Please help with cannele recipe

[teonzo]

5 hours ago, ElsieD said:

Well, I think I finally nailed it.

 

There's only one way to know, I'll give you my postal address.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[ElsieD]

31 minutes ago, teonzo said:

 

There's only one way to know, I'll give you my postal address.

 

 

 

Teo

 

 

Okay.  I've just made up a new batch of batter.

[ElsieD]

Well, I am humbled.  Flushed with success, I made up another batch of batter, let it sit for a  couple of days and baked up my little batch of six.  The only thing that was different was I had made a mistake and set the initial 15 minute bake 25 degrees lower than what had worked so well the last batch.  They rose, but never fell.  As you can see, the bottoms are slanted and the insides had big holes in them.  We ate them anyway and they were good, but "wetter" on the inside, if you know what I mean.  Does anyone know what I might have done wrong?  Did I whisk the batter too long?  Did the difference in temperature make that much of a difference?  They were baked for a total of 75 minutes.  I still have batter left.  @teonzo  Don't send me your address just yet.

[rotuts]

@ElsieD 

 

well OK

 

sorting to continue to work on

 

would you have the ingredients 

 

Id love a few of those right now.

 

 

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Elsie, did you ever try the ersatz recipe and procedure i suggested upthread?

[teonzo]

13 hours ago, ElsieD said:

Did the difference in temperature make that much of a difference?

 

I would say this.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, ElsieD said:

@teonzo  Don't send me your address just yet.

 

Before giving my address, you need to visit a Star Trek forum and build a transporter.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Shelby]

@ElsieD  I don't know how I missed this since December.  I think even your latest ones look delicious.  I bought a cannele pan years ago and have never been brave enough to try it.

[RandomCrap]

Beginner's Luck.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I just baked my first attempt at canneles today and they came out great. Of the 6, 1 had a bit of light butt and 1 was peaked on top, with a bubble inside. All were eminently edible. Made me wonder what all the fuss was about. Of course, that simply means that tomorrow when I bake up the rest of the batter they'll all come out funky, no doubt.

 

I used the recipe from The Perfect Loaf (https://www.theperfectloaf.com/canele/). Variations: I use 2 eggs and 3 yolks, not 2.5 yolks. I added about twice the amount of rum called for. I didn't have any decent vanilla beans so I substituted extract. I have some of the nonstick aluminum molds from Sur La Table. I coated them with clarified butter, not using any wax. I probably didn't even need that. They came out very easily.

 

I let the batter rest from Tuesday evening until Saturday morning. I think this is part of why it worked, but the main reason is the use of a baking steel. I preheated the oven and steel for 1 hour at 475. The molds went on a baking sheet on the steel. Tomorrow, I'll put a sheet of foil on the steel and skip the sheet altogether. The cannele rose about 1cm over the top of the molds, with no mushrooming, then subsided back to the level of the molds. I think that skipping the sheet will make the bottoms crisp up just a bit faster. Total time was 15 minutes at 475 and about 53 minutes at 350.

 

My wife and I ate them all, and only afterwards did I kick myself - no photos. Does this mean it's like a big fish story? I never considered sharing the process with anyone. They looked a lot like these (following picture from the Perfect Loaf article mentioned above) except for the different finish sheen because I did not use beeswax.

 

I have 1 of the $30 copper molds on order, and some beeswax, so I can compare with the aluminum molds. I think that having that hot steel base is the key.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Smithy
Included photo attribution at new member's request (log)

[chanjying]

I've had great success with the cannele recipe in Toothache Magazine: https://toothachemagazine.com/collections/print-issues/products/toothache-issue-04-preorder. It's not free, unfortunately, but it was developed with a lot of testing and trial and error, which is always fun to read about. More labour intensive, but never had any failure with it in my home kitchen. I do use copper molds though along with a mixture of beeswax and clarified butter to line the moulds. No need for a hot steel base. 

[ElsieD]

I made up some more batter as per the Paula Wolfert recipe upthread and decided to follow her baking instructions which is to bake them at 400F for 1 3/4 to 2 hours.  They were baked in the BSOA on non-convect.  I had my oven thermometer in there to make sure the temperature was correct.  These were a disaster.  I pulled them after an hour and 15 minutes and they were already burnt on the top and the inside was not baked.  Not even close.  Also, they stuck horribly to my molds.

 

As to my molds, the last time I used them I had some trouble with sticking.  I washed them with soap and water and re-seasoned them.  They were put in the fridge and once cold, I throughly oiled them and put them back in the fridge.  I stirred the batter, removed the molds from the fridge, filled them and put them in the oven.

 

What is the problem with the molds?  Why do they stick?  Why did they burn and not bake through?  It seems to me the temperature is too high but other recipes have called for that temperature but them instructs you to turn the oven down.  How do I get the batter/baked bits off the molds?

 

Lastly, I still have some batter so can bake some more.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Smithy
Removed non-links at poster's request (log)

[rotuts]

@ElsieD 

 

""   400F for 1 3/4 to 2 hours ""

 

that has to be a typo in the Rx.   

 

as you now know first hand

[kayb]

I've never dealt with baking anything in copper before, but it would seem to me the best way to clean them would be just to fill them with water and let them soak.

 

Like Rotuts, I can't fathom baking anything that size for an hour and 3/4 at 400F.

Edited May 27, 2020 by kayb (log)

[RandomCrap]

I think you need a temperature both higher and lower. To explain: start at 475 for 15 minutes, then lower to 350 and finish. Depending upon your oven and the number you bake at once, you might even need to go higher. The initial high heat causes the batter to rise. It usually goes over the top of the cups. The thing is, if it stays risen above the cup long enough to harden, that broader 'mushroom' head prevents it from settling back to the bottom of the cup. This prevents the bottom from baking properly.

 

I use a baking steel to really supply heat to the bottom of the molds. If I have 6 or fewer in the oven, 475 works, but any more than that and I use 500. Lately, I think that 500 is the preferred way to go. The batter rises straight up without mushrooming, and when I drop the temperature it lowers back into the mold. Right about that point it when the top crust gets stiff enough to keep it there. 

 

As the cannele bakes and loses moisture, it shrinks slightly. If you have a good non-stick coating, the shrinking size lets it slide down the mold, keeping the bottom in contact with the hot metal. I think that avoiding the mushroom head is key to baking the bottoms correctly.

 

Hope this helps. The nice thing about these, even when they look bad they taste good.

 

I have 6 of the nonstick aluminum molds and a single copper mold. The copper one is slightly larger and bakes differently. The aluminum molds take 15 minutes on high heat, then about 30-35 on the lower heat. The copper needs a good 50-60 minutes on the lower heat to bake completely.

Edited June 13, 2020 by RandomCrap
Added a little (log)

[ElsieD]

44 minutes ago, RandomCrap said:

I think you need a temperature both higher and lower. To explain: start at 475 for 15 minutes, then lower to 350 and finish. Depending upon your oven and the number you bake at once, you might even need to go higher. The initial high heat causes the batter to rise. It usually goes over the top of the cups. The thing is, if it stays risen above the cup long enough to harden, that broader 'mushroom' head prevents it from settling back to the bottom of the cup. This prevents the bottom from baking properly.

 

I use a baking steel to really supply heat to the bottom of the molds. If I have 6 or fewer in the oven, 475 works, but any more than that and I use 500. Lately, I think that 500 is the preferred way to go. The batter rises straight up without mushrooming, and when I drop the temperature it lowers back into the mold. Right about that point it when the top crust gets stiff enough to keep it there. 

 

As the cannele bakes and loses moisture, it shrinks slightly. If you have a good non-stick coating, the shrinking size lets it slide down the mold, keeping the bottom in contact with the hot metal. I think that avoiding the mushroom head is key to baking the bottoms correctly.

 

Hope this helps. The nice thing about these, even when they look bad they taste good.

 

I have 6 of the nonstick aluminum molds and a single copper mold. The copper one is slightly larger and bakes differently. The aluminum molds take 15 minutes on high heat, then about 30-35 on the lower heat. The copper needs a good 50-60 minutes on the lower heat to bake completely.

 

 

@RandomCrapThank you so much for chiming in.  I plan on making more batter soon and will try it again.  How full do you fill your molds?  I leave about 1/4" from the top.  

 

Edited to add:  I don't have a baking steel, would a pizza stone work?

Edited June 13, 2020 by ElsieD (log)

[RandomCrap]

A pizza stone will help, but not as much as a steel. It's all about stored heat. Traditional, older ovens have heated surfaces upon which the goods are baked. Typical home ovens put things on a rack. That is a different way to heat - hot air around the item. A stone absorbs heat and radiates it. A steel does the same, but can hold and radiate more. Both help. I would say that you should definitely use your stone. Just remember that it stores heat. That means, you don't start baking when your oven comes up to temperature. You let it keep running, heating your stone. When I use the steel, I preheat the oven for 45 minutes minimum, usually an hour. And yes, I wish the kitchen was cooler. <g> 

 

As far as the molds, I go a little more than 1/4" from the top. Play with the value - a hotter oven means you can fill it higher. This is because a hotter oven fixes the top more quickly, preventing the mushroom effect. Although the batter may rise above the mold edges, you want to avoid it expanding outwards, as that wide top prevents it from sliding down, and correctly browning the bottom.

 

All this is easily said, but I'll freely admit that baking these little puppies is a bit of an art. I'm having fun, and even less-than-perfect results are pretty darn tasty!

[mjw]

I recently had beginners luck... Copper molds from Bordeaux (a little over $10 each plus shipping for a dozen on etsy), clarified butter and beeswax, didn't freeze the molds (seemed counterintuitive if I want to get them as hot as possible as fast as possible). I baked them on an aluminum sheet pan on a pizza stone 500F for 10 min then 425F for 40, rotating regularly. They were perfect.

 

Then a week later I followed what I thought was the identical process, but nope... Almost every one had a large white portion on top (but still delicious). I'm thinking I must not have gotten the molds or the butter-wax mixture quite as hot before coating the molds the second time I made them, so maybe there was a spot where it was too thick when I poured it in to coat them. If anybody has other thoughts from my pictures, let me know.

 

I mixed up another batch of batter and prepped my molds tonight for another try on Friday. I tried to make sure everything was hotter when I coated them this time. To the naked eye they look good (thin and uniform), but we will see...

 

I uploaded pictures of both batches. 

 

Mike

[RandomCrap]

*Usually* the pale bottoms are caused by excessive mushrooming of the top - when the canele expands upwards, if it also expands outwards, the wider top no longer allows the pastry to slip downwards in the cup when the temperature is reduced. That leaves a gap at the bottom. An insufficiency of lubrication (butter/ beeswax) can also prevent the slipping and thus leave it hanging. In your case, I don't see evidence of mushrooming. So, either you have insufficient lubrication, or too much. Too much pools in the bottom, and so you don't get the browning.

 

I think the main reason most people freeze the molds is to lock the lube in place. You have a tension going on - the cold mold is heating, the batter is heating and expanding, the hot air on the top of the batter is starting to harden it. It's a race - ideally, the top hardens such that the pastry cannot expand outwards, but still expands up, and the lubrication on the sides allows it to expand upwards. Then the heat fixes the shape, and when you reduce the oven temperature the pastry contracts slightly. The sides of the mold are sloped, so the pastry can drop lower in the mold as it shrinks. Again, you want enough lubrication to allow this, so that the bottom of the pastry gets in contact with the bottom of the mold.

 

The one thing you can control once they are in the oven is the time when you reduce the temperature. Do it too early, and they collapse because they aren't rigid enough. Too late, and the pastry in stuck where it is. If you avoid mushrooming the heads, you have some leeway as to when you drop the temperature.

 

Happy baking.

 

PS Those first ones indeed look perfect. And I bet you ate the second batch with no problems either!

Edited August 14, 2020 by RandomCrap
Admiring the results (log)

[ElsieD]

@RandomCrap  and anyone else who wants to chime in - at what temperature do you bake your canneles?  I had been working on them but I have given up.  When I look at various recipes the timing and oven temperatures vary a lot.  If I can get an answer to this, I may give it another try.  I have the copper molds.  Also, please indicate if you are using convection mode or not.

[mjw]

1 hour ago, RandomCrap said:

*Usually* the pale bottoms are caused by excessive mushrooming of the top - when the canele expands upwards, if it also expands outwards, the wider top no longer allows the pastry to slip downwards in the cup when the temperature is reduced. That leaves a gap at the bottom. An insufficiency of lubrication (butter/ beeswax) can also prevent the slipping and thus leave it hanging. In your case, I don't see evidence of mushrooming. So, either you have insufficient lubrication, or too much. Too much pools in the bottom, and so you don't get the browning.

 

You're right - I didn't have any problem mushrooming - I filled each mold w/ 70g batter, and they rose just up to the top, with the center bulging slightly upwards, but the edges not going past the mold, so that's not the problem.

 

I had assumed I had too much lubrication, hadn't considered that I might have too little.  They did just slip right out of the molds when I flipped them upside down (didn't even really have to tap them), which I would think wouldn't be the case if I didn't have enough coating.

 

1 hour ago, RandomCrap said:

I think the main reason most people freeze the molds is to lock the lube in place. You have a tension going on - the cold mold is heating, the batter is heating and expanding, the hot air on the top of the batter is starting to harden it. It's a race - ideally, the top hardens such that the pastry cannot expand outwards, but still expands up, and the lubrication on the sides allows it to expand upwards. Then the heat fixes the shape, and when you reduce the oven temperature the pastry contracts slightly. The sides of the mold are sloped, so the pastry can drop lower in the mold as it shrinks. Again, you want enough lubrication to allow this, so that the bottom of the pastry gets in contact with the bottom of the mold.

 

This is interesting, and the first explanation I've been able to find.  Thanks!  I might experiment with it at some point in the future, but for now I'm not going to add that variable into my experiments since the height of mine seems fine, and I'm not having mushrooming problems.  Maybe that's also less necessary since I'm preheating my baking stone to 500 about an hour before baking, so that provides enough shock without the added chilling?

 

1 hour ago, RandomCrap said:

 

The one thing you can control once they are in the oven is the time when you reduce the temperature. Do it too early, and they collapse because they aren't rigid enough. Too late, and the pastry in stuck where it is. If you avoid mushrooming the heads, you have some leeway as to when you drop the temperature.

 

OK, this is good to know, too.  Maybe I'll drop the temp a minute or so earlier.  I'm only doing 10 min at 500, rotating after 5, before dropping the temp.  Actual temp will drop more slowly since I'm using a stone, though.

 

1 hour ago, RandomCrap said:

 

Happy baking.

 

PS Those first ones indeed look perfect. And I bet you ate the second batch with no problems either!

 

 

Thanks!  Yes, we had no problem eating the second batch, either :-)

 

I've got enough batter for 12 ready to bake today.  If anything, the wax-butter coating should be a little thinner than last time since I tried to apply it hotter and didn't let it dwell at all in the mold -- filled to the rim and them dumped it out immediately.  Here's a pic of the coated mold in case you can see anything from a picture...  I'm going to bake 4 this afternoon to see how they turn out.  If they still have white tops, I'll probably re-coat the next 4 and try to get the coating to be a little thicker.

 

Thanks,

Mike

[mjw]

2 hours ago, ElsieD said:

@RandomCrap  and anyone else who wants to chime in - at what temperature do you bake your canneles?  I had been working on them but I have given up.  When I look at various recipes the timing and oven temperatures vary a lot.  If I can get an answer to this, I may give it another try.  I have the copper molds.  Also, please indicate if you are using convection mode or not.

 

I bake for 10 min at 500F on a baking stone (rotating after 5 min), then 40-45 min at 425F (rotating every 10 min).  btw I'm using this recipe, which I haven't seen mentioned on this thread yet.  It takes a similar approach to Paula's in that the butter is blended with the sugar and flour before adding the hot milk and eggs.

 

Mike

[ElsieD]

1 hour ago, mjw said:

 

I bake for 10 min at 500F on a baking stone (rotating after 5 min), then 40-45 min at 425F (rotating every 10 min).  btw I'm using this recipe, which I haven't seen mentioned on this thread yet.  It takes a similar approach to Paula's in that the butter is blended with the sugar and flour before adding the hot milk and eggs.

 

Mike

 

Thank you for responding.  Are your canneles placed on a sheet pan and then put on the stone to bake or directly on the stone?  Also, are you baking on convection mode or non-convection?

[mjw]

24 minutes ago, ElsieD said:

 

Thank you for responding.  Are your canneles placed on a sheet pan and then put on the stone to bake or directly on the stone?  Also, are you baking on convection mode or non-convection?

 

Non-convection.  I place the copper molds on a standard aluminum sheet pan (no fancy ridges or nonstick coating or anything), with a piece of foil in it to make cleanup easier.  Then the sheet pan goes on the stone.

 

Mike

[mjw]

Nope, seems the white spots are even worse this time when I heated the molds and wax mixture even hotter before coating.  As @RandomCrap suggested, I'll try the next batch with a thicker layer.

 

This series of pictures is as-filled, after 10 min at 500F, then after 20 min at 425F, then after another 20 min at 425F.  The 2 in the front row of the final picture were molds that I prepped later, so they sat a few extra min after I prewarmed them in the oven before I poured the wax mixture in, so they would have been a little cooler.

 

Mike

 

[mjw]

Success! This time I didn't prewarm the molds, just coated them at room temp (80ish today), let the wax mixture sit for about 20 sec before dumping it out. Then I chilled in the freezer for about 10 min to set the wax, but brought back to room temp before filling. 

 

Thanks again @RandomCrap for pointing me in the right direction!

 

Can't wait for my bedtime snack tonight.

 

Mike

Edited August 15, 2020 by mjw
Added pic (log)

[MokaPot]

Happy for you, @mjw. I've never had a cannele before. What's the texture like? Looks like a custard, almost.