Food Pronunciation Guide for the Dim-witted

[H. du Bois]

Kar-mel vs. kar-a-mel is a regional pronunciation, one of the tags that linguists can use to peg where you grew up. Kar-mel (complete with flat A) is a northern thing, and the mellifluous kar-a-mel is from the south. (I grew up with kar-mel, but have adopted the latter, because it's pretty).

[Pan]

H., it's gotta be more than a north-south thing. "Carmel" is not a majority pronunciation here in New York City.

[H. du Bois]

It's a Great Lakes thing - New York City/Boston coastal accents are very different. Sorry, should have specified - I'm talking very north, here - New York City was south, where I came from!

Edited May 25, 2006 by H. du Bois (log)

[Toliver]

I grew up in San Diego and it was always pronounced "Carmel Corn", not car-a-mel corn. So maybe it is a "southern" thing.

[Kouign Aman]

Car-mel corn, but car-a-mels.

And car-a-mel apples.

Also from SoCal.

[alanamoana]

kouign aman, i bet you give points to whoever can pronounce your screen name!

i just read about this dessert in an issue of pastry's best magazine. i just thought you were from the middle east somewhere...hehehe

[Sencha]

Food really is something in which I've heard people endlessly butcher words. I certainly don't claim to be a linguist, capable of pronouncing words from every language on this planet perfectly, but it's amusing to listen to people at times.

-Jalapeño

Yes, as common as they are in many areas of the US (although, plenty of people never use them), I hear people mispronouncing this word.

-Orange

Many people can pronounce this perfectly fine, but some people in the northeastern area of the US pronounce the "or" part as "ahr". Somehow, the humor I found in such never got old.

-Panko

I constantly hear it pronounced with a long "A", but it's really a short "A".

-Canned food (well, not all of it, but rather what is probably a majority)

I always hear people calling it "food". Such a silly mispronunciation! It's pronounced "garbage" or "trash"! I just really can't stand most canned food...

[Meredith380]

This may not fit into the catagory, but I recently had a guest call and ask about the details regarding our chicken dish (bad sign off the bat, IMO).

I described it as being stuffed with a vegetable mousse, in a black truffle sauce. The response? "So it has chocolate in it". I was bewildered, then explained truffles are a type of mushrooms in this instance. I then re-read the description. Again, she replied, "so it has chocolate in it". "Um.. no, what makes you think that, ma'am?".

"Well it has MOUSSE in it!".

I had to detail to her that mousse is a preparation method, and not exclusive to chocolate.

I also commonly hear people mispronounce haricots vert as "harry cot vert". Always makes me giggle.

[Pan]

[...]-Jalapeño   

Yes, as common as they are in many areas of the US (although, plenty of people never use them), I hear people mispronouncing this word.

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How, with "j" as in "joy"? "N" as in "no"?

-Orange

Many people can pronounce this perfectly fine, but some people in the northeastern area of the US pronounce the "or" part as "ahr". Somehow, the humor I found in such never got old.[...]

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When I was in North Carolina (or should I say "Noth Carolahnuh"?) at Eastern Music Festival, fellow students from the Carolinas and I suppose Georgia would ask me to "Say dahg." So I said "dawg," to their continual amusement. "He said doo-w'g!", they claimed. "No, I didn't say 'doo-w'g,' I said 'dawg.'" More laughter ensued. And this from folks who pronounced the name Ted "Tay-y'd." Not that I mind the two-syllable treatment of that name, mind you, it's just that you might think that would make them more tolerant of what they misheard as a two-syllable pronunciation of other words, but nope. They were nice kids and pretty friendly, but that routine got tiresome for me really fast. The upshot? If you're from Oregon, you can tell us that it's wrong to pronounce the state "Ahregahn," as I used to until I heard a native of that state pronounce its name, but you can't tell us it's wrong to call an orange an "ahrinj." That's just our accent. Laugh at a distance, if you must, but not when you're here as our guest. We speak English just as well as you do, it's just that you do it your way and we do it our way. Once again, proof that we English speakers are all divided by a common language...

[Terrasanct]

Oh, good--I was going to start a thread like this today, but I knew there must be one somewhere. Now I'll have to read the whole thing to see if anyone has addressed cannelles/caneles/canneles and whether it's two or three syllables. And provolone--three or four?

[Sencha]

[...]-Jalapeño   

Yes, as common as they are in many areas of the US (although, plenty of people never use them), I hear people mispronouncing this word.

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How, with "j" as in "joy"? "N" as in "no"?

-Orange

Many people can pronounce this perfectly fine, but some people in the northeastern area of the US pronounce the "or" part as "ahr". Somehow, the humor I found in such never got old.[...]

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When I was in North Carolina (or should I say "Noth Carolahnuh"?) at Eastern Music Festival, fellow students from the Carolinas and I suppose Georgia would ask me to "Say dahg." So I said "dawg," to their continual amusement. "He said doo-w'g!", they claimed. "No, I didn't say 'doo-w'g,' I said 'dawg.'" More laughter ensued. And this from folks who pronounced the name Ted "Tay-y'd." Not that I mind the two-syllable treatment of that name, mind you, it's just that you might think that would make them more tolerant of what they misheard as a two-syllable pronunciation of other words, but nope. They were nice kids and pretty friendly, but that routine got tiresome for me really fast. The upshot? If you're from Oregon, you can tell us that it's wrong to pronounce the state "Ahregahn," as I used to until I heard a native of that state pronounce its name, but you can't tell us it's wrong to call an orange an "ahrinj." That's just our accent. Laugh at a distance, if you must, but not when you're here as our guest. We speak English just as well as you do, it's just that you do it your way and we do it our way. Once again, proof that we English speakers are all divided by a common language...

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I don't think I've ever heard anyone pronounce the "J" as in "joy", unless they were just saying it that way for fun. The issue is mainly with...the rest of the word. It tends to be the wrong "N" sound and/or the use of a long "E". Other times, I hear people say "hala-PAIN-yow".

I certainly didn't mean any personal insult to you when I spoke of the pronunciation of "orange", but I was simply stating something I believe to be a mispronunciation. Accent or not, it is a mispronunciation by standard American English. That is not to say that it is wrong for people to have accents, and indeed language is more complex than correct standard language entails, but it does not necessarily make it right by said standards. There are plenty of people who use colloquialisms, such as "y'all" and "ain't", but despite widespread usage of such, it is not considered correct.

Accents, however, are one the reasons for a myriad of mispronunciations, which, in turn, are passed down to the next generation, and so on. The people who learn these accents (usually from childhood, however, others from exposure) often don't even think about it, considering their pronunciation correct, and, ever so simply, it is correct within their accent, but not so by standard language. Accent, of course, has no impact upon a person's understanding and command of a language, so I was by no means trying to insinuate a lack of knowledge based on any particular accent.

As for laughing......

I did some of that when I lived in the northeast.

I should make it clear, however, that I, unlike those you described in North Carolina, did not try to force people to say certain words in order to get a laugh. I merely went through my day, just as everyone else did, trying not to pay attention to such matters, but, on occasion, certain words really stuck out.

It takes all sorts of people.

[Pan]

[...]I certainly didn't mean any personal insult to you when I spoke of the pronunciation of "orange", but I was simply stating something I believe to be a mispronunciation. Accent or not,  it is a mispronunciation by standard American English.[...]

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And that, in a nutshell, is the problem I have with your point of view. Native speaker accents of English words are not "mispronunciations," and I don't think you could find one linguist who would agree with such a judgmental and -- whether you intend it to be so or not -- condescending viewpoint. Nor is there any agreed-upon standard English pronunciation in the US, unlike the Queen's English, for example. When you start talking about "ain't" (particularly for contractions other than "am not"), you're moving over to standard grammar, which does exist in the US. Nothing the least bit "wrong" with "y'all," though; it's just a regional colloquialism.

I think if some of you believe that native-speaker accents other than your own are "mispronunciations" or "substandard," you might want to spend some time on the alt.usage.english newsgroup (though not too long, because I found that many of the subscribers were -- well, no further comment; you'll see ). Meanwhile, we'd probably do best to reserve this thread for actual mistakes, not regional differences in pronunciation of English words. At that point: "You say 'potayto' and I say 'potahto'...Let's call the whole thing off."

[MaxH]

I am tossing the American Heritage Dictionary.  It lists 'ex-presso' as an alternative pronunciation of es-presso ...

American Heritage Dictionary is like the New World Dictionary: It's the trendiest of reference materials.  Instead of leading from the front (as dictionaries used to be bastions of proper usage), many now are reduced to reporting only "popular usage".

Wait a minute. First Kim (and Susan), please mention edition and size of AHD you have. That's important, more below. I've got a shelf of anglophone dictionaries handy (not counting the foreigners). For years, many US word fans have prized the full-size 3rd ed. of the AHD. (1992, not quite 12 inches [30 cm] high, often black paper cover). Just months ago I was told (by a literary scholar) that lexicographers and linguists dislike the AHD for being too prescriptive, exactly opposite of complaints above. To name just one example (probably distracting, because it's outside many people's universe), for 25 years I've seen complaints in print about a US pronunciation shift in a word I don't use much but some people do, especially if they are being "fancy." As one essayist put it in the 1980s, the "correct" or traditional way to say this word, patina, stresses the first syllable (like STAMina), but that newbies, so to speak, shifted it to paTEENa and don't realize this. My point: AHD fullsize 3rd supports that essayist (PAT-uh-na as the leading pronunciation example) and gives the story behind the word. (It comes from paten, if you're curious.)

The AHD originally stood out via pictures (now more common) and advice from a diverse Usage Panel. (Which split evenly, in 3rd ed., on US syllable stress for harrass, in which "Curiously, ... each side regards itself as an embattled minority.") Between the 3rd and the 4th editions though, the photos went to color, unfortunately in some cases (to see why, compare beret, derby, and fedora in fullsize 3rd vs. 4th). It also simplified or omitted many diverting, even brilliant little articles about strange word histories and dilemmas. For instance, at aggravate, Comstockery, dinner (apropos this forum!), Frankenstein, kludge ("not `etymologist-friendly' " -- AHD), and Melba toast. May have made other changes too, and it is in process of revision, current 4th to be replaced by "new" 4th this summer.

My defense of AHD therefore reflects only 3rd and earlier.

[H. du Bois]

Native speaker accents of English words are not "mispronunciations," ...

I'm with Pan on this one. Otherwise, the fact that I grew up saying "karmel" would have been cause for insult.

Even within New York State alone, there are vast regional differences in pronunciation. I grew up with a Great Lakes accent, complete with flat As and Os, but went to college with a bunch of downstaters, who took merciless potshots at the upstaters' speech. Me, I couldn't figure out why anyone who pronounced "coffee" or "water" so very oddly had a right to make fun. They couldn't mock mine, because I'd beaten my regional dialect into submission a few years earlier, after a friend who'd grown up in the south quite literally wept with laughter at the way I said "pecan" (pee-can, as opposed to her pe-cahn). Had she not mortified me, I'd probably still have my twang.

Regionalisms are not mispronunciations. Odd as they may sound, they are correct, and you may sound equally as "incorrect" to them.

[Fengyi]

I've worked with some serving staff so ingrained in the traditional "English-style of dinner service" (if you know what I mean) that when I had arranged for a (Malmsey) Madeira to be served with the cheese they all managed to pronouce it.......... "port"

[Fengyi]

My personal pet peeve is when people are in Chinese restaurants (or in Chinese dishes) and they call beancurd 'Tofu'. Argh! It's a D! Doufu! (or Daufu or whatever dialect...but it's still a D).

And as for my question:

with Foul Moudammas....I think that I know it's "fool" for the first word, but where does the stress go on the last word?!?! I try and elide the whole thing - or just ask for 'foul'! I've no clue but I like them!

[patti]

Although it's not quite the same thing, menus with "corn beef" or "whip cream" sometimes get on my nerves. I just say the serenity prayer to myself and move on.

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Ack! I hate that, too. I see "old fashion" and "ice tea" so often that I'd decided maybe it's just me who thinks it should be "old fashioned" and "iced tea". I thought I'd seen the worst when I saw "stuff shrimp" on a menu. That is, until I saw "stuff shrimps" on another!

[patti]

Okay, I'm on the side of the anti-expresso, but y'know what I can't say without feeling pretentious?  Croissant.  I pronounce it as Burger King does, not the French way, and I speak French!  I went to KOOLinary school there!  And not that I would EVER defend Emeril's cooking, but I think the manniase thing is a regional (Louisiana) pronunciation.  He's just keeping "his" culture alive.

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First, I'm from Louisiana and I always say mayonnaise (and kwa sohn, for that matter). Second, Emeril isn't from Louisiana, and although he might be preserving his culture, it isn't Cajun or Yat or Creole, or any of the other diverse New Orleans cultures (NTTAWW his own culture).

Having said that, there are plenty of regional pronunciations that are worth a smile or two. Cajun and New Orleans accents are completely different from each other, each interesting in their own right.

[Pan]

My personal pet peeve is when people are in Chinese restaurants (or in Chinese dishes) and they call beancurd 'Tofu'. Argh! It's a D! Doufu! (or Daufu or whatever dialect...but it's still a D).[...]

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"Tofu" is long since an English word by now. People who don't know the Chinese names would just be confused by a spelling with a "d."

[AnnieTea]

Moët & Chandon is another trick for the unsuspecting.  Moët, so I've read, is actually Dutch and the "t" is pronounced (Chandon is French).

THW

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I've been to the source in France - it is "Moe-ay" the ay part should sound like hay without the h. The t is not pronounced. Then "shawn-don" with the n only appearing very lightly at the end.

[Sugarella]

"Sammiches."

[anzu]

My personal pet peeve is when people are in Chinese restaurants (or in Chinese dishes) and they call beancurd 'Tofu'. Argh! It's a D! Doufu! (or Daufu or whatever dialect...but it's still a D).

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Nitpicking here, but the sound in Chinese is not actually a 'd'. It is an unaspirated 't' sound (not a sound that appears in English at all. though it is pretty common in many languages worldwide). English speakers tend always to aspirate their 't' when it is not combined with another consonant. That is, they add a puff of air with/after the 't' when they pronounce it. They do the same with 'k' and 'p' as well.

(as a test, a native speaker of English can try saying 'tar' vs 'star' and note the puff of air that appears with the first 't' and is absent or much reduced with the second).

By contrast, 'd' is a voiced sound, and voiced sounds are extremely rare in Chinese. I believe they appear only in Shanghai dialect.

Incidentally, the difference between aspirated, non-aspirated, and voiced sounds is why some romanization systems of Chinese other than pinyin (such as the Wade-Giles system) use t and t' to represent the sounds now represented as d and t in pinyin.

If you hear an average native English speaker pronouncing 'tofu; or 'doufu', therefore, both the 't' and the 'd' sound they will produce almost cerrtainly be inaccurate if compared to how it's pronounced in Chinese. It's just that, of the two, the 't' - due to the aspiration that is added - sounds further removed from the actual Chinese sound.

[MaxH]

Nitpicking here, but the sound in Chinese is not actually a 'd'. It is an unaspirated 't' sound (not a sound that appears in English at all. though it is pretty common in many languages worldwide). English speakers tend always to aspirate their 't' when it is not combined with another consonant. That is, they add a puff of air with/after the 't' when they pronounce it

Tend, yes; but it depends on which English. Friends from "commonwealth" countries, when they warm to this subject, love to complain that North American English (US particularly) softens its "t" sounds, for instance at a "par-dy."

"Doufu" is nothing to an accurate rendering of "tamari" (subject of an earlier thread, possibly here).

Or to the mirth and back-slapping and demands for encore that greet innocent foreigners (not just the English-speaking ones!) garbling the word "Gouda" in the Netherlands. (I spoke it as "goo-da;" locals were delighted, wanted to hear more, claimed they'd never heard such a word before). Both the strongly-aspirated H at the beginning (not a standard English sound) and the "ow" vowel of the accurate, or NL, version, are new to many anglophones using that word.

[Kim Shook]

I am tossing the American Heritage Dictionary.  It lists 'ex-presso' as an alternative pronunciation of es-presso ...

American Heritage Dictionary is like the New World Dictionary: It's the trendiest of reference materials.  Instead of leading from the front (as dictionaries used to be bastions of proper usage), many now are reduced to reporting only "popular usage".

Wait a minute. First Kim (and Susan), please mention edition and size of AHD you have. That's important, more below. I've got a shelf of anglophone dictionaries handy (not counting the foreigners). For years, many US word fans have prized the full-size 3rd ed. of the AHD. (1992, not quite 12 inches [30 cm] high, often black paper cover). Just months ago I was told (by a literary scholar) that lexicographers and linguists dislike the AHD for being too prescriptive, exactly opposite of complaints above. To name just one example (probably distracting, because it's outside many people's universe), for 25 years I've seen complaints in print about a US pronunciation shift in a word I don't use much but some people do, especially if they are being "fancy." As one essayist put it in the 1980s, the "correct" or traditional way to say this word, patina, stresses the first syllable (like STAMina), but that newbies, so to speak, shifted it to paTEENa and don't realize this. My point: AHD fullsize 3rd supports that essayist (PAT-uh-na as the leading pronunciation example) and gives the story behind the word. (It comes from paten, if you're curious.)

The AHD originally stood out via pictures (now more common) and advice from a diverse Usage Panel. (Which split evenly, in 3rd ed., on US syllable stress for harrass, in which "Curiously, ... each side regards itself as an embattled minority.") Between the 3rd and the 4th editions though, the photos went to color, unfortunately in some cases (to see why, compare beret, derby, and fedora in fullsize 3rd vs. 4th). It also simplified or omitted many diverting, even brilliant little articles about strange word histories and dilemmas. For instance, at aggravate, Comstockery, dinner (apropos this forum!), Frankenstein, kludge ("not `etymologist-friendly' " -- AHD), and Melba toast. May have made other changes too, and it is in process of revision, current 4th to be replaced by "new" 4th this summer.

My defense of AHD therefore reflects only 3rd and earlier.

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um. It's whatever turned up on yahoo when I search for 'dictionary'

[AnnieTea]

Or to the mirth and back-slapping and demands for encore that greet innocent foreigners (not just the English-speaking ones!) garbling the word "Gouda" in the Netherlands. (I spoke it as "goo-da;" locals were delighted, wanted to hear more, claimed they'd never heard such a word before). Both the strongly-aspirated H at the beginning (not a standard English sound) and the "ow" vowel of the accurate, or NL, version, are new to many anglophones using that word.

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