Can you appreciate food if you don't cook?

[Shalmanese]

There's always seemed to be a dichotomy to me between the people who cook well at home and only occasionaly go to great restaurants and those who regularly go to great restaurants but never touch the stove. Is it truly possible to admire and appreciate good food to the fullest extent if your unfamiliar with the basic principles of cooking?

On one hand, nobody expects a music lover to know how to play an instrument or a art critic to know how to paint, it's perfectly normal in those fields to be able to judge the merit of a work without knowing the technical details. On the other hand, I simply can't imagine how one could fall in love with food without a grounding in it's making.

I think, it's not neccesary for one to be a good cook or even a regular cook, but there are certain things which one needs experience with to in order to really understand food. What is stewing, braising, grilling, sauteing. What are the different cuts of meat and how do they behave when you cook them. How does salt, pepper, lemon juice, chilli, sugar and spice alter foods? How does an egg turn into scrambled eggs, custard, hollandaise, mayonnaise, omlettes. How do you make a good stock. How is bread made.

Without this... sense... of what food is and how it is transformed, it seems to me that any understanding about taste is deeply impoverished. However, an argument could be made that only people who don't know how to cook can really appreciate food. After all, if the purpose of good food is to delight the senses, then shouldn't the senses reign supreme? With knowledge of food, there is the risk of technical detail obscuring the actual experience of eating. We become enamoured more with those who can manipulate and transform food rather than what ends up on the plate. In my mind, this also contains some merit. I think that the reason why many chefs seem disproportionately enamoured with offal is not because it tastes fantastic, but because it's so difficult to work with that getting it to taste good is a major accomplishment. It may the mark of skill in a chef who can cook offal well, but does that neccesarily mean it should be appreciated?

In the end, I'm conflicted. I think that the many "foodies" who flit from restaurant to restaurant in the search of the next hedonistic experience are ultimately missing something deep and fudamental about eating that can only be experienced by cooking it. But at the same time, the measure of if food is good should ultimately fall down to whether it looks, smells and tastes good and nothing should distract from that.

[ladyyoung98]

well here is my thought on it...when we are children we are totally unfamiliar with the basic principles of cooking..and yet even as children we could admire and appreciate food to its fullest extent..as least enough to know what we did or did not like..if a food looked disgusting or gross to us as kids..no way did we want to try it no matter how much we may have been told how good it tasted..not that we were experts as kids..but we di know what we liked and didnt like... so i have to say ...no i dont feel that being familiar with the basics principles of cooking prevents anyone from admriign and appreciating food to the fullest extent.... we each know wht our palletes like and dont like..not to mention the fact that each one of us..no matter what we may say..also eat with our eyes as much as we use our taste..one does not need an education on the basic principles of cooking for that

Edited September 26, 2005 by ladyyoung98 (log)

[Genevieve M.]

In food appreciation like music appreciation, we all know what we like. I dont have a problem with the non cooking restaurant enthusiasts and their food appreciation, they keep us in business. Its the non cooking restaurant enthusiast critics that bug me! Lack of knowledge and critism are not a good combo but all to often go hand in hand and can in some cases snowball out of control.

Edited September 26, 2005 by Genevieve M. (log)

[Jason Perlow]

I think, it's not neccesary for one to be a good cook or even a regular cook, but there are certain things which one needs experience with to in order to really understand food. What is stewing, braising, grilling, sauteing. What are the different cuts of meat and how do they behave when you cook them. How does salt, pepper, lemon juice, chilli, sugar and spice alter foods? How does an egg turn into scrambled eggs, custard, hollandaise, mayonnaise, omlettes. How do you make a good stock. How is bread made.

Just like you cannot fully understand love and human relationships without experiencing meaningful sex, I beleive you cannot fully appreciate food without having done some cooking. Not being able to cook is a shallow existence in my opinion -- and just like lacking experience sexually or being detached from sex makes one unfulfilled, not cooking occasionaly is unfulfilling as a foodie as well.

[Fat Guy]

"Is it truly possible to admire and appreciate good food to the fullest extent if your unfamiliar with the basic principles of cooking?"

Is it necessary to cook in order to be familiar with the basic principles of cooking?

Does cooking necessarily familiarize one with the basic principles of cooking?

What happens at restaurants that don't employ any of the basic principles of cooking: El Bulli, Fat Duck, Alinea . . . ?

[M.X.Hassett]

"Is it truly possible to admire and appreciate good food to the fullest extent if your unfamiliar with the basic principles of cooking?"

Is it necessary to cook in order to be familiar with the basic principles of cooking?

Does cooking necessarily familiarize one with the basic principles of cooking?

What happens at restaurants that don't employ any of the basic principles of cooking: El Bulli, Fat Duck, Alinea . . . ?

←

1) I do not think that is necessary to cook to be familiar with basic(how are we defining basic: Saute, Braise, roast,?) I am sure there are food historians out there who are familiar with above and beyond basic methods who have never cooked anything using the methods.

2) That is very subjective, by cooking that could mean slow braising a pot a feu(spl) or cooking ala sandra lee. There is also a % of people who can cook amazing meals from scratch, who do not know a recipe and could not define methods of cooking.(I.E. my grandmother)

3) If you are familiar with the methods they use one might enjoy the meal more just by knowing "Oh boy they used a pacojet for this dirt"

Quotee: "On one hand, nobody expects a music lover to know how to play an instrument or a art critic to know how to paint, it's perfectly normal in those fields to be able to judge the merit of a work without knowing the technical details. On the other hand, I simply can't imagine how one could fall in love with food without a grounding in it's making."

I would argue that one could appreciate an artistic(painting, sculpture, music, etc...) piece to a greater(different) degree by knowing something about the basic technical overview.

I do not believe it to be a must to enjoy good cuisine to understand method, but I do think it could elevate the meal.

Edit: spelling etc... It is getting pretty late

Edited September 26, 2005 by M.X.Hassett (log)

[Pan]

I think what's most important in cultivating an appreciation of music and the visual arts which goes beyond "that just sounds/looks good to me" is a trained ear and a trained eye. Similarly, a trained palate is a good thing. Does one have to cook to train one's palate? I doubt it. Could it help? Sure. Same thing in regard to the fine arts.

[M.X.Hassett]

I think what's most important in cultivating an appreciation of music and the visual arts which goes beyond "that just sounds/looks good to me" is a trained ear and a trained eye. Similarly, a trained palate is a good thing. Does one have to cook to train one's palate? I doubt it. Could it help? Sure. Same thing in regard to the fine arts.

←

I agree it just took me a few more words.

Edit: So how well trained could Bruni's pallete truly be?

Edited for clarity.

Edited September 26, 2005 by M.X.Hassett (log)

[Adam Balic]

I have read that Alan Davidson could boil and egg and that it pretty much it. It think that if such a wonderful great food scholar didn't cook, then no you don't actually need to cook to appreciate food. And not cooking does not exclude an understanding of the basic principles of cooking.

I imagine at the top level of cooking there are very few (if any) home cooks that could achieve the same level of food. It may make you as in individual appreciate the food of a top chef more, but there are many ways of doing this and by comparison with you own efforts is only one of these.

Equally I guess you could say if you don't talk to producers or suppliers can you appreciate the food or drink that consume? I know that I have lost a lot of interest in wine, now that I have moved to Scotland and unable to talk to producers. But obviously there are many people in Scotland with a deep interest in wine (mainly Buckfast, sure )

Most activities that are worth while are diverse enough that there are many ways of appoaching them.

[prasantrin]

When my mother first got married, at 29 years of age, she couldn't cook. That may seem hard to believe, but a life of household servants, boarding schools, and then boarding with nuns prevented her from ever having to learn. However, she loved food. And not just any food...she loved good food. And it wasn't even just that she loved good food, she really appreciated it. She still savours every bite of whatever it is she's eating (if it's good). She appreciates the work that goes into the making of the food, and sometimes tries to dissect it (the ingredients, etc.). She still reacts with awe at a new flavour, or a new technique a chef has used to make a dish. Could she replicate it? Not on your life. Though now, as an almost-70 year old, she is much more capable of trying to do so.

If your palate is trained well, and if you have been exposed to, and educated in, the joys of food, you don't need to know how to cook in order to appreciate the flavours of good food, or the skill in making it.

[Apicio]

Perhaps a deep appreciation of food is closer to the evaluation and judgment of fragrances. After all, food and fragrance have the olfactory nerves commonly operating in both of them. A perfume connoiseur can tell you what images and atmosphere a partifcular scent evokes and he can even identify the individual notes it employs to do this evocation with. And yet he does not have the faintest idea how it was composed. This knowledge resides in the very small and closed clique of “noses.”

That is the equivalent of us all food enthusiasts savoring a dish that we will never have the priviledge of knowing how it was cooked.

Edited September 26, 2005 by Apicio (log)

[Toliver]

Anyone else remember eG'er cabrales? Ate out all the time. Infamously never cooked.

"If Suzanne F tried to teach Cabrales cooking, ?????"

I searched for it but couldn't find the thread where cabrales tried to roast a chicken. Classic.

And to answer the original question:

"Is it truly possible to admire and appreciate good food to the fullest extent if your unfamiliar with the basic principles of cooking?"

The short answer is yes, of course.

[ianeccleston]

There's always seemed to be a dichotomy to me between the people who cook well at home and only occasionaly go to great restaurants and those who regularly go to great restaurants but never touch the stove. Is it truly possible to admire and appreciate good food to the fullest extent if your unfamiliar with the basic principles of cooking?

←

I don't think there's a clear line here. (which is unfortunate, since I find it irritating that some people shell out lots of money to visit the best restaurants frequently, and still don't know what they are talking about or can't appreciate it. Pretentious, is the word for it most likely. And snobby, is probably the word to describe ME talking about them).

As a musician, I've been impressed by the depth of knowledge and appreciation some non-musicians have. It can be truly amazing - they will posses a much better musicianship than some musicians. Similarly, I've met poor instrumentalists who have a better sense of musicianship than someone who is technically more proficient. This is probably similar in comparing a poor line cook to a decent home cook. Or a poor home cook to a 'decent' restaurant goer.

My point is, there's a sliding scale that could apply, not a clear yeah-or-nay line between the two. There will be amazingly knowledgable, passionate non-cooks, that probably know more than I do, and dull 20-nights-a-week restaurant diners who order chicken breasts every time (or whatever).

However, without the grounding of actually cooking, I think some things tend to slip through the cracks - it's a different perspective to participate than just to 'watch'. Just going through Julia Child's "How to Cook" or Marcella Hazan's cookbooks trying to get dinner on the table for a couple of years gives you a breadth of knowledge of technique and history that would be hard to come by otherwise. Not that I know everything there is to know because of that and other cooking I've done - there are techniques that a restaurant chef uses that I'd have no clue about, and perhaps have less appreciation of than a restaurant cook would (and so on and so on up until you get up to Eric Ripert, or Charlie Trotter, etc.).

[Daniel Rogov]

Simply stated, from the days of ancient Rome to the late 20th century, many gourmets including many so respected by chefs that now world-famous dishes were named after them, never did anything more than boil water. Among the examples - Lucullus, various members of the Borgia and de Medici families, A. J. Liebling, Rossini, Fanny de Beauharnais, etc, etc, etc.....

Agreed that if one is going to write about food or to discuss it with any sophistication the knowledge of the "magical transformation between an egg and a souffle" is critical but for even the most magnificent sense of enjoyment of food, no knowledge of the kitchen whatever is required! What is required is a good and discriminating palate and a good deal of comparative experience.

For sure as in all art-forms, more than the naive knowledge of "what I like" but no need for knowing the "hows". Only the means of measuring the results.

Perhaps a related question - can an unintelligent person truly appreciate food or any other art form. Or is that too dangerous a question?

[M.X.Hassett]

Dangerous indeed.

[chefboy24]

What happens at restaurants that don't employ any of the basic principles of cooking: El Bulli, Fat Duck, Alinea . . . ?

←

Are you kidding? All of these restaurants employ basic cooking principles. They just use them and think out of the box a bit more.

Fat Duck A La Carte Menu

CAULIFLOWER RISOTTO

Carpaccio of cauliflower, chocolate jelly

RADISH RAVIOLI OF OYSTER

Goats cheese and truffle,

rissole of fromage de tête

BALLOTINE OF FOIE GRAS

Jelly of mead and Sichuan peppercorn

LASAGNE OF LANGOUSTINE

Pig's trotter and truffle

(Eight pounds fifty supplement)

BEST END OF LAMB

Gratin of potato and confit lamb shoulder, jellied lamb consommé

SADDLE OF VENISON

Celeriac, marron glace, sauce poivrade

POT ROAST BEST END OF PORK

Gratin of truffled macaroni

(Ten pounds supplement per person)

SOLE VERONIQUE

Pont-Neuf potatoes

POACHED SEABASS

Velouté of Borlotti beans with rosemary and vanilla, "Manni" olive oil

(Truffle option, eight pounds fifty supplement)

DÉLICE OF CHOCOLATE

Chocolate sorbet, cumin caramel

TART TATIN

Vanilla ice cream

CHOCOLATE FONDANT

Cardamom, dried apricot yoghurt and harissa ice cream

SMOKED BACON AND EGG ICE CREAM

Pain perdu, tea jelly

MANGO AND DOUGLAS FIR PUREE

Bavarois of lychee and mango, blackcurrant sorbet, blackcurrant and green peppercorn jelly

I see roasting, risotto cookery, pasta (ravioli) making and cookery, ballotines, the confit (preserving) process, potato and macaroni gratin, a sauce poivrade (espangole/demi glace variation), a veloute, pont neuf potatoes, poaching, sorbet & ice cream production, etc etc.

these are all pretty basic types of cookery you'd find in escoffier's books or any classic french repetoire.

Edited September 26, 2005 by chefboy24 (log)

[chefboy24]

Perhaps a related question - can an unintelligent person truly appreciate food or any other art form.  Or is that too dangerous a question?

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Absolutely. Great line cooks (or even great chefs) aren't academically the cream of the crop. *Most* of them can't write for shit, avoid calculus & science like the plague, were never A students, never ivy league bound. There are a few who are both brilliant and talented but being a great cook and being brilliant is a rare coincidence.

Individuality, creativity, expression, passion, and mastery of cooking techniques are completely unrelated to "intelligence." Or maybe having all of these things is another kind of "intelligence."

My post lays on the assumption that great line cooks and great chefs appreciate their food. I think thats a pretty safe assumption, though.

[Genny]

I think the real question here is not "Can they appreciate?" but "What is the difference in appreciation between cooks and non-cooks."

In reading this discussion, I am reminded of watching movies with my sister-in-law. She has been an actress for many years and watching movies with her is a learning experience. Rather than just enjoying the "plot" or "story line" I am enlightened with details such as "character arc" and classic "cinematography technique" that leads the subconscious forward. I certainly appreciate a good movie, but on a much different level than someone familiar with the intricate details of the effort and finesse that is needed to do the job well.

When enjoying a great meal out with my father, he says "Oh wow, this is incredible. The (whatever) is so tender, flavorful, etc." I look at a dish and enjoy the plating, the colors, the aroma, the cooking method, and try to discern all the details and effort that go into making the dish. We both swoon over the experience of the meal, but in different ways due to what knowledge each of us brings to the table.

[Daniel Rogov]

Chefboy, Hi....

I was unclear. I was referring to diners and not to chefs when asking about intelligence. We are in agreement, some chefs are brilliant. Others are little more than idiots-savant.

[godito]

Here´s what I think:

Food, and I mean good food, like any other form of art, touches you and estimulates every sensorial nerve on your body. Isn't that what organoleptic relates to? You don't need to paint to appreciate the works of Dali, however, only a painter can understand paintings, becuase (s)he knows about the hunger, the passion, and the subtle details.

The same happens with food. You don't need to cook to find something you like and to really enjoy eating. And you can read to abtain further education on the subjects of cooking. But, can you understand how hard it is to braise lamb in a way that makes it taste like heaven, if you've never tried it? Is it enough that to you "it tastes good"? Is it enough that you know that they've probably been working for two days on that braise?

You can appreciate food if you don't cook. Sure, but not in as many levels as somebody who does it. Cooks have a more... intellectual understanding. And it goes deepen in professional kitchens. For instance, anybody, with a standard recipe and a few pointers can make a nice fluffy soufflee at home. However, pulling it off at a restaurant, during dinner rush, with just two ovens toserve 120 people. That's magic. You might understand how cool that is, but only after you've tried it (and failed, or succeeded only because of the help you got) you can admire the discipline of a kitchen staff.

It's not only about "how trained is your palatte". It's also about "how much do you understand about what's going on behind the closed doors"

[Bond Girl]

You don't have to know how to cook to enjoy good food, just as you don't need to be a concert pianist to appreciate a Brahms piano concerto. People who don't cook may not enjoy food the same way as a world class chef, but their enjoyment is just as valid.

[adegiulio]

I think the answer goes something like this...

If you CAN cook, than of course you can appreciate fine food whereas a non-cook can't. How can you expect someone who doesn't know what goes into making fine food to understand how good it is?

If you CAN'T cook, then obviously you can still appreciate fine food the same as someone who does cook.One need not be an artist to love art.

I appreciate food, jazz, baseball, and grasping objects between my finger and thumb. Unfortunately, I can't appreciate my car (never designed or built one), the Empire State Building (not an architect), or the Statue of Liberty (never dated a tall chick).

[markovitch]

to each their own, i say.

i haven't painted since finger paint, but i still like Titian...

[Behemoth]

Anyone else remember eG'er cabrales?  Ate out all the time. Infamously never cooked.

"If Suzanne F tried to teach Cabrales cooking, ?????"

I searched for it but couldn't find the thread where cabrales tried to roast a chicken.  Classic.

←

That thread was one of the funniest things I have ever read, anywhere.

Definitely argues the case that non-cooks can appreciate good food.

edit: just realized you'd already linked it. The chicken roasting happens further on in the same thread, check towards the last few pages.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Behemoth (log)

[CharityCase]

Whether a home chef, a cordon bleu chef or a non-chef, everyone can taste when there's too much caraway in the succotash, and it doesn't particularly matter that one says "I use a teaspoon", another says "Escoffier derides the use of caraway PERIOD" and the last says "this is gross!"

I truly don't believe a knowledge of cooking is a requirement, it may just shed a different light on what makes a certain meal so great.

I'm reminded of a dinner at the Beaver Club in Montreal with a large group of friends. Some of us are very into food, others aren't. So during various courses you'd hear half the table dissecting their plate, wondering what THAT flavour is. The other half was saying "This is awesome!" or just a simple "wow!" and yet we all drew similiar positive experiences from the meal..jsut retold in different ways.

Many of us eGulleteers might agree that there's such a thing as knowing TOO much about food, finding your standards shrinking and perhaps like any one who obsesses over their hobby find it harder and harder to enjoy some of the simpler aspects of cooking and food because we're so heavily engaged in the complexities.