they don't utilize green as efficiently for photosynthesis, it is used, and some light is much better than practically nothing.  UV triggers plants to create more terpenes (the smell and flavor molecules) because these molecules help protect the plant from UV damage.

 

Personally, if I'm growing in a completely indoor environment that never sees natural sunlight, I'd want to use a full spectrum (looks white) light rather than just the blue and red.  But, if I'm in a greenhouse (or sunny windowsill), the blue and red is fine because it boosts photosynthesis, and the plant can get its other cues from the sunlight.

[Martin Fisher]

On 2/2/2019 at 3:54 PM, DiggingDogFarm said:

The reason I'm being extra careful in attempting to germinate the above mentioned seeds is that, back in 2016, I sent 150 "Baby Pequin" seeds to a guy in Brooklyn, NY—he wasn't able to get any of them to germinate! 

 

I thought—What the heck, I'll email the guy in Brooklyn again and see if he ever did see germination.

Guess what!?!?!

Two seedlings emerged the following spring (2017)!!! 

He loves the tiny plants and the chiles!

He's going to send me some seeds along with some seeds of other dwarf cultivars.

Finally—some good news for a change! 

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[Martin Fisher]

I'm a dirt poor schmuck who uses lowly $10 (when on sale) fluorescent shop-lights when I do give seedlings a little head-start inside—and I'm proud of it!!! 

I move my precious little babies as close to the shop lights as possible—even touching a bit is fine. 

I call it bulb-kissed! 

Use nice new, or fairly new, bulbs—cheap!

Has always worked great for me over the past 45+ years. 

[dcarch]

32 minutes ago, DiggingDogFarm said:

I'm a dirt poor schmuck

 

Hey schmuck, I am trying to  out schmuck you, and out cheap you !!!  

My goal is first to gain two to three  more months of vegetables from the garden, then hopefully year round supply and not having to go to supermarkets.

Not easy in zone 6, but doable. 

Yeah it's my New Green Deal. 

 

dcarch

Edited February 25, 2019 by dcarch (log)

[Martin Fisher]

14 minutes ago, dcarch said:

 

Hey schmuck, I am trying to  out schmuck you, and out cheap you !!!  

My goal is first to gain two to three  more months of vegetables from the garden, then hopefully year round supply and not having to go to supermarkets.

Not easy in zone 6, but doable. 

Yeah it's my New Green Deal. 

 

dcarch

 

 

Zone 5 here.

I used to have the set-up to easily do that with spinach and several other cool season veg à la Eliot Coleman's The Winter Harvest Handbook: Year Round Vegetable Production Using Deep-Organic Techniques and Unheated Greenhouses and Niki Jabbour's The Year-Round Vegetable Gardener: How to Grow Your Own Food 365 Days a Year, No Matter Where You Live.

But not at this location, not yet anyway.

Hopefully in the not too distant future, if I'm physically able.

This is actually a better location than where I previously lived and gardened—much better!

[KennethT]

11 hours ago, DiggingDogFarm said:

I'm a dirt poor schmuck who uses lowly $10 (when on sale) fluorescent shop-lights when I do give seedlings a little head-start inside—and I'm proud of it!!! 

I move my precious little babies as close to the shop lights as possible—even touching a bit is fine. 

I call it bulb-kissed! 

Use nice new, or fairly new, bulbs—cheap!

Has always worked great for me over the past 45+ years. 

There's nothing bad about using fluorescent shop lights for seed starting - it's actually very common.  Large growers have switched to LEDs for this just because it saves a ton of $ on energy usage, but the upfront cost is pretty high.   Before I switched to LED, I used a cheap CFL for seed starting and cloning... it worked great.  In fact, fluorescents are good for it because they put out a good amount of blue light and not as much red which helps keep plants from getting leggy.

[Martin Fisher]

11 minutes ago, KennethT said:

There's nothing bad about using fluorescent shop lights for seed starting - it's actually very common.

 

Yep!

I don't want folks to think that they need to spend a lot of money and effort to get started.

[KennethT]

15 minutes ago, DiggingDogFarm said:

 

Yep!

I don't want folks to think that they need to spend a lot of money and effort to get started.

I know what you're saying... you can actually get started for very little $$$... it doesn't take that much to keep plants happy.

 

For me personally, I've been doing experiments in growing high value crops indoors as a business.. I have some extra warehouse space, and I enjoy doing this stuff, so I figured it would be a good fit.  But growing for $ vs growing for yourself is very different, at least if you want to be profitable.  To get there, it's all about optimization, getting the best tasting, highest yields out of the least amount of resources.

[Martin Fisher]

13 minutes ago, KennethT said:

But growing for $ vs growing for yourself is very different, at least if you want to be profitable. To get there, it's all about optimization, getting the best tasting, highest yields out of the least amount of resources.

 

Been there, done that—for several years.

I grew up in agriculture and pretty much destroyed myself in agriculture—wore out, too many long hours, too much hard work, all for a pittance!

It can be a horrible way to live.

People who haven't done it haven't a clue what it's really like!

I loved what I was doing, but destroying myself in the process was pretty stupid (farmers do it all the time)—but the work had/has to be done.

[Martin Fisher]

Linda Chalker-Scott Debunks Horticultural Myths =Link=

I have both of her horticultural myth books:

The Informed Gardener and The Informed Gardener Blooms Again

Excellent!

 

[Martin Fisher]

On 1/13/2019 at 11:46 PM, DiggingDogFarm said:

Seed orders...

I'll be ordering from a few different vendors this year.

I think I have the Fedco Seeds order nearly complete.

 

204PR Provider Bush Green Bean

3866 Matchbox Hot Pepper—I love this little pepper! 

3099 Sea Kale Perennial  (If Available) An amazing plant!
1239LO Little Leaf H-19 Pickling Cucumber
1243MG Mexican Sour Gherkin Specialty Cucumber
318SR Scarlet Runner Pole Bean
798LG Gard-N Combination Legume Inoculant
2301AR Arat Root Parsley
2590CM Caucasian Mountain Perennial Spinach (Hablitzia Tamnoides) I wish they wouldn't call it 'spinach!' GRRRrrr!!! 
3034PS Perpetual Spinach Chard (Leaf Beet) Also NOT a spinach!
3096KH Good King Henry (If Available)
4225 Mountain Magic Small-Fruited Tomato (Maybe—a BIG maybe!)

 

$30 and above orders ship free.

 

What are you ordering this year?

 

In the end, here's what I ordered from Fedco:

204A - Provider Bush Green Beans (2oz) 1 x $1.90 = $1.90
318A - Scarlet Runner Pole Beans (1oz) 1 x $2.10 = $2.10
792A - Alderman Shell Peas (2oz) 1 x $1.80 = $1.80
798A - Gard-N Garden Combination Inoculant Legume Inoculant (treats 8lb) 1 x $6.00 = $6.00
1239A - Little Leaf H-19 OG Pickling Cucumbers (1g) 1 x $2.00 = $2.00
1243A - Mexican Sour Gherkin Specialty Cucumbers (0.2g) 1 x $2.50 = $2.50
2439A - Evergreen Hardy White Scallions (1/16oz) 1 x $1.70 = $1.70
2590A - Caucasian Mountain Spinach ECO Perennial Greens (0.1g) 1 x $2.70 = $2.70
3050A - Claytonia Specialty Greens (0.5g) 1 x $2.20 = $2.20
3096A - Good King Henry Perennial Greens (0.5g) 1 x $2.10 = $2.10
3099B - Sea Kale Perennial Greens (2g) 1 x $4.60 = $4.60
3182A - Golden Purslane OG Specialty Greens (0.5g) 1 x $2.10 = $2.10
3195A - Turkish Rocket ECO Perennial Greens (1g) 1 x $3.60 = $3.60
3831A - Jaluv An Attitude OG Hot Peppers (0.2g) 1 x $2.20 = $2.20
3866B - Matchbox OG Hot Peppers (0.4g) 1 x $4.00 = $4.00
4585A - Lavender OG Lavender (0.2g) 1 x $1.80 = $1.80
5282C - Empress of India Nasturtiums (27g) 1 x $5.00 = $5.00

[kayb]

Probably not planting anything this year; we're going to be (hopefully) moving in the spring, so unless it's early enough I can plant after we move, no gardening. Once we move, top priorities will be to establish beds for tomatoes, asparagus and herbs. Beyond that, we shall see.

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Most of my English peas are not doing well.  The leaves at the bottom of the plants start to turn brown until the whole plant dies.  All I can think of is that it may be too warm.

 

Thoughts?

 

[KennethT]

8 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Most of my English peas are not doing well.  The leaves at the bottom of the plants start to turn brown until the whole plant dies.  All I can think of is that it may be too warm.

 

Thoughts?

 

Can you post any pictures?

[Martin Fisher]

FWIW.

This year's Adaptive Seeds order: 

 

Fava Bean, Aprovecho Select (Organic) 2 oz ≈ 30 seeds, 3 packets for $11.40
Lettuce, Little Gem Pearl Romaine (Organic) 1/2 g packet ≈ 300 seeds $3.50
Green Onions, White Spear, Perennial (Organic) 2 g packet ≈ 400 seeds $6.50
Hot Pepper, Korean Kimchi (Organic), 1 g ≈ 100 seeds $6.80
Sweet Pepper, Stocky Red Roaster (Organic) Packet ≈ 30 seeds $3.80
Ground Cherry, Otto's Brush Creek (Organic) Packet ≈ 50 seeds $3.50
Tomato, Sweet Cherriette (Organic) Packet ≈ 30 seeds $3.50
Barley, Purple Valley, Hulless (Organic) 4 oz $5.50
Millet, Hells Canyon (Organic) 4 g ≈ 1,200 seeds $3.50
Napa Cabbage, Nozaki Early (Organic) 1 g ≈ 250 seeds

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

3 hours ago, KennethT said:

Can you post any pictures?

 

 

Ignore the dates, these were replanted.

 

 

[KennethT]

24 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

 

Ignore the dates, these were replanted.

 

 

Did they have enough water? The older growth is completely desiccated and the newer growth on the left has some major nutrient deficiencies, which could either come from lack of water, or rotted roots (if the soil was consistently too wet).