Cooking with "Modernist Cuisine" (Part 3)

[Anna N]

Here's a link to a report of my attempt at the American Cheese Slice.

[Robert Jueneman]

Although I've skimmed all 43 pages of this thread, including a lot of the early ones about the Mac & Cheese, I don't recall any discussion of what "wheat beer" is best for the recipe....

What do people recommend?

I'd vote for any wheat beer from Germany (e.g., Weihenstaphaner, Paulaner, Franziskaner), or any American wheat beer that bills itself as a hefeweizen/hefeweiss (tons of these, especially this time of year; Sierra Nevada's Kellerweiss should be readily available and relatively inexpensive). I'd avoid witbiers (e.g., Hoegarden, Allagash White, Blue Moon) on the first go, as they tend to have some tartness and added spices that may not fit in as well. I'd also steer clear of darker (dunkel) wheat beers simply for aesthetic reasons.

TL;DR Get a German-style hefeweiss, or German or American origin.

Regrettably, Taos is not the capital of auslander beer, except maybe for Tecate. All that i was able to find in two grocery stores was Blue Moon and Hoegarden, neither of which I found particularly enticing for drinking purposes. For reasons that are shameful and I won't go into, I need to repeat the experiment, but since the recipe only calls for 75ml of beer, I doubt that it make all that much difference. And despite the purists responses, I might go for Guinness after all, as a personal preference. TBD.

Thanks, everybody!

[Sachin]

I tried making the polenta last night, but it didn't come out as expected. I'm not sure why it didn't work, but I am thinking that the clarified corn-juice didn't come out right.

Do you know what the methodology is to make the corn juice and clarify it?

Also, when I mixed the polenta and the corn juice, the proportions seemed way off with regards to a more traditional polenta. Even when I vacuum sealed it I was fairly certain that it wasn't really going to work. In some of the posts about the meals that the MC team served, I saw that the process was listed as "Grits were combined with WATER and corn juice..." Is there supposed to be some water in the recipe?

Please help!

Thanks!

[Maxime Bilet]

Hello everyone! Hope summer is treating you well! Here are a few more answers...

1. avaserfi posted some pics from recent recipe trials, along with a question:

I've been busy, but am trying to work from the book when possible. I made the duck leg confit with pommes sarladaises (3-178; 6-105), my most recent blog post. I also made the gummies (4-147; 6-267) although I didn't have worm molds, so I made owls.

The gummies had a really nice light flavor, but I don't think they turned out just right. My gummies were slightly tacky and didn't become clear like the pictures I've seen of the MC team's worms. Does anyone know what could have caused this?

avaserfi, your confit looks beautiful, especially with the pommes sarladaises!

The photo of your gummies suggests a few troubleshooting tips:

1) Take care to avoid mixing any air into the emulsion while you disperse the gelatin. Stir in the gelatin as gently as possible to avoid aeration. Do not ever whip, beat, foam, or shake the mix.

2) The photo also looks like the gelatin may not have been dispersed completely. When that happens, the gel doesn’t attain full strength, and it can take on a tacky texture. Fully dispersing and hydrating the gelatin is just as important as using the correct amount and Bloom strength.

3) Don’t skimp on the gum Arabic; it helps to produce a texture that is easy to handle.

4) Avoid overcooking the mix. If you remove too much water, the gelatin cannot do its job, and then the sticky sugar dominates the texture and can cause a cloudy appearance.

Cloudiness can also be a sign that you did not emulsify the oil fully. Try to mix all of the dry ingredients together, and incorporate the wet ones slowly. Hydrate the gelatin completely first and then mix in the oil slowly while the mixture is cooling. Use a warmed, fine pouring vessel, such as a glass beaker, to add the oil slowly and smoothly. Warming the oil makes it easier to emulsify fully. You might also try using a sauce gun or a fine funnel, which allows the mix to settle and air bubbles to float to the top. Only the clearest portion of the mix comes out the bottom.

Using an owl mold sure is cute, though. We all like how the vanilla makes it look like a “spotted ” owl.

2. In another comment, avaserfi asked:

On 3-145 there is a short discussion of wet rendering fat in a pressure cooker. The authors state one should put the fat in a canning jar with baking soda and pressure cook for four hours. What pressure, 1 bar (15psi)? Also, how does the water come into play? Does it go into the sealed (?) jar (if so, how much?) or is the jar not sealed and set open with water in the cooker?

Am I missing a more in depth discussion on the subject?

To clarify: The baking soda and fat should be loosely sealed in the jars, which are then placed in a pressure cooker. It is the pressure cooker itself—not the jars—that is then filled with water. Cook at a gauge pressure of 1 bar / 15 psi. You never want to seal the jars completely, because that could be dangerous as it results in too much pressure, raising an explosion hazard. Instead, screw the lids on part way for a loose fit.

3. ChrisZ was wondering about making not just a Modernist version of dauphinoise potatoes, but a low-fat one, too.

I'm thinking out loud here, and would appreciate any input.

I love traditional dauphinoise potatoes (scalloped potatoes to my mum), but my wife's not so keen on the amount of cream and butter that goes into them. So I'm thinking that I could adapt some of the Modernist cuisine techniques with cheese sauces to make a low-fat dauphinoise potatoes without compromising on texture or taste - perhaps even improving on texture, as I've found the cream/butter sometimes splits depending on which cheese you use.

My first thought is to start with the cheese from the Mac and Cheese recipe- but basically I'm thinking that that skim milk and a carrageenan, along with gruyere cheese and sodium citrate, should do the job nicely.

What I'm wondering is how a skim milk / hydrocolloid base would affect the cooking of the potatoes? In a traditional dauphinoise potatoes, the potatoes are actually being cooked in the cream, as opposed to the Mac and Cheese recipe where the cheese is mixed into the cooked macaroni.

So in order for this low-fat approach to work, and for the potatoes to cook in the cheese sauce, is there one type of technique or hydrocolloid that's more suitable than another?

I haven’t tried this, but I’d be interested to see what your results are! The thing about hydrocolloids is that they make for a great simulation of fat, but they aren’t as satisfying. I would recommend using whole milk rather than starting with skim milk. Cream is 30% fat, whereas whole milk is only 4% fat. You will still need some fat because much of the water is baked out of the dish in the oven. Water from the milk is still available in a hydrocolloid fluid gel, however, so the potatoes will still cook.

Try thickening it with a very light fluid gel (using about 0.4% agar) or with xanthan gum (no more than 0.2%).

And then report back!

4. Carlton wanted to know about some ingredients, which got us thinking about food grades…

Two questions on a couple of the ingredients in the book for the MC team or anyone who can help.

Is all Polysorbate 80 / Tween 80 the same, or is there one that is specifically food grade? Most of the ones I'm finding online mention using them in hair care products.

Is Glucose Syrup DE 40 roughly the same thing as Corn Syrup DE 42 which seems to be more common and easy to find?

Yes, Polysorbate 80 and Tween 80 are the same product. Basically, “chemical grade” means is that it was stored or created in a lab with other products. Because of the potential for cross-contamination, these products are labeled chemical grade.

Glucose syrup DE 40 and corn syrup DE 42 are not quite the same thing—the corn syrup is slightly sweeter—but you can substitute one for the other, as they are pretty much functionally equivalent.

5. Way upthread, JBailey asked about some of our more adventurous cooking equipment:

A quick question, if I may? I am intrigued by the 'pea butter' and would like to attempt it at some time. I know one of your pieces of equipment is the refrigerated centrifuge. While I am never one to shy from my tendency to overbuy equipment for my kitchen, I do not need to make production scale quantities. In researching other centrifuges besides the Sorvall you have in your kitchen, I find they have what seem to be small vessels, probably not not a good size for preparing something for four to six people. Do you recommend certain specs for such machines or do I need to scale up? Further, I want a machine that is safe and won't disintegrate when spun up. One last question, what is your opinion of hand-held rotor-stator homogenizers? What stator size is most useful?

The first thing that we must admit is that we work in a lab, where we have many talented professionals who are able to help us out with the maintenance of our centrifuge. Without them, our particular centrifuge would not be safe to operate.

For a domestic or restaurant kitchen, safety is paramount. Luckily, the smaller varieties of centrifuges are (usually) much safer. Our friends at Cooking Issues, FCI’s blog, wrote about their centrifuges a while back [link: http://www.cookingissues.com/2009/07/21/oh-lord-wont-you-buy-me-a-new-centrifuge/]. In their post, they write about a “bench” centrifuge they bought on eBay. DoveBid.com is another great place to find such equipment. As the Cooking Issues post demonstrates, it is absolutely necessary to sanitize any equipment bought from either site, as you don’t know what it has been used for before. In some cases, equipment has been used for hazardous materials. If so, this equipment should never be used for food use. Resellers must disclose this information upon sale though, so make sure to read all of the information they provide. It’s also a smart idea to have any centrifuge rotor you buy used x-rayed to verify that it is crack-free before use.

As for hand-held homogenizers, they do have a limited capacity. We like this one [link: http://www.amazon.com/Torbeo-Hand-Held-Homogenizer-capacity-stator/dp/B003NUVY5E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304400765&sr=1-1-catcorr] and while I haven’t used this one, [link: http://www.amazon.com/Torbeo-Hand-Held-Homogenizer-capacity-stator/dp/B003NUZQ3K] I think it looks good as well.

6. There have been various concerns over the mango sorbet, how to get it to aerate, how to best transport it, and whether it can be used with other fruits. Both Phaz and had inconsistent results. Phaz brainstormed and came up with some ideas:

I did another batch of the mango sorbet and learned a few things. I thought I'd post it here for people to capitalize on.

First, my jars just barely fit inside the VP-112. In fact, it was too snug. I could put the lid down and have them in a sweet spot where the lid wouldn't be touching the jar. However, once the vacuum started, the lid of the VP-112 would push down on the lid of the jar, sealing it, and preventing the vacuum from pulling any air out of the jars. This was the result of my jars that didn't 'fluff' up at all.

My first workaround from this was to put the jars in on their side, with the lid screwed down a bit (so the expanding mango wouldn't leak through the side). The problem with these versions is that they would sometimes collapse before they were done. Basically a few bubbles would get big and pop, which would cause others to pop, which would cause a reaction and soon it was nearly the volume I started with.

The fix for that problem was to manually stop the vacuum a bit sooner, or add a little more mango to the jar. You'd see it drop a little in volume a few times and from there had just a few seconds before total collapse (it makes sense when you try it).

The other problem here is that when the air was reintroduced to the chamber, the lid would seal on the jar, but not before letting some air in, which would reduce the foam by 50% or so.

The next thing I tried was my jar attachment. This had the same problems as above. Sometimes the seal would be pushed down too much and it would vacuum at all, sometimes it would collapse, sometimes it would go through and foam up well but extra air would collapse it some right before sealing.

I'm still working on a solution. I'm thinking maybe that universal lid that is used in an above post might work better for the last sealing step and not introduce air because of how it works (maybe) since it seems you leave it on the jar and don't use a standard lid. Maybe I can get a few of them and use them with my big jars (4 pint) to do large batches all at once. My only worry here is that, with jars that big, the mango won't have enough time to reach all the way up. I was doing it for the full 60 seconds the machine allows in the pint jars and sometimes that would just barely be enough time to get it done all the way to the top. I'm not sure how well this scales.

My other idea is to put the jars inside bags, with the lids screwed down (but not fully tight) and then putting them in the VP-112 on their side. Then letting them fully inflate and manually stopping them just before I think they are going to collapse. The hope here is that then when it reaches that point, the bag will then seal before any air is let back in. That will mean that there isn't any extra air inside the jar that can be forced into the jar collapsing things. I'm not sure if cutting the bag open after it's all done will let air in or not (depends on how well the jar seals with only outside air pressure through the bag) but I figure I can just throw the whole thing into the freezer and wait till it freezes and stabilizes before I have to worry about that.

The good thing about this recipe is that the base amount in the book gives you a LOT of jars to play with. I certainly needed all those extra attempts.

Also, I think for trying other fruits the process won't be that bad. As I found above, most my issues were caused by the sealing of the jars themselves. I think for testing fruits it's easy just to put some of it in an open jar, without a lid, and see if you can get it to foam up. I'm confident that if you can, the process will work if you can get it sealed properly.

I think someone (Nathan?) said it was the pectin that makes mangoes a good choice. I also thought I remember someone saying the citric acid helps in reacting with the pectin. I'm wondering if just using strawberries (or whatever) and citric acid and adding some pectin manually will let the same effect work. It should be easy enough to experiment with since you can remove the jar sealing from that step and just add ingredients as necessary to work on ratios.

While your trials were certainly innovative, what about using different jars? Try finding some shorter, squatter jars. You could also try using the Food Saver attachment with the plastic, Tupperware-like containers.

One trick we sometimes use in the Cooking Lab is to fill the jars via a whipping siphon. We put our base in a whipping siphon and charge it with Nitrous Oxide. This gives the base a little extra aeration before the process even starts.

Once you are successful and you want to transport the sorbet, pack a Styrofoam chest with dry ice or with ice and salt. Make sure that you don’t remove the jars from the freezer until the contents have frozen through. Even better, let them freeze overnight.

Besides mangoes, we’ve had great results with apples. We like mangoes in particular because they contain so much natural pectin. When experimenting with different fruits, you may get better results adding gelatin, rather than pectin, to provide extra stability to your foam.

The gel breaks when frozen, so you won’t end up with a gummy texture. Albumin powder would work well, too. If you add about 5% gelatin and 7% albumin to apple juice, for example, you’ll get a nice foam even before siphoning.

7. A while back Chris Hennes made the Spaghetti Carbonara. Even before even making it, he had trouble and asked:

Finally, I'm struggling to understand the Spaghetti Carbonara recipe on p. 3•384: I was going to make it tonight but realized I needed a number of clarifications before I proceed. The yield is listed as 1.5kg (30 portions), but as near as I can tell the only way to get that high would be to not drain the pasta, otherwise the input ingredients don't add up that high. But it doesn't look to me like a no-drain recipe. Is that yield number leftover from a previous scaling of the recipe? With only 100g of dry pasta and perhaps 250g of cheese gel, I don't see how to get 30 servings. Can anyone who has seen this dish comment on how it's plated? It also appears from the photo that the size of the cheese gel rectangle isn't actually 2" x 4", but perhaps more like 1" x 4". I guess this doesn't really matter much, but at this point I got lost in the details.

You are correct Chris, it’s not a no-drain recipe. This should yield 450 g, which would be eight portions. We will add this to our corrections page.

8. Our editorial assistant, Judy Wilson pointed out that the pink brines were being discussed again. Looking at the parametric recipe on page 3•168, there is a typo in the scaling of the pink brine. It should be a scaling of 1%, not 10%.

Basically, brines with a high salt content aren’t used for equilibrium brining, but a pink salt brine does not necessarily have to be a high-salt brine. Pink salts can work just fine in lower-concentration salt brines.

Regarding your questions about pastrami and brisket, the brine used for the pastrami on 3•213 is a different kind of brine. The brisket version takes longer because it takes so long for the salt to disperse throughout the meat.

9. This wasn’t a question, but we just wanted to say how great chefmd’s beets turned out. It always makes us feel good to see someone say something was the best ever. And the arrangement was stunning:

Cooked baby beets from farmers market sous vide. Eyeballed olive oil, salt, and water. I know this is redundant but: The Best Beets I Ever Cooked. Skin slipped off oh so easily with paper towel rub to reveal perfectly smooth surface. Texture had an almost imperceptible crunch and just the right degree of softness. Served with goat cheese (mixed with sour cream and heavy cream to achieve spreadable texture) and hearts of palm (Trader Joe's) drizzled with basil pesto (not MC).

We also loved FoodMan’s Fourth of July BBQ spread!

[ChrisZ]

I started making the Modernist Cuisine pasta until I worked out that I needed far more eggs than I had.

With normal OO pasta flour, the MC recipe calls for 57.6% egg yolks. I weighed the egg yolks I had and they averaged 20g each, but for 1kg flour that's 576g egg yolks, or 29 eggs!

Is it possible to use lecithin powder instead? How would you calculate the amount of lecithin powder needed to emulate an egg yolk?

It's possible that it will work out cheaper to simply use the 29 eggs, but I have no idea what I would do with 29 egg whites and adding lecithin powder to pasta seems far less decadent than so many eggs.

(BTW I had 180g of egg yolks, so I made the pasta with 310g flour. The pasta was very good, so I'll be doing it again).

[slkinsey]

Yes, pasta made with egg yolks only takes a lot of egg yolks. One thing I have taken to doing is keeping an egg yolk container in the freezer, so every time I use an egg white (e.g., in a cocktail) I dump the yolk in the container. When the container is full, it's time to make pasta!

[ChrisZ]

I am interpreting this to mean that every time I make pasta with 1kg flour, I also get to make 29 cocktails! Woo hoo!

Edited August 6, 2011 by ChrisZ (log)

[Robert Jueneman]

Sous Vide Pizza?!

That got your attention, didn't it!

This week I've tried a couple of variations on pizza a la MC, and per "Cooking for Geeks." The first attempt was the certainly the best pizza i have ever had, either at home or in a restaurant, but the second attempt was nearly a disaster.

Although there is another thread on low-effort, low-mess pizza, the entire content of the thread seems to be focussed on how to make your own pizza dough. I wanted some thing much simpler.

So I started with a run-of-the-mill Boboli thin crust pizza shell, which appears to have been par baked. I added a package of stock Boboli pizza sauce, some grocery-store shredded mozzarella, and the pre-sliced, too-thin pepperoni that was all that I could find. I did sprinkle some raw onion slices around on it . So far, it sounds like a pretty mediocre meal, right? Wrong!

So here comes the magic. Following MC, I put my Le Creuset cast-iron pizza pan in the oven, and cranked it up to the maximum of 550F for about 30 minutes or so. Then I turned the oven to Broiler setting, on High, while I spread the toppings on the pizza shell. After about 10 minutes (I didn't time it exactly, but I will the next time) I slid the pizza onto the cast-iron pan, and watched it carefully. After about four to five minutes(?) it looked ready, so I pulled it out. The crust had puffed up gloriously, especially for a thin crust pizza, and was light, airy, and a little crackly -- perfect. And the toppings were nicely bubbling, the onions were done, and so was the pepperoni slices, though they were still too thin.

Despite the imprecations of impending disaster from SWMBO, we both agreed that it was the best pizza we had ever eaten.

The next day, my Fluke 561 IR thermometer arrived, so I fired up the oven again the same way, to see what temperature it reached -- 640F.

Then last night, I decided to try it again, but this time using my gas BBQ grill. And instead of using Boboli sauce, I used some Paul Newman "Sockaroni" marinara sauce, some hand-cut Dietz and Watson pepperoni, and added a half an onion that I had sliced and cooked sous vide with butter for 45 minutes. (See, sous vide pizza!)

With all four burners fired up and the lid closed, the temperature of the Le Creuset pan reached 700F. However, despite the intense heat, the toppings were barely ready after eight minutes, and by then the pizza shell was pretty scorched. it was still edible, but barely, and it took 15 minute to scrub the carbonized debris off the pan once it cooled down again.

So the lesson to be learned is that it takes more than just high heat -- it takes radiant heat, from the broiler, in order to cook the toppings properly while not scorching the pizza shell.

If someone has a wood fired brick oven pizza and they are very happy with the results it provides, I'd be very curious to know what the temperature of the brick floor is, vs. the temperature of the air, vs. the temperature of the top of the oven that is presumably radiating downwards.

Next week I'll do this again, and also take some pictures and some better timings.

Bob

[FoodMan]

Modernist Wheat Pasta

I picked up a pasta extruder recently during Williams-Sonoma summer sale. It was down to $20 and I figured it's not a bad price to experiment a bit with making some other shapes than flat noodles. I figured that's a great excuse to try the MC pasta with Xanthan since it will help make the shapes without much sticking. Per the previous numerous posts, I was ready to add more water to the dough. I ended up with the water closer to 12% instead of 9% listed in the Best Bets on page 191. Other than that the recipe worked beautifully. I might omit the oil next time if I am using the extruder. It made the dough almost too slick and maybe omitting it will give it more of a rougher texture.

The machine works pretty well but at that price has limitations. The shapes are small macaroni, large macaroni, bucatini and fusili. Limited (maybe I can buy more dies??) but all work well except for the fusili. These come out straight and I ended up twisting them by hand to get more of a corkscrew shape.

[Okanagancook]

I am wanting to make the MC bacon but don't have the 2.2 grams of sodium erythorbate and wondering if I can substitute ascorbic acid? I've searched online and can't find the answer. Anyone know? Thanks in advance.

[Msk]

Sous Vide Pizza?!

If someone has a wood fired brick oven pizza and they are very happy with the results it provides, I'd be very curious to know what the temperature of the brick floor is, vs. the temperature of the air, vs. the temperature of the top of the oven that is presumably radiating downwards.

Next week I'll do this again, and also take some pictures and some better timings.

Bob

My wood-burning pizza oven Floor runs 800-900 F and the dome is probably 1200+ (Registers "High" on my IR thermometer)

Thats my target cooking range, I might be able to get it higher if I try, and it cooks pizzas in about 90 secs.

Mike

[LoftyNotions]

I am wanting to make the MC bacon but don't have the 2.2 grams of sodium erythorbate and wondering if I can substitute ascorbic acid? I've searched online and can't find the answer. Anyone know? Thanks in advance.

Since both sodium erythorbate and ascorbic acid each act as antioxidants, and either can be used in cured products, I'd go ahead and substitute. You could even do the recipe without either and probably couldn't tell the difference in flavor. Lots of bacon has been made without.

Here's one quick web referenceI dug up.

Nitrites have been shown to combine with amines in meat to form nitrosamines which are thought to be at least somewhat carcinogenic. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) has been shown to greatly reduce nitrosamine formation so you will find sausages that contain nitrite will also contain ascorbic acid, sodium ascorbate or sodium erythorbate for this reason.

HTH,

Larry

[DiscoJeff]

For those who have made the corn bread (5-76), did you actually use the isomalt as called for in the recipe? I'm not too familiar with this product (sugar substitute, almost as sweet, half the calories), but I assume it could be obtained from Whole Foods or similar.

Jeff

[Borgstrom]

Yes, I used isomalt. I found it online and have never seen it at my WF...

[Carlton]

You can probably find isomalt at a restaurant/baking supply place but I've never seen it in a Whole Foods or other market. I haven't tried making the cornbread without it, it's just about perfect as is so I'm scared to change it.

[KeystoneNate]

I made the corn bread this past weekend using the isomalt (obtained through Amazon). I've never seen it in a store, but my experience in the local area (small town) is hardly a good indication of the general availability of isomalt.

[Keith_W]

I cooked the Modernist beef brisket tonight, and compared it against a conventionally smoked brisket. However, I inverted the recipe for the Modernist brisket. The recipe (as printed) says to smoke first and sous-vide later. I did the sous-vide first and finished with smoking. Therefore, the comparison was between:

- Sous-vide 72 hours

- followed by 7 hours smoking

vs.

- 7 hours smoking

All of us preferred the conventionally cooked brisket, minus the sous-vide step. The Modernist version results in a MUCH more tender brisket, with all the connective tissue nicely gelatinized. You could eat the whole thing without picking bits off your teeth. However (as my friend said) the whole thing has a homogenous texture, which was reminiscent of canned meat. The conventional brisket tasted more like real meat - there was more to the tooth - a nice mixture of tender and chewy bits.

We had a discussion about how the context of the food affected its perception. I served it up with sauce and bread and a simple salad - so perhaps in this context, we would have preferred something a little less refined. If I had slice it up in a neat square, and served it on a nice mash, with some dainty garnish ... perhaps we would have preferred the Modernist brisket.

As it is - all 3 of us preferred the conventional brisket. Sorry MC.

[Nicholo P]

I cooked the Modernist beef brisket tonight, and compared it against a conventionally smoked brisket. However, I inverted the recipe for the Modernist brisket. The recipe (as printed) says to smoke first and sous-vide later. I did the sous-vide first and finished with smoking. Therefore, the comparison was between:

- Sous-vide 72 hours

- followed by 7 hours smoking

vs.

- 7 hours smoking

All of us preferred the conventionally cooked brisket, minus the sous-vide step. The Modernist version results in a MUCH more tender brisket, with all the connective tissue nicely gelatinized. You could eat the whole thing without picking bits off your teeth. However (as my friend said) the whole thing has a homogenous texture, which was reminiscent of canned meat. The conventional brisket tasted more like real meat - there was more to the tooth - a nice mixture of tender and chewy bits.

We had a discussion about how the context of the food affected its perception. I served it up with sauce and bread and a simple salad - so perhaps in this context, we would have preferred something a little less refined. If I had slice it up in a neat square, and served it on a nice mash, with some dainty garnish ... perhaps we would have preferred the Modernist brisket.

As it is - all 3 of us preferred the conventional brisket. Sorry MC.

I can completely relate to the results you gathered. General wisdom would say that the more tender, the better. Yet, when I marinated a chicken breast with one of the tenderizers we produced, people were a bit suspicious of the texture. Mind you, this tenderizer was originally designed for tougher beef cuts, so really, the overly tender chicken was just a result of curiosity. People were saying that it was too tender and felt unnatural.

[FoodMan]

I cooked the Modernist beef brisket tonight, and compared it against a conventionally smoked brisket. However, I inverted the recipe for the Modernist brisket. The recipe (as printed) says to smoke first and sous-vide later. I did the sous-vide first and finished with smoking. Therefore, the comparison was between:

- Sous-vide 72 hours

- followed by 7 hours smoking

vs.

- 7 hours smoking

All of us preferred the conventionally cooked brisket, minus the sous-vide step. The Modernist version results in a MUCH more tender brisket, with all the connective tissue nicely gelatinized. You could eat the whole thing without picking bits off your teeth. However (as my friend said) the whole thing has a homogenous texture, which was reminiscent of canned meat. The conventional brisket tasted more like real meat - there was more to the tooth - a nice mixture of tender and chewy bits.

We had a discussion about how the context of the food affected its perception. I served it up with sauce and bread and a simple salad - so perhaps in this context, we would have preferred something a little less refined. If I had slice it up in a neat square, and served it on a nice mash, with some dainty garnish ... perhaps we would have preferred the Modernist brisket.

As it is - all 3 of us preferred the conventional brisket. Sorry MC.

Keith-

I have not tried the smoked brisket from MC yet, so my comments here are based on the smoked ribs and pulled pork I made. Both were superb. Doing what you did, however, does not seem like a fair representation of the MC brisket. There is a specific reason the brisket is smoked first at a relatively cold temp and then cooked SV. When you inverted the process, did you by any chance smoke both briskets at the same time and the same temperature? or did you smoke the MC brisket at the recipe specified "cool" temperature and the conmventional brisket at a much higher temperature?

Was the MC brisket cooked and cooled, then smoked? Was it the same size as the recipe suggests?

I do agree with you that an extremely tender brisket (or ribs), the proverbial "fall off the bone" meat, is not necessarily a good thing. I just would like to hear some more details about what you did.

Thanks.

[rotuts]

this is in relation to 'overly uniform tender' beef

I did a Tri-Tip experiment, and initially did 8 hr, 10 hours. 131 as noted before very good but not tender enough. tritip has a lot of connective tissue in it

I did 24hrs 131F overly tender and lacking in beef taste.

\then did 10hr, 12hrs 14hrs and the 14 was just right. so perhaps the same with cut-specific times for brisket apply.

[DrewUK]

Hi All:

Cook the Perfect Hamburger Sous Vide (3-86)

I did most of this last night. I Sous Vide for 1 hour at 135F and then deep fried at 190C (as that is the hottest my deep fryer would go) for 1 minute. I did not have any liquid nitrogen so missed that out. But the burger was dry and more like medium, not what I was expecting.

So what was the biggest mistake?

1. 2 more degrees in the Sous Vide – cannot believe that

2. An hour in the Sous Vide versus ½ hour – could be but time is not supposed to matter

3. Not using liquid nitrogen – hmmm unsure

4. Not having the oil hot enough - 232C must be close to flash point

The outside crunch was great and 240g of burger seemed light and tastey (it was my own grind) which was a win. Just a bit dry. You can see a full post with pictures on my blog.

I have asked on the MC site what I did wrong and if I get a response I will post here.

On a positive side, cooking hamburgers the olde fashioned way in a grill pan I used to only turn once when the meat looked cooked on the side of the burger. But after reading the MC (best to turn often) I turn every 2 minutes x 4, and then cheese and cover for 2 more minutes and it was perfect.

Cheers

Drew

[FoodMan]

Hi All:

Cook the Perfect Hamburger Sous Vide (3-86)

I did most of this last night. I Sous Vide for 1 hour at 135F and then deep fried at 190C (as that is the hottest my deep fryer would go) for 1 minute. I did not have any liquid nitrogen so missed that out. But the burger was dry and more like medium, not what I was expecting.

So what was the biggest mistake?

1. 2 more degrees in the Sous Vide – cannot believe that

2. An hour in the Sous Vide versus ½ hour – could be but time is not supposed to matter

3. Not using liquid nitrogen – hmmm unsure

4. Not having the oil hot enough - 232C must be close to flash point

The outside crunch was great and 240g of burger seemed light and tastey (it was my own grind) which was a win. Just a bit dry. You can see a full post with pictures on my blog.

I have asked on the MC site what I did wrong and if I get a response I will post here.

On a positive side, cooking hamburgers the olde fashioned way in a grill pan I used to only turn once when the meat looked cooked on the side of the burger. But after reading the MC (best to turn often) I turn every 2 minutes x 4, and then cheese and cover for 2 more minutes and it was perfect.

Cheers

Drew

3 and 4 most likely.

[Keith_W]

Hi Foodman, this was what I did:

Customized MC brisket:

- rub applied (note this is another deviation from the recipe)

- sous-vide 65 hours (more or less) at 63C. My SV controller can not sit precisely at 63C, so it was more like 63C +/- 2C.

- removed from bag, patted dry, allowed to rest for 30 mins

- smoked for 6 hours at approx 65C (my Kamado went up to 75C at one point before I managed to turn the heat down).

- basting mop made from liquid contents of sous-vide + apple cider vinegar in a 1:1 (deviation from recipe)

Conventional brisket:

- out of the fridge 2 hours prior to cooking, rub applied

- smoked for 6 hours at the same time as the MC brisket

MC brisket #2:

- Following MC recipe exactly

- No rub or seasoning applied

- Smoked for 6 hours (same time as others above), no mop

- Currently in sous-vide machine, will open bag on Sunday.

... and yes, I am using the same size as what the recipe suggests.

[FoodMan]

Hi Foodman, this was what I did:

Customized MC brisket:

- rub applied (note this is another deviation from the recipe)

- sous-vide 65 hours (more or less) at 63C. My SV controller can not sit precisely at 63C, so it was more like 63C +/- 2C.

- removed from bag, patted dry, allowed to rest for 30 mins

- smoked for 6 hours at approx 65C (my Kamado went up to 75C at one point before I managed to turn the heat down).

- basting mop made from liquid contents of sous-vide + apple cider vinegar in a 1:1 (deviation from recipe)

Conventional brisket:

- out of the fridge 2 hours prior to cooking, rub applied

- smoked for 6 hours at the same time as the MC brisket

MC brisket #2:

- Following MC recipe exactly

- No rub or seasoning applied

- Smoked for 6 hours (same time as others above), no mop

- Currently in sous-vide machine, will open bag on Sunday.

... and yes, I am using the same size as what the recipe suggests.

Thanks for the clarification Keith. I am looking forward to Brisket 2. Let us know how that turns out. The seasoning/rub should not make much of a difference. The mop...maybe slightly I suppose.

What I am very surprised with is that you say the conventional brisket was smoked at the same time as the MC one! Was that at the same temp as well? ie 65C (~150F)?? Maybe that is not what you meant, but 6 hours at 150F would result in a very tough brisket. Usually I hot smoke a brisket around 250F or so and still it takes maybe 10 hours. If that time is really enough to tenderize a brisket from raw to cooked in 6 hours at 150F in your smoker, it will surely demolish the texture of an already cooked MC brisket. Am I missing something?

[Keith_W]

Foodman, perhaps your beef is tougher than mine I made a special order from my butcher - requested a dry aged brisket. Mine is from a yearling, grass fed and corn finished, and aged 36 days. I have never cooked brisket before. When I inspected this cut of meat, it did not seem as if it would turn out tough if I were to simply panfry it.

And yes, both the briskets were done at the same temp, at the same time. All 3 pieces of meat were sitting next to each other.