Soft cooked chicken sous vide

[FeChef]

I dont know why but whenever i try to do chicken breast filets via sous vide they come out very juicy and tender....but FIRM.I usually cook them at 140F. Im looking for that juicy tender silky soft texture you get at a 4/5 star itailian restaurant with dishes like chicken marsala. I have made chicken marsala before with a traditonal braise and while the chicken was softer in texture then sous vide, its reaching the point where you could shred it with a fork.

 

I am wondering if its not so much the time and temp , but rather the method of cooking. Or possibly tenderizing enzymes like papain/bromelian that give it that soft texture.

 

Incase anyone doesnt understand what i mean by soft, imagine a raw chicken filet and how pliable it is. Similar to that but cooked all way through with at most a very slight pink tinge. Very slight if any.

[Joe Blowe]

The thought never occured to me until now, but is it possible that some Italian restaurants are velveting their chicken with cornstarch?

[FeChef]

The thought never occured to me until now, but is it possible that some Italian restaurants are velveting their chicken with cornstarch?

I thought this aswell but aside from the surface being silky from the cornstarch, ive never been able to get that extremly soft texture you get from chinese take out chicken.

 

Thats also a topic for debate. I read alot that chinese take outs use tenderizing enzymes like i mentioned in my original post. I have tried those aswell but always ended up with a salty sour tasting end result.

[huiray]

Suppose you moved away from trying to sou-vide it and returned to the tried-and-true methods of braising it, while playing around with how that older technique (including velveting techniques) is done?  (I can't imagine any Chinese take-out in the USA using sous-vide methods – as you and eG would know it – for their chicken, which you admire, for example)  There is much to be said for doing things in a traditional manner as appropriate and not ascribing to the notion that modernist cuisine or sou-vide techniques is the best way for all things nowadays.

[rotuts]

Ive always wondered why 'Hot Wok' chicken especially was so tender.  far more tender than any of the various SV temps ive used.

 

SV has a firm place for me due to ' quantity  , little extra work , and storage ( Fz ) '

 

Id like to see some real analysis on the Hot Wok chicken, and not maybe its this ...

 

however, I do wonder if in the Hot Wok, on the thin pieces, the protein  ' sets' so quickly, and its then taken out of the wok

 

so that the protein fibers do not have time to contract and become 'stiff'

 

I know this does not address your initial question, but w conventional SV temps you will not get the HotWok tender chicken.

[Shalmanese]

Do you pound the breasts? I've always found that pounding drastically increases tenderness.

[FeChef]

Suppose you moved away from trying to sou-vide it and returned to the tried-and-true methods of braising it, while playing around with how that older technique (including velveting techniques) is done?  (I can't imagine any Chinese take-out in the USA using sous-vide methods – as you and eG would know it – for their chicken, which you admire, for example)  There is much to be said for doing things in a traditional manner as appropriate and not ascribing to the notion that modernist cuisine or sou-vide techniques is the best way for all things nowadays.

Where did i say chinese take out uses sous vide method? What i am asking is if its possible to get that pliable soft chicken breast using sous vide method, or is this something that needs to be done traditionally with braising. If so, what is the reason why it doesnt seem to work using sous vide method. And if it is possible, what needs to be done to achieve this specific texture.

[FeChef]

Do you pound the breasts? I've always found that pounding drastically increases tenderness.

Yes i have tried pounding with mallet, and also jaccard. Both help tenderize but dont really make much more pliable.

[FeChef]

Ive always wondered why 'Hot Wok' chicken especially was so tender.  far more tender than any of the various SV temps ive used.

 

SV has a firm place for me due to ' quantity  , little extra work , and storage ( Fz ) '

 

Id like to see some real analysis on the Hot Wok chicken, and not maybe its this ...

 

however, I do wonder if in the Hot Wok, on the thin pieces, the protein  ' sets' so quickly, and its then taken out of the wok

 

so that the protein fibers do not have time to contract and become 'stiff'

 

I know this does not address your initial question, but w conventional SV temps you will not get the HotWok tender chicken.

I dont know why but this got me thinking about sous vide chuck roast vs smoked chuckies. I notice that sous vide a chuck roast @132F produced a firm slab of beef. While a low and slow smoked chuck roast probed @ 132F produced a slab of beef flapping all over the place. Both were cooked to the same temp but one was sous vide cooked for 24 hours and the other smoked at a low temp for at most 3-4 hours.

[FeChef]

Another theory i had was vacuum bagging would hold the muscle fibers tightly together but i use the water displacement method with ziplock bags to the chicken is loosely resting inside the bag.

[rotuts]

FC :  missed your initial 'Italian' point 

 

what do you think of HotWok chick's ?  plain lets say  ( no soy other things ) in a good HotWok place?

 

cashew chicks

 

consider the tenderness of that meat. ?

[FeChef]

FC :  missed your initial 'Italian' point 

 

what do you think of HotWok chick's ?  plain lets say  ( no soy other things ) in a good HotWok place?

 

cashew chicks

 

consider the tenderness of that meat. ?

I dont know. The only chicken dish i rarely get at a chinese take out is chicken w/broccoli which is thinly sliced strips of chicken. The chicken is always super soft and tender though. Almost unreal, and probably why that old american rumor that they use cats instead of chicken..lol

[dcarch]

Have you had the Chinese almost sous vide chicken?

 

The "White Cut" chciken?

 

dcarch

 

From Google Image:

http://dennisthefoodie.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/DSCF1196.jpg

Edited September 1, 2014 by dcarch (log)

[FeChef]

Have you had the Chinese almost sous vide chicken?

 

The "White Cut" chciken?

 

dcarch

 

From Google Image:

http://dennisthefoodie.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/DSCF1196.jpg

I dont know what your talking about. The picture you linked looks no different then what i can make. The picture does not depict how soft and pliable the chicken is. If you took that chicken and held one end up, would the other end completely flop down, or stay in a horizontal position?

Edited September 1, 2014 by FeChef (log)

[dcarch]

I dont know what your talking about. The picture you linked looks no different then what i can make. The picture does not depict how soft and pliable the chicken is. If you took that chicken and held one end up, would the other end completely flop down, or stay in a horizontal position?

It's difficult to tell texture from a picture. The cooking method gives you very tender meat.

 

From Wiki:

 

"---The chicken is salt marinated and is cooked in its entirety in hot water or chicken broth with ginger. Other variations season the cooking liquid with additional ingredients, such as the white part of the green onion, cilantrostems or star anise. When the water starts to boil, the heat is turned off, allowing the chicken to cook in the residual heat for around 30 minutes. The chicken's skin will remain light coloured, nearly white and the meat will be quite tender, moist, and flavourful. The dish can be served "rare" in which the meat is cooked thoroughly but a pinkish dark red blood secretes from the bones. This is a more traditional version of white cut chicken that is seldom served in Chinese restaurants anymore. The chicken is usually cooled before cutting into pieces.---"

 

BTW, it is a very popular dish, not what Wiki says.

 

dcarch

[FeChef]

I think rotuts made a good point about muscle fibers contracting. I remember reading a post about allowing certain fibers to break down at lower temps before reaching target temps. I believe it was a discussion on beef though. Not sure how that would relate to poultry.

 

Maybe starting at a lower temp of say 131.5F then gradually increasing to target temp of lets say 139F-140F would produce a softer more pliable result.

[rotuts]

excellent point.

 

look over the 2 hr  low temp, then a bit more temp  etc.

 

I have made that Simmer and turn off Ck in the past.  it really is nice and there are threads here about that.

 

many.

 

sorry i cant give you a ref to the 3 phase SV cook.

 

But I hope to remember it and try it myself !

 

BTW  the initial temp for the " 3 ( more ? ) phase cooking SV is much much lower.

 

less than 2 hr etc  

Edited September 1, 2014 by rotuts (log)

[FeChef]

I decided for educational purposes to try a salt/papain brine solution of roughly 3%. I could not get my hands on pure papain powder so i had to settle for 1% papain, 19% sodium per 1g. I used my hobart to make length wise 1/4 inch slices a a whole breast to simulate a filet. I will try a few different experiments with using a cornstarch slurry and sous vide at 140F and also quickly deep fried (1-2 min) and also without a slurry. Also considering a flash fry of 30 seconds and then sous vide to see if it changes the pliability aswell. Any other suggests welcome before i begin. Going to give the chicken an hour to absorb the brine.

[paulraphael]

Have you tried just giving it a little extra time in the bath? Too much would dry it out but maybe 20 or 30 minutes past cooking time would soften the texture.

[FeChef]

Have you tried just giving it a little extra time in the bath? Too much would dry it out but maybe 20 or 30 minutes past cooking time would soften the texture.

I decided to postpone the experiment till tommorow. Right now the slices are brining. Papain is only active between 140F-160F so the longer brine time shoul not make much difference. Also the sodium percent is on the lower end so i dont expect too much difference in taste.

 

Now to answer your question, yes i have in the past tried various times from 90 minutes to upwards of 12 hours. I have only noticed a fall apart texture, not a softer pliable one.

 

Has nobody noticed this with sous vide cooking? I find it hard to believe i am alone in this. Again, i am not talking about tenderness or juicy, i am only talking about the firmness of it.

[lesliec]

You're not alone.  I hadn't really thought about it, but when I SV chicken breasts, say, they come out quite firm.

 

But now I consider the matter ... I'm not certain - it's been a while since I did it - but I have a feeling modernist fried chicken, where the meat is cooked SV before breading and deep-frying, comes out tender.  A further experiment seems called for.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

As I recall traditional poached chicken comes out quite firm the same way sous vide chicken does.  I don't think the problem is in the modernist approach.

 

If you don't like poached chicken, don't poach chicken.

 

 

Edit:  my favorite use for sous vide/poached chicken is chicken tetrazzini.  Once one shreds the chicken meat it isn't firm anymore.

 

I love how one can pasteurize chicken breasts sous vide, chill them in an ice bath, throw the bags in the refrigerator, and have chicken tetrazzini at a moment's notice, more or less.

Edited September 2, 2014 by JoNorvelleWalker (log)

[weedy]

FWIW my first instinct, if you want 'softer', would be to suggest you leave it in the bath longer.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

FWIW my first instinct, if you want 'softer', would be to suggest you leave it in the bath longer.

 

I don't find this to be true, although admittedly there are a lot of variables.  For me, cooking breasts to pasteurization gives a very firm, yet tender, result.

[dcarch]

FWIW my first instinct, if you want 'softer', would be to suggest you leave it in the bath longer.

 

I seem to think the OP does not mean just "softer". May be he is looking for elastic type of "softer", which is why I think the Chinese White Cut Chicken dish's texture is closer to what he is talking about. Like raw meat, but cooked.

 

dcarch