Cooking with "Modernist Cuisine" (Part 3)

[Chris Hennes]

I used a basic rub this time and was happy with the results (salt, pepper, chili powder). I don't think there's any reason not to add a rub if you normally like to have one, the recipe and technique are flexible of course. Also, misting won't help you in this case, I would bet. You're smoking at pretty low temp and high humidity to begin with: you aren't going to lower the wet bulb much with the misting. The surface of my pork had dried out some by the time it came out of the smoker, but I don't thinking the smoking time is long enough to result in any significant muscle fiber contraction: lowering the wet bulb temp that tiny additional bit from the misting isn't going to change anything, I'd bet.

[Borgstrom]

I've got two pork shoulders in the fridge now for cooking this weekend with by soon-to-be-picked-up BGE. I've been researching the best ways to do pulled pork, pouring over MC, this site, and several other BBQ forums - with countless "perfect" techniques. A perfect opportunity for an experiment!

Now the question is, which variable to explore?

Injection: yes/no; recipe

Brine: yes/no; recipe

Rub: yes/no; recipe

Mop: yes/no; recipe

Smoke: yes/no; wood; temp; time

Sous vide: yes/no; temp; time

What does everyone think would be the variable to test? I'd like to pick just one; I'll have other chances later in the summer to look at others.

I'm thinking of exploring Sous Vide: yes/no -- doing one shoulder just in the BGE and the other started in the BGE and finished SV per MC (5-67).

Any suggestions on the other items? I'm thinking MC's best bet injection/brine (Cola -- 3-172), but I haven't seen this used anywhere else here or at other sites so I'm a bit nervous. Has anyone tried this? I'll need to get it the meat in the brine tomorrow for it's 72H soak...

[LindaK]

Does it matter what kind of bones to use? Legbones or rib bones? I used to do beef stock with pressure cooker using

ox tail, but i think this is waste of this precious great meat. I ordered some beef tendon (for gelatin) and

will be using some lean ground beef. Does MC use alchohol in stock?

The parametric recipe for beef stock suggests a split calf's foot, but no reason you can't substitute. MC suggests alcohol for some stocks--red wine for beef.

[chefmd]

Cooked baby beets from farmers market sous vide. Eyeballed olive oil, salt, and water. I know this is redundant but: The Best Beets I Ever Cooked. Skin slipped off oh so easily with paper towel rub to reveal perfectly smooth surface. Texture had an almost imperceptible crunch and just the right degreee of softness. Served with goat cheese (mixed with sour cream and heavy cream to achieve spreadable texture) and hearts of palm (Trader Joe's) drizzled with basil pesto (not MC).

[Chris Hennes]

I'm thinking of exploring Sous Vide: yes/no -- doing one shoulder just in the BGE and the other started in the BGE and finished SV per MC (5-67).

I'd definitely suggest this experiment. I've made a lot of pork shoulders, and the textural difference you get with the LTLT technique is amazing. As for the other items, I'd suggest going with whatever your usual method is, so you have some kind of baseline.

[gdenby]

I've got two pork shoulders in the fridge now for cooking this weekend with by soon-to-be-picked-up BGE. I've been researching the best ways to do pulled pork, pouring over MC, this site, and several other BBQ forums - with countless "perfect" techniques. A perfect opportunity for an experiment!

Let me offer the results of 2 BGE/sous vide experiments I did with some "country rib" pork shoulder pieces. Perhaps this will give you some ideas.

Trial one was the pieces rubbed and in the water bath for 60 hrs at 140. The packages were about a half pound each (2 "ribs.") They came out still pinkish, but starting to fall apart. They went into the BGE using a standard butt set-up, raised grill, indirect, but with the dome a little hotter than usual, around 300. After 45 min, the pieces were up in the mid 190's.

They were tender, and did shred easily. The flavor was not all that intense, and there was lots of fat still to be removed. Not a good substitute for classic PP.

Second time I reversed the process, which seemed to be the preferred sequence in MC. Cooked the pieces in the BGE with a standard dome of 250, and went until the pieces were 140 or more. Into the water bath, this time for 72 hrs, at 140. There was a lot of fluid in the bags at the end of the sous-vide period, as there was with the first try. (used it to make mashed 'taters. pretty good, if salty)

Finished with a few minutes sear on the Egg.

The pulled texture was much closer to standard PP, as was the flavor.

This was better for the shoulder pieces than just doing them on the Egg. Usually, the smaller "ribs" need to be cooker hotter and faster to avoid drying out.

The main question I would have about doing a whole shoulder sous-vide is how long it might take? I've never done a piece of meat bigger than 3 pounds, and that was not a tough cut like shoulder. I wonder if it might take a lot more than 72 hours.

I wonder if a three part method would work well for larger pieces, something around 4 pounds? 2 hrs in the BGE, 48 hours in water bath, but surround the meat with oil in the bag so as to keep the water in, and then back onto the BGE for another 2 hours to re-build the bark.

So many things to try.

[Chris Hennes]

My shoulder was eight pounds: the center is going to come up to temp relatively quickly (a couple hours), then sit there for ~70 hours. I doubt for these very long time cooks you need to be concerned with the size of the piece of meat, unless it's truly gargantuan.

[ChrisZ]

Just an observation...

I tried cooking salmon sous vide at around 41C (107F). The taste and texture were wonderful, but even though I ate it immediately I couldn't get over the sense that I was eating something that had gone cold. I wanted the fish to feel hotter than it was, although heating up the fish would've defeated the purpose of cooking it at such a precisely low temperature!

Perhaps I've been conditioned by a lifetime of eating hot food - or at least food which is either very hot or not hot at all - but basically I found something in-between to be fairly disconcerting.

Overall though it was such a relief to eat salmon that wasn't overcooked (and so easy) that I'll do it more often, so I'll probably get used to it.

But just wondering what other people think when eating food which is barely luke warm?

[slkinsey]

Make sure you heat the plate.

[avaserfi]

The bacon turned out great. I don't have much to add to what others have said: This recipe is exceptional - porky and salty, a great balance. I think the general recipe will make a great base for experimentation too, next time I will probably try to make a maple variation.

[nickrey]

Nice photos. blackp and I tried the MC flavouring and the Ruhlman savory version and we both preferred the Ruhlman variant. Guess it's all down to individual tastes.

[avaserfi]

Nice photos. blackp and I tried the MC flavouring and the Ruhlman savory version and we both preferred the Ruhlman variant. Guess it's all down to individual tastes.

I'm not a fan of the Ruhlman recipe. The ratio for meat/salt he recommends varies so wildly it is hard to know what the recipe should look like. If anything, I would take the salt ratios and curing technique from the MC recipe and adjust seasonings to taste.

[blackp]

Nice photos. blackp and I tried the MC flavouring and the Ruhlman savory version and we both preferred the Ruhlman variant. Guess it's all down to individual tastes.

I'm not a fan of the Ruhlman recipe. The ratio for meat/salt he recommends varies so wildly it is hard to know what the recipe should look like. If anything, I would take the salt ratios and curing technique from the MC recipe and adjust seasonings to taste.

I'm interstate at the moment so don't have access to my notes, but the salt sugar ratio I used was not exactly Ruhlman's, but that suggested by loftyynotions from these pages. I added the MC recommended sodium erythorbate and used the same cure for both batches. The difference was only the spice/flavorings which I used in precise percentages for the MC batch and the best guess I could make for the Ruhlman recipe.

I agree with Nick. After several side by side tastings the Ruhlman flavorings win for me and those I've fed the bacon to. Not to say that the MC recipe makes bad bacon - far from it. It is an order of magnitude better than any store bought bacon I've ever had, I just like the other recipe better.

Cheers

Peter

[rotuts]

re: 107 salmon

what sort of seasonings did you use? how long did you SV it?

I look forward to trying this.

when I cook salmon 'conventionally' I use a heavy pan, skin side down to get some browning thenflip and finish in the oven.

the center is very rare

the seasonings I like is called Chicago Steak Seasonings from Penzy's:

http://www.penzeys.com/cgi-bin/penzeys/p-penzeyschicago.html

fantastic on Steak, Burgers and Salmon.

[Borgstrom]

Just an observation...

I tried cooking salmon sous vide at around 41C (107F). The taste and texture were wonderful, but even though I ate it immediately I couldn't get over the sense that I was eating something that had gone cold. I wanted the fish to feel hotter than it was, although heating up the fish would've defeated the purpose of cooking it at such a precisely low temperature!

I've got exactly the same reaction to 43C salmon. I love the flavor and texture, but always seem to expect something warmer. Searing briefly after the bath helps to get a warmer mouthfeel , but you invariable get some overcooked parts. As others have mentioned, a warm plate helps keep it from cooling further.

At the end of the day, I think you just have to accept that 41C or 43C salmon is not going to feel hot. It's a different preparation. If you want hot, then fry, grill, poach, etc.

[ChrisZ]

re: 107 salmon

what sort of seasonings did you use? how long did you SV it?

Honestly it was something I did so quickly I don't remember exactly. There's nothing I can say that isn't in the sous vide index (scroll down to the fish bit). I just bought a piece of salmon, salted it slightly, bagged it up and popped it in the bath. It was bought, cooked and eaten in less than an hour.

I was aware that cooking fish for too long can make it go mushy, so I used the tables in MC to calculate cooking time based on the thickness of the meat, which wasn't very long. I don't remember but I think it was about 20 mins or less. It was a smallish piece.

I did heat the plate first (something I always try to do when cooking) and when I found the fish to be 'cold' I checked its internal temperature with a digital thermometer - by which time it was 38C (100F). I crisped up the skin with a blowtorch but apart from that it was very simple.

[rotuts]

making 107 Salmon very very soon!

[Borgstrom]

I've got two pork shoulders in the fridge now for cooking this weekend with by soon-to-be-picked-up BGE. I've been researching the best ways to do pulled pork, pouring over MC, this site, and several other BBQ forums - with countless "perfect" techniques. A perfect opportunity for an experiment!

Well, the first part of the experiment is over; you can see a description of our MC BBQ on this post.

The second pork shoulder is still in the circulator; I'll probably take it out Tuesday night. All I can say at this point is that the smoke+SV version will have to be spectacular to prevail over the smoke-only one we had tonight! It was most excellent!

[Msk]

I just put some pastrami into brine last night and as noted, boy was it fun trying to fit that amount of liquid into a vac bag (But I did it!)

When looking at the Best bets for brining and the scaling for meat + Water = 100% which one do I use the normal brine or the pink brine? When I try and redo the calculations for the pastrami brine they dont match either.

Any help would be appreciated.

Mike

[LoftyNotions]

Alsatian Mustard update.

After aging for over a week I still thought the mustard needed more salt. I ended up adding 4 more grams which brought the salt content up to about 2 percent of the total of the mustard seeds plus vinegar. We felt that the acidity was just right. I might play with some different vinegars in the future, but I don't think I'll be buying much prepared mustard in the future.

One thing we noticed was that when we first removed the mustard from the vacuum bag it was extremely hot. Several hours later it was just right.

Larry

[KennethT]

Larry, did you incorporate the mustard soaking vinegar, or did you drain it?

[LoftyNotions]

Larry, did you incorporate the mustard soaking vinegar, or did you drain it?

I used the soaking vinegar. After blending in a Blendtec blender it was just the right consistency. I thought the acidity was ok after adding salt, but you could always use a water/vinegar blend if you wanted less acid.

Larry

[LoftyNotions]

I just put some pastrami into brine last night and as noted, boy was it fun trying to fit that amount of liquid into a vac bag (But I did it!)

When looking at the Best bets for brining and the scaling for meat + Water = 100% which one do I use the normal brine or the pink brine? When I try and redo the calculations for the pastrami brine they dont match either.

Any help would be appreciated.

Mike

Hi Mike,

The beef cheek pastrami recipe is about right as far as salt is concerned. Sugar is a bit high for my personal preference, but your tastes may vary. It looks like there is an error in the basic pink brine scaling 1 on page 3-168. It says to use 10% salt, but that would be extremely salty for an equilibrium brine.

In general, for cooked products, I find that a brine consisting of about 2 percent salt, 1 percent sugar and 0.25 percent Insta Cure is about right. These percentages are based on the total weight of meat plus water if brining, or total weight of meat if using a dry rub.

If you're following the pastrami recipe, the aromatics that go in the brine are about right. Do keep in mind that the spices used for the rub after brining make about 5 times what you need for 1 kg of meat.

I've found that brining in a small bucket is a lot easier than trying to vacuum seal meat plus brine.

HTH,

Larry

[slkinsey]

I'm a little curious as to why hangar steak is listed as both a "tender cut" and a "tough cut" in the two tables (I don't have them in front of me right now). Also, if I recall correctly, the "preferred temperature" on the "tender cut" chart is several degrees higher than the preferred temperature on the "tough cut" chart. Any explanation?

[Msk]

I just put some pastrami into brine last night and as noted, boy was it fun trying to fit that amount of liquid into a vac bag (But I did it!)

When looking at the Best bets for brining and the scaling for meat + Water = 100% which one do I use the normal brine or the pink brine? When I try and redo the calculations for the pastrami brine they dont match either.

Any help would be appreciated.

Mike

Hi Mike,

The beef cheek pastrami recipe is about right as far as salt is concerned. Sugar is a bit high for my personal preference, but your tastes may vary. It looks like there is an error in the basic pink brine scaling 1 on page 3-168. It says to use 10% salt, but that would be extremely salty for an equilibrium brine.

In general, for cooked products, I find that a brine consisting of about 2 percent salt, 1 percent sugar and 0.25 percent Insta Cure is about right. These percentages are based on the total weight of meat plus water if brining, or total weight of meat if using a dry rub.

If you're following the pastrami recipe, the aromatics that go in the brine are about right. Do keep in mind that the spices used for the rub after brining make about 5 times what you need for 1 kg of meat.

I've found that brining in a small bucket is a lot easier than trying to vacuum seal meat plus brine.

HTH,

Larry

Thanks Lofty, and generally do you have a % of weight you think aromtaics should be or is it just a matter of taste? I was just confused since the Standard brine had no pink salt, and the pink brine had no sugar. Thanks for the clarification. I guess the pastram is a combo of the 2.

So I basically could just recalc the salt/sugar/pink salt for the meat + water, then just add in the same amount of aromatics.

Mike