Sodium citrate. Is it Sour Salt?

[vonolen]

I just created a cheese sauce following these instructions Homemade sodium citrate = smooth cheese sauce.  Extremely pleased with the outcome. 

 

I had some follow up questions, and posted inquiries elsewhere.  In the course of the conversation, someone mentioned that sodium citrate & Sour Salt were the same thing.  I then discovered I actually had a bottle of Sour Salt in the cupboard. 

 

However, I have since gotten contradictory opinions from sources about whether they are, in fact, the same.  As we can see, the label says citric acid. 

 

[cdh]

I think that if you react that stuff with baking soda you'll get the molecule you need after all the fizzing subsides.  Sodium citrate is a precipitate of sodium bicarbonate and citric acid...  

[Kerry Beal]

As @cdh says - they are not the same. Citric acid is the weak fruit acid and sodium citrate is the sodium salt of citric acid. But citric acid and sour salt are the same thing, leading to more confusion cause it's not a salt at all! 

Edited September 3 by Kerry Beal (log)

[pastrygirl]

If you followed the directions and made sodium citrate out of citrus juice (citric acid) and baking soda, then you have personal experience that the two are different chemically.

 

Can two different things have the same common or colloquial name?  Sure.  Don't get your edible Himalayan pink salt mixed up with your meat-curing pink salt.

 

Are people ever mistaken, no matter how confident?  Absolutely!

Edited September 3 by pastrygirl (log)

[gfweb]

12 hours ago, pastrygirl said:

.

 

Are people ever mistaken, no matter how confident?  Absolutely!

 

 

Just look at facebook

[TdeV]

Welcome @vonolen. In pursuit of great cheese sauces, also have a look at Melty Cheese Calculator which can be found in the header on every page of eGullet.

[vonolen]

17 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

As @cdh says - they are not the same. Citric acid is the weak fruit acid and sodium citrate is the sodium salt of citric acid. But citric acid and sour salt are the same thing, leading to more confusion cause it's not a salt at all! 

 

@Kerry Beal,

 

So happy I discovered egullet.org.

 

Thanks to all for confirming my doubts.  That said, is it reaching here to ask if sour salt is simply "citric acid", could it be used as a substitute for the lemon juice to create sodium citrate?

 

 

[Kerry Beal]

34 minutes ago, vonolen said:

 

@Kerry Beal,

 

So happy I discovered egullet.org.

 

Thanks to all for confirming my doubts.  That said, is it reaching here to ask if sour salt is simply "citric acid", could it be used as a substitute for the lemon juice to create sodium citrate?

 

 

I bet it could. 

[vonolen]

2 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

I bet it could. 

 

Where would I find a fixed chart/equation for the conversion of sour salt to equal a given amount of lemon juice in a recipe. 

 

I just did a search for "1 tsp sour salt = ? lemon juice". 

 

One source says "1 tsp of powdered citric acid is equivalent to ¼ cup lemon juice" stating that Sour salt is simply the powdered form of citric acid.  Substitute 1/8 teaspoon of citric acid (sour salt) in 1 tablespoon of water for every 1 tablespoon of lemon juice called for in pan sauces to risotto to hummus.  That math doesn't "add up'.

 

Another says "1 Tbsp of lemon juice = 1/2 tsp of sour salt. 

 

One other says "One teaspoon (5 grams) of citric acid is equal in acidity to about 1/2 cup (120 ml) of lemon juice, which agrees with the second part of that first answer, but refers to pan sauce.

 

Am I nit pickin' here? I just want to get it right.  Long history of less than Ideal results with cheese sauces before the recipe I cited..

 

 

 

Edited September 3 by vonolen (log)

[Kerry Beal]

1 hour ago, vonolen said:

 

Where would I find a fixed chart/equation for the conversion of sour salt to equal a given amount of lemon juice in a recipe. 

 

I just did a search for "1 tsp sour salt = ? lemon juice". 

 

One source says "1 tsp of powdered citric acid is equivalent to ¼ cup lemon juice" stating that Sour salt is simply the powdered form of citric acid.  Substitute 1/8 teaspoon of citric acid (sour salt) in 1 tablespoon of water for every 1 tablespoon of lemon juice called for in pan sauces to risotto to hummus.  That math doesn't "add up'.

 

Another says "1 Tbsp of lemon juice = 1/2 tsp of sour salt. 

 

One other says "One teaspoon (5 grams) of citric acid is equal in acidity to about 1/2 cup (120 ml) of lemon juice, which agrees with the second part of that first answer, but refers to pan sauce.

 

Am I nit pickin' here? I just want to get it right.  Long history of less than Ideal results with cheese sauces before the recipe I cited..

 

 

 

University chemistry is so far away that I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess. Sodium citrate is cheap!

[haresfur]

On 9/3/2024 at 11:25 AM, Kerry Beal said:

As @cdh says - they are not the same. Citric acid is the weak fruit acid and sodium citrate is the sodium salt of citric acid. But citric acid and sour salt are the same thing, leading to more confusion cause it's not a salt at all! 

 

I did a little looking and it gets complicated because apparently when people say sodium citrate they generally mean tri-sodium citrate and there are mono- and di-sodium citrate, depending on how many hydrogen ions you have knocked off. So the pH gets buffered by multiple reactions.

 

Then, if you want to look at the reactions making the stuff from citric acid and sodium bicarbonate, you get into the whole system of carbonate chemistry with carbonate, bicarbonate and carbonic acid, which is H2CO3; a water and a carbon dioxide. So there is pH buffering in that system, too. And a lot (most?) of the carbonate in water at low pH is actually CO2, not joined to a water molecule. I studied carbonate geochemistry and it is really hard to wrap your brain around. Throw in the citrate chemistry and I'm out of here. I'll buy my sodium citrate powder, thanks. 

[mgaretz]

6 hours ago, vonolen said:

1 tsp of powdered citric acid

 

I have never seen it powdered - only small crystals (about table salt sized). So that would affect the conversion.