Sous vide for a newbie?

[paulraphael]

6 hours ago, btbyrd said:

Polyscience bought Sous Vide Dash and rebranded it as the Polyscience Sous Vide Toolbox app.

 

Ahh, interesting. Are they actively developing it? 

 

I hope they keep it a generally useful tool and don't find a way to bind it to some proprietary technology.

 

Edited to add: based on iTunes store reviews, it sounds like they rebranded it and changed the color from yellow to red.

Edited June 6, 2016 by paulraphael (log)

[EnriqueB]

On ‎07‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 1:30 AM, paulraphael said:

 

Ahh, interesting. Are they actively developing it? 

 

I hope they keep it a generally useful tool and don't find a way to bind it to some proprietary technology.

 

Edited to add: based on iTunes store reviews, it sounds like they rebranded it and changed the color from yellow to red.

 

 

Changed the color, and removed all equipment brands except Polyscience ones. Still there are generic circulating and non-circulating though, which should do the job.

 

For a while both versions were available in the App Store, but SousVideDash was removed about a couple of months ago, which is a pity.

[Okanagancook]

Btbyrd, my brother keeps his poly science rig in the basement...much quieter.  I love my poly science rig.  It is large but very efficient.  Great for dinner parties with six people.  Had mine for about 8 years.  Yes, much more expensive than the news ones and not as sleek looking.

[Spork]

On June 6, 2016 at 10:48 AM, KennethT said:

I love Sous Vide Dash, and use it regularly.  It is especially useful for doing gradient cooking - using a bath temperature that is higher than your target core temperature.

 

The developer, an eGullet member Vengroff who doesn't seem to be active lately, did a kickstarter campaign a while back for an automated knob for a range hob that could be used for sous vide, simmering, beer brewing, etc., on the stove top, but the company was absorbed by a larger appliance manufacturer, and dropped the kickstarter.

 

Please don't take me as being terse, I'm talking to myself, as well as you. 

 

Gradient means just that, a differential. I prefer it to come out of the bath consistent, then typically sic some form of Maillard on it. 

 

Is the gradient method simply for speed?

[KennethT]

@Spork I don't usually use the gradient method for meat - I use it for some fish, typically salmon.  My wife and I prefer our salmon pretty rare in the middle (I shoot for a core temp of 102F); at this point it flakes, but is incredibly moist and succulent.  But, having that texture, consistently edge to edge, is not that appealing, plus, it's very delicate and hard to move without breaking into pieces.  So, I set my bath temp to 115, and go for a core temp of 102.  115F is still not overcooked, but has a little resistance - plus, I torch it to get some color which adds a little bite to the outside as well.  Doing it this way also has the added benefit of dramatically speeding up the process, especially on a thicker piece of salmon, which we prefer.

 

Some people, not necessarily me, get a little 'weirded-out' when they see meat that is very uniformly rare - they feel it is unnatural.  So, if I was having people over for dinner, and knew I had people like that in the bunch, I could cook their portions separately (in advance) with a gradient and label the bag.  That way everyone is happy, and it's very little extra effort on my part.

[rotuts]

@KennethT

 

  excellent points

[Smithy]

So...you enablers and provocateurs, my Anova WiFi arrived earlier this week. I did some center-cut pork chops for the first run.  Maybe they were more tender than usual, maybe not.  I probably should follow the above-cited Get Started With Sous Vide - Your First Week's Menu and follow it step by step, but I have brisket on hand and have decided to jump on it.  We purchased it for smoking and had it vacuum-sealed in three chunks at the butcher's. The first chunk we did in the smoker alone, before I gave into the sous vide temptation; although it was delicious, it was also tough. (This meat has a beautiful fat cap but is not well marbled.)  I decided to try the second chunk by tenderizing sous vide, finishing in the smoker and seeing whether it made a difference. The second chunk spent last night - 12 to 14 hours - at 135F, based on size and this information at MolecularRecipes.com. In addition to providing a succinct table, they note that some of the enzymes that help tenderize meat work well up to 140F - faster at warmer temperatures - and deactivate above that temperature. It was necessary to pull the brisket this morning and ice it (it's coming to room temp now) rather than following Chris Hennes' advice to go directly to the smoker, but now I'm getting nervous: it doesn't feel any more tender in the bag than it did before I started. I'm very afraid of overcooking it and turning it to mush, but I wonder whether it's had the right treatment - enough, at the proper temperature.

 

How do you know when a chunk of meat like this has been in the bath long enough?  Open the bag, cut, and reseal for more treatment if not ready? 

 

Does anyone have advice for me for this meat and where I should go from here? Any comments on its treatment so far?  

[rotuts]

well

 

what do you ant to do with the meat ?  you can smoke it in your smoker for as long  as you like .  it will be fine if the smoker is > 130.1 re

 

pasteur-izartion.

 

its ready too eat and tender as is.  Id guess.  but might be better a little longer re really tender for chill down and sliced thin for sandwiches  

 

BTW  keep record in a journal or what ever ;   

 

there is a third chunk ? Id do at least 24 at those temps as a beginning in the SV

 

if you re-bag  its no longer 'pasteurized'  and needs more time in the SV to re-do that.

 

as you are a but nervous :  open the bag, take a slice or to, make a note and debag or smoke for a few hours and slice thin and enjoy

 

its not going to  her mush unless there were enzymes added to the meat

 

i.e. Modern corned beef in a bag

[Smithy]

Thanks, rotuts.  I meant to mention that I have the beginnings of a lab record on paper (couldn't find a red cover) but may go with an electronic log instead, as inspired by Porthos. I neglected to write the start time yesterday for the meat, so the total hours part of the record will be incomplete for this batch.

 

We are trying to reproduce Texas-style brisket without actually going to Texas for it: meaty, juicy, tender, doesn't need to be sliced thinly to be tender, excellent warm.  At this time of year Texas is a fur piece away and a bit too hot for my liking.

[rotuts]

sounds like a fine project

 

love to see your results and study.

 

remember  if you7 salt the mat for that long  its going to be corned a bit.

 

consider just pepper for the Bath

Edited June 11, 2016 by rotuts (log)

[Porthos]

@smithy If you want a copy of my Word document for a starting point I would gladly email  you a copy. I would just need to know what version of Word you use since mine is Word 2015 or 16, can't remember which, and I'm on my laptop right now which has an older version.

[kayb]

I dearly love my Anova, successor to the SideKic that several of us here on eGullet bought a few years ago. Mine died a natural death -- controller quit working -- and I did without until Anova came along. I've encouraged a couple of other friends to try SV, with good results, but have one friend who just did not like hers, and contended she could cook as good a steak without it as with it. 

 

I probably use mine more for steak than anything, though I love it for pork loin and chops as well.  Short ribs and chuck roasts are also good; I'm contemplating doing a chuck roast sometime next week and shredding it for roast beef poboys, with jus. I've also done rouladen (think I like them better seared, and then braised in wine) and short ribs (love them after a long SV and a few minutes on a screaming hot gas grill.

 

I haven't felt the need for a second Anova. I've needed a second Instant Pot, but not often enough to pull the trigger on getting one. It's usually when I'm making yogurt and have it tied up for 8+ hours. So I try to put yogurt on at night before I go to bed. I think my next pressurized device will be a pressure canner.

[Dave the Cook]

On 6/11/2016 at 3:12 PM, Smithy said:

Does anyone have advice for me for this meat and where I should go from here? Any comments on its treatment so far?  

 

I haven't done brisket, but sources that I trust suggest much longer times. Modernist Cuisine prescribes a 7-hour smoke at 149°F followed by sous-vide bath at 146°F for 72 hours. It's worth noting that they're after exactly what you say you want: a facsimile of Texas-style barbecue.

 

ChefSteps recommends 154°F for 24 hours. However, they brine it, apply a glaze of liquid smoke (and a couple of other things) and finish it in the oven. Without having tried it, the recipe sounds as much like pastrami as smoked brisket. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't sound quite like what you're after. Having said that, the cook time alone says to me that your brisket might benefit from a longer swim in the hot bath.

[Smithy]

Thanks for that information, Dave. We finished the brisket last night in the smoker, and although the flavor was good the texture was only slightly more tender than our previous (smoker only) attempt. It wasn't anywhere near the "turning to mush" stage, so I'll try the much longer cook next time. Does Modernist Cuisine say why they start in the smoker and finish sous vide, instead of the other way around?

 

Brisket needed more time, asparagus (also sous vide) less.  I let that go too long, out of negligence. Flavor was good, though.  The asparagus recipe was from Anova's app. 

 

 

 

 

[Porthos]

Looks beautiful, smithy. As in "now I'm hungry" beautiful.

[Smithy]

A version of Chicken Cordon Bleu, based loosely on a recipe in the Anova app. I used different stuffing and seasoning but used their time, temperature and finish. The difference between chicken breast cooked sous vide and other cooking methods really is astonishing. It's as moist as people claim and quite tender. I'll use more stuffing next time and may increase the temperature slightly for texture, but this is basically a keeper.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Smithy
Speling (log)

[Smithy]

8 hours ago, Dave the Cook said:

 

I haven't done brisket, but sources that I trust suggest much longer times. Modernist Cuisine prescribes a 7-hour smoke at 149°F followed by sous-vide bath at 146°F for 72 hours. It's worth noting that they're after exactly what you say you want: a facsimile of Texas-style barbecue.

 

 

This is a follow-up question to my previous question about the order (sous vide or smoker first).  Some of the tenderizing enzymes shut off at 140F, according to what I've read, and so the recommendation for tough beef that I followed kept the temperature below that magic number.  The numbers you cite from Modernist Cuisine are higher than that.  Do they discuss the enzyme(s) in question and why they chose those particular temperatures?

[JoNorvelleWalker]

@Smithy for stuff like this I'd take MC on faith until proven wrong.  As I recall @nathanm once won a barbecue competition.

[rotuts]

PedroG in the past has several posts on temps for enzyme degradation.  I have not read MC in a while, have to get back to the gym to handle the books.

 

there is a step wise temp system where if you want a 'braise' you first use the natural  enzymes in meat to degrade parts of the meat that contract at higher temps

 

therefor they don't and the 'jus' in the meat stays in the meat and is not extruded in the bag.

 

Ill look back and try to find these refs.   it one of the things Ive wanted to try SV and never got to it.

[rotuts]

just for a reference point :   Baldwin states :

 

Brisket:

 

med-rare    130  24 - 72 hrs

 

med           140  24 - 72 hrs

 

well, slow   160  24 - 48

 

well, fast  175   12 - 24

[rotuts]

here are a few screen shots ive taken from eG re 'tender'  I hope Im allowed to post them.  all credit goes to the original posters :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

there is a stunning amount of info on eG re SV

 

i appreciate all the work the above people have done.  all credit is theirs.

Edited June 13, 2016 by rotuts (log)

[rotuts]

one other thought :

 

braise's and stew's are delicious.  but using s simple step-wise SV will give you more flavorful meat.  tender as a braise, but with all the flavor and moisture

 

still in the meat.   that flavorful liquid you get in a stew or braise ( which you turn into fantastic gravy ) with SV most of it stays in the meat.

 

you just have to use a different method for the gravy  -- a vital element of braises and stews.

 

think about the mouth-feel of a just finished stew/braise.   its a bit dry in the mouth.  you leave it in the refrig over night, and its better.  still a bit dry

 

but you have all that gravy !  some of the flavorful liquid overnight has returned to the meat.  but not as much as using a SV method in the first place.

 

and SV is attendance-less , as is a braise in the oven.  well worth trying.  meat does not have to get near 180 to be fork tender.

 

180 is just a historical number that can be supplanted with more modern cooking techniques.

 

and your SV/braise  is all packed up and ready for a rapid chill and a sojourn in the freezer for another day.

 

same amout of work approx.  for one bag and 10.

Edited June 13, 2016 by rotuts (log)

[Smithy]

@rotuts: you're right that there's a massive amount of info already here.  Thank you for that compilation; it helps a lot.

[paulraphael]

We might be a bit outside newbie territory when we get into specific enzymes...

 

If anyone wants to go farther afield, I've distilled some research on long cooks here, looking not just at texture, but at flavor development. This aspect of enzyme activity doesn't get much attention from the chefs and scientists at Modernist Cuisine. There is some research suggesting that too much cathespin activity can produce off-flavors, which are not associated with calpain. Both these enzymes produce byproducts, which are further broken down by a series of enzymes called aminopeptidases. The flavors we associate with dry-aged meat are produced by these latter enzymes. With a careful choice of temperature, we can do a very low pre-cook that emphasizes these enzymes, while avoiding development of off flavors from too much cathespin. 

 

It's theoretically possible to get the equivalent of a few week's dry aging in a few hours of pre-cook.

[rotuts]

Kudos your way

 

@paulraphael  

 

new is new

 

however, all that have posted here and Season eG memebers

 

the issue with SV

 

 its all here somewhere.

 

but myself included, Id like some things in a NutShell

 

thanks for you ref.!