Defining "Ramen Noodles"

[dcarch]

Staff note: This discussion has been split from the Dinner 2022 topic.

 

19 hours ago, Shelby said:

🤣  I love that you remember that!

 

I got my Ramen a while back.  I was dying to use it last night, but I need someone to translate the directions 🤣

 

The noodles are all in one package, but the others are in separate packages sooooo...I was confused lol.

 

 

 

 

I certainly didn't want to screw up the best most expensive Ramen ever 😬

 

I think what you are looking at is not Ramen noodles. So the ramen noodle methods of preparation should not be used for this kind of noodles. Different material, and different process in their making.

 

I think what you are looking is wheat flour, and ramen is kansui water treated wheat flour. What you are looking at is air dried and Ramen is fried.

 

dcarch

 

[heidih]

44 minutes ago, dcarch said:

 

I think what you are looking at is not Ramen noodles. So the ramen noodle methods of preparation should not be used for this kind of noodles. Different material, and different process in their making.

 

I think what you are looking is wheat flour, and ramen is kansui water treated wheat flour. What you are looking at is air dried and Ramen is fried.

 

dcarch

 

I thought those fried noodle blocks as originally promoted by Nissin in Japan as instant ramen is its own thing. Originally by Nissin in Japan. We have a huge factory locally. I think @Duvel's explanation correct for @Shelby's product.

[Anna N]

1 hour ago, dcarch said:

I think what you are looking at is not Ramen noodles

Well, they are made in Japan, and the Japanese seem to think they’re Ramen noodles.

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Anna N
To add image. (log)

[dcarch]

In Wikipedia, they seem to call it :

 

Sōmen (Japanese: 素麺), somyeon (Korean: 소면; 素麵), or sùmiàn (Chinese: 素麵) is a very thin noodle made of wheat flour, less than 1.3 mm in diameter. The noodles are used extensively in East Asian cuisines. Japanese sōmen is made by stretching the dough with vegetable oil, forming thin strands that are then air dried for later use. This is distinct from a similar thin noodle, hiyamugi, which is knife-cut.

In Japan, sōmen is usually served cold with a light dipping sauce called tsuyu. South Korean somyeon may be eaten in hot or cold noodle soups. Sōmen is typically high in sodium.^[2].

 

I think they label all Japanese noodle ramen for Western buyers. I don't think ramen noodles are white because the alkaline treatment.

 

dcarch 

[Anna N]

1 hour ago, dcarch said:

I think they label all Japanese noodle ramen for Western buyers.

 

This is simply untrue. You have only to log onto Amazon to see that ramen are not the only Japanese instant noodles on offer.  And my local Asian grocery store offers even more. 
 

And while you trust Wikipedia, I put my trust in eG’s @Duvel  

[dcarch]

1 hour ago, Anna N said:

This is simply untrue. You have only to log onto Amazon to see that ramen are not the only Japanese instant noodles on offer.  And my local Asian grocery store offers even more. 

My bad. I exaggerated "all". 

 

1 hour ago, Anna N said:

And while you trust Wikipedia, I put my trust in eG’s @Duvel  

 

I showed the package to a Japanese friend. He said the Japanese writings do not say "ramen". The writings say "small noodles" {meaning thin noodles?)

I also trust Duvel's cooking method for ramen. I am just not sure those are ramen noodles. 

 

Happy Holidays to all. Packing to the airport. Got a ton of cooking to do.

dcarch

[heidih]

34 minutes ago, dcarch said:

My bad. I exaggerated "all". 

 

 

I showed the package to a Japanese friend. He said the Japanese writings do not say "ramen". The writings say "small noodles" {meaning thin noodles?)

I also trust Duvel's cooking method for ramen. I am just not sure those are ramen noodles. 

 

Happy Holidays to all. Packing to the airport. Got a ton of cooking to do.

dcarch

Hope to see that cooking, Safe travels

[dcarch]

41 minutes ago, heidih said:

Hope to see that cooking, Safe travels

Thanks!

 

Travel step #1 - covid test. Negative. 

But Is that good news?

If test positive, having been vaccinated, probably just minor symptoms.  I can back out and not travel. No cooking!

Now tested negative, I will have to deal with the nightmare of big time fancy cooking for many people in someone else's kitchen and in a different city. HELP!!!

 

dcarch  🤪

 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by dcarch (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

9 hours ago, Shelby said:

🤣  I love that you remember that!

 

I got my Ramen a while back.  I was dying to use it last night, but I need someone to translate the directions 🤣

 

The noodles are all in one package, but the others are in separate packages sooooo...I was confused lol.

 

 

 

 

I certainly didn't want to screw up the best most expensive Ramen ever 😬

 

English language Ichiran instructions are on packages intended for the US, and may be googled.  If you thought Ichiran was expensive from amazon, check the price on the Ichiran website.

 

I must admit that I am coming to like this, but it still is not outstanding.  And at the price, not cost effective.

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

2 hours ago, Anna N said:

This is simply untrue. You have only to log onto Amazon to see that ramen are not the only Japanese instant noodles on offer.  And my local Asian grocery store offers even more. 
 

And while you trust Wikipedia, I put my trust in eG’s @Duvel  

 

Both wikipedia and Ichiran maintain the noodles in question are indeed ramen...

https://www.ichiranusa.com/about/

 

Note, however that the Ichiran noodles are not "instant ramen".  Instant ramen, delicious as it may be, is something else.

 

 

[Anna N]

8 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Both wikipedia and Ichiran maintain the noodles in question are indeed ramen...

https://www.ichiranusa.com/about/

 

Note, however that the Ichiran noodles are not "instant ramen".  Instant ramen, delicious as it may be, is something else.

 

 

Not sure how you are splitting hairs. Amazon considers them ramen and instant. Would love to hear your reasoning.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

34 minutes ago, Anna N said:

Not sure how you are splitting hairs. Amazon considers them ramen and instant. Would love to hear your reasoning.

 

Ichiran ramen is an alkalized noodle, like other ramen, dried similar to Italian dried pasta.  Like Italian dried pasta, dried ramen must be boiled in water.  Instant ramen on the other hand is par-cooked, freeze dried, and finished -- to the delight of countless college students -- simply by adding hot water.

 

[Anna N]

20 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Ichiran ramen is an alkalized noodle, like other ramen, dried similar to Italian dried pasta.  Like Italian dried pasta, dried ramen must be boiled in water.  Instant ramen on the other hand is par-cooked, freeze dried, and finished -- to the delight of countless college students -- simply by adding hot water.

 

I think you are using “instant” a little too narrowly. I have eaten many packages of instant noodles that required  2-5 minutes of cooking in boiling water. I would say that what you are describing are cup noodles.

 

I enjoy these

 

but they are cooked in boiling water for I believe it’s three minutes. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Anna N
No editing done. (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

1 hour ago, Anna N said:

I think you are using “instant” a little too narrowly. I have eaten many packages of instant noodles that required  2-5 minutes of cooking in boiling water. I would say that what you are describing are cup noodles.

 

I enjoy these

 

but they are cooked in boiling water for I believe it’s three minutes. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_noodles

 

 

Edit:  nothing I could find on the Ichiran site describes their ramen product as instant ramen.

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by JoNorvelleWalker (log)

[Anna N]

9 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_noodles

 

 

Edit:  nothing I could find on the Ichiran site describes their ramen product as instant ramen.

 

Taken directly from the Wikipedia page you quoted:

”Dried noodle blocks are designed to be cooked or soaked in boiling water before eating.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

As I see it the dichotomy is that instant ramen is par-cooked, while ramen is not.

 

[liuzhou]

I think we need to remember that definitions change. Today, whether we like it or not, many or, even most people outside of Japan equate ramen with instant ramen and have never eaten anything else. For them the two terms are interchangeable. In the history of linguistics, the majority get to choose the definitions.

The word has been changing for centuries. Originally, 拉面 / 拉麵  (lā miàn), the noodles were imported to Japan and they and the dish went their own way, also changing orthography to 拉麺, ラーメン or らーめん and  pronunciation on the way.

 

There's nothing to stop the tide.

[Duvel]

I think the terms involved here all offer a certain amount of flexibility, just as the Japanese take liberties when adapting originally foreign dishes to their palate:

 

Ramen refers to the dish, not the noodle. The noodles are called generically chukamen (“chinese noodles”), and usually mean alkaline noodles (that most people colloquially refer to as Ramen), but egg noodles or regular wheat noodles (referred to as Somen / Yakisoba depending on thickness and oil-content) also make their appearance occasionally. A wheat type noodle is for example used in Tsukemen (or [cold] dipping noodles with a condensed Ramen stock). 
 

Unsually, the term “instant” also rather refers to a dish type, namely one that can conveniently be prepared at home, rather than laboriously being cooked at a restaurant. It refers to the whole dish, and emphasis is more on the soup part (as it takes significantly more time to prepare broth and condiments, then the noodles). With regard to the noodles: fresh noodles cook in under one minute in a restaurant, while require cooking / soaking for 2-3 min at home, so they are not the “instant” part.

 

There is however Momofuku Ando’s contribution to the culinary world: flash-fried noodles, which are now colloquially referred to as “instant Ramen” - although this term again refers actually to the whole dish (cup or package). The noodles used for this process may or may not contain alkali salts.

[liuzhou]

4 hours ago, Duvel said:

Ramen refers to the dish, not the noodle

 

Perhaps now, but not in the past. Fresh hand pulled noodles are still sold here as 'ramen'. China has taken up the Japanese spelling when using 'English'.

 

 

 

 

[haresfur]

3 hours ago, liuzhou said:

 

Perhaps now, but not in the past. Fresh hand pulled noodles are still sold here as 'ramen'. China has taken up the Japanese spelling when using 'English'.

 

 

 

 

 

I would read that as "noodles used to make ramen" (although of course there is nothing stopping you from using them to make something else). So, no, these are not ramen - they are a particular type of noodle. Here, at least, if I wanted someone to pick up a pack of these, I would never say, "Go to the store and get some ramen."

[liuzhou]

1 hour ago, haresfur said:

if I wanted someone to pick up a pack of these, I would never say, "Go to the store and get some ramen."

 

They are not noodles used to make ramen, although one could. They are using the English spelling to describe hand pulled noodles which will be used to make many different dishes, of which Japanese style ramen will be very few.

 

The same brand has 'udon noodles',  and 'buckwheat noodles' in similar packs. They arent for making 'udon' or  'buckwheat'.

 

People here will and do say the equivalent of 'get some ramen'. Never 'noodles to make ramen'.

Edited December 18, 2022 by liuzhou (log)

[Duvel]

10 minutes ago, liuzhou said:

They are using the English spelling to describe hand pulled noodles which will be used to make many different dishes, of which Japanese style ramen will be very few.

In Japan, the noodles used to make Ramen are not hand pulled, but rolled out, flattened and cut. 

[Margaret Pilgrim]

A little clarification or obfuscation, depending on your point of view.

[KennethT]

5 minutes ago, Duvel said:

In Japan, the noodles used to make Ramen are not hand pulled, but rolled out, flattened and cut. 

A ramen-ya here in NYC has a noodle machine in the basement that you can watch working. Pretty cool.

[liuzhou]

5 minutes ago, Duvel said:

In Japan, the noodles used to make Ramen are not hand pulled, but rolled out, flattened and cut. 

 

but the name comes from 拉面 which does mean 'pulled noodles'.