A Small NYC Kitchen Reno 2017

[weinoo]

I've started a few topics about various renovation related subjects (here and here), but figured I'd put the overall project in its own. Pix often tell the story even better...

 

It helps to have these. Well, you need to have these if you expect to get anything done in your coop.

 

 

Then stuff can start...

 

 

 

 

And then start getting rebuilt.

 

 

 

A little better electrical system.

 

 

 

New pipes have to be done in the walls.

 

 

 

 

 

This Started on September 8th. They've had approximately 25 days on which work was done.

 

Proceeding along nicely, I'd say.

[gfweb]

Copper pipes are code? No PVC?

[HungryChris]

I admire your courage! It is an undertaking that I will take on, but one that I have put off repeatedly. Best of luck and and speedy recovery!

HC

[quiet1]

9 minutes ago, HungryChris said:

I admire your courage! It is an undertaking that I will take on, but one that I have put off repeatedly. Best of luck and and speedy recovery!

HC

 

In our house it goes "omg I hate thus whatever." *brief period researching replacements* *realize how much cost/fuss/mess it would be* *put brochures/info nicely filed on the bookshelf for an undetermined 'later'* Repeat every time some element gets crazy making. Our cabinets are ~1950ish wood with oddly used space and stupidly shallow drawers.

 

Occasionally a burst of frustration coincides with a sale, which is how we ended up with a Bosch dishwasher (home show sale older model, still loads better than what we had) and a Miele fridge (also home show, floor demo model timed nicely with a work bonus.) So we have a not-very-modern kitchen with higher end appliances. They are less annoying though. We lose WAY less food to the leftover gods now than with the side-by-side monstrosity it replaced. (Side by side is downstairs being overflow freezer and keeping drinks cold until it dies.)

[rotuts]

@weinoo 

 

thanks for letting us fallow along.

 

didn't you have a fairly new stove not so long ago ?

 

a keeper ?

[weinoo]

13 hours ago, gfweb said:

Copper pipes are code? No PVC?

 

Yes - everything is being done to code; plumbing has passed inspection. This might interest you:

 

 

Quote

 

Today, the cast iron piping is gone and, according to Bob Bellini, president of Varsity Plumbing & Heating Inc. in (where else?) Flushing, water distribution systems are now made predominantly of copper. “Copper piping is faster, easier and lasts longer,” he says.

 

Plastic piping has also become more popular over the last few years, mostly because of its affordability factor, but Bellini says you won’t find any being used in New York City plumbing systems. “It all comes down to city building code, and the New York City code doesn’t allow for that,” he says. “Plastic piping also won’t withstand the high water pressure of a taller building and, should it burn, gives off noxious fumes that will spread.”

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, rotuts said:

@weinoo 

 

thanks for letting us fallow along.

 

didn't you have a fairly new stove not so long ago ?

 

a keeper ?

 

Our stove, our refrigerator and our dishwasher were all purchased about 12 years ago. I was actually able to sell the stove, dishwasher, old IKEA cabinets and countertop to someone who had recently moved into the buildings, and just wanted an upgrade from the original stuff the apartment they bought came with.

 

This saved my contractor from having to remove all that stuff...the only thing left was the fridge and sink, and the cabinets that were original to the apartment. So before they even started, it looked like this:

 

 

We're also doing our (tiny) bathroom at the same time. We're putting in a walk-in shower, with a bench, in lieu of a bathtub. It will have a drop ceiling in the shower, for extra lighting.

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2017 by weinoo (log)

[gfweb]

Thanks @weinoo . I'm not sure I buy that link that says that only copper can withstand the pressure in a tall building...but maybe so.

 

No kitchen and no bathroom...where do you go?

[weinoo]

1 minute ago, gfweb said:

Thanks @weinoo . I'm not sure I buy that link that says that only copper can withstand the pressure in a tall building...but maybe so.

 

No kitchen and no bathroom...where do you go?

My guess is it's mostly about fire protection, but I'd also venture a guess that there's a lot of pressure in some of those pipes, especially in some of the very tall buildings.

 

We are in a different apartment that we are subletting for the duration of the project.

[dcarch]

1 hour ago, weinoo said:

15 hours ago, gfweb said:

Copper pipes are code? No PVC?

 

Yes - everything is being done to code; plumbing has passed inspection. This might interest you:

 

 

Code or not Code. It may be a good idea to insulate both the hot water and cold water copper pipes.

Hot water pipes insulated will give you hot water quicked.

Cold water pipes insulated prevents sweating on a humid day.

 

dcarch

[dcarch]

1 hour ago, weinoo said:

but I'd also venture a guess that there's a lot of pressure in some of those pipes, especially in some of the very tall buildings.

 

Water pipes have to take a lot of static pressure and dynamic pressure. 

The bottom floor at the World trade Center will need to withstand almost 800 PSI of pressure.

 

dcarch

[lindag]

The plumbing in my home was done with copper pipe and I've had nothing but trouble with it

The hot water runs develop pin holes and I’ve had at least five leaks.  I'm currently waiting for my drywall guy to come and fix this last repair.  The original owner had some of the pipe torn out and replaced with flex but The harder-to-get-to pipe remains.

this is not to say there's anything wrong with copper pipe, I believe that this job was done with poor quality or defective pipe.

In my case, I almost need to keep my plumber on retainer.

[gfweb]

2 hours ago, lindag said:

The plumbing in my home was done with copper pipe and I've had nothing but trouble with it

The hot water runs develop pin holes and I’ve had at least five leaks.  I'm currently waiting for my drywall guy to come and fix this last repair.  The original owner had some of the pipe torn out and replaced with flex but The harder-to-get-to pipe remains.

this is not to say there's anything wrong with copper pipe, I believe that this job was done with poor quality or defective pipe.

In my case, I almost need to keep my plumber on retainer.

 

Copper can have trouble with leaching out metal and weakening over time. IIRC acidic water makes this worse. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by gfweb (log)

[weinoo]

A couple of things to point out, vis-a-vis the plumbing, etc. Both the architect/design team (who live in our building) and the contractor we are using, have experience doing many apartments, for many years, in our buildings (remember, there are 4 buildings in our cooperative, with close to 1,700 apartments). In addition to NYC building codes, which must be adhered to, they're very familiar with what goes on inside the walls. Any time the wet wall is taken down (as shown above), plumbing has to be replaced before the walls are rebuilt.

 

Regarding hot water, the riser is insulated. There is no wait for hot water (unless, as happens occasionally, the boiler is on the fritz, though we have 2 boilers for the 4 buildings, and one is sufficient to service all 4), and we're on the 15th floor.  Boilers were replaced a few years ago - cost us almost $5mm I believe.

 

Our contractor was one of 3 who bid on the project. I've seen work done by all 3 of the bidders, and like the work done by the one we chose most of all. He also included everything we discussed within the scope of the contract, whereas the other 2 conveniently forget a few things, so their bids were considerably lower. They recently completed (just 2 floors below us!) a gorgeous break-through, combining 2 2-bedroom apartments into a lovely, wide open 4-bedroom space, with expansive views.

 

I'm actually coming in pretty close to budget; well, not the original budget, but once I learned what all the permits/inspections/coop fees/architect fees/expeditor fees and contractor would cost, the rebudgeted budget is pretty close.  Where I was under-budgeted was for lighting - all the new stuff will be LED, dimmable, etc. etc., and it's expensive!  Where I over budgeted was actually for cabinets; we're getting what I would call semi-custom cabinets, as I can only have 21" deep cabinets on one side (yes, due to code, grrrr); we're getting the "boxes" from a company called CabParts, in Colorado, constructed of maple. The fronts of the cabinets, the drawers, and any filler pieces will all be custom made, measured after the boxes are installed, and supplied by our contractor, as part of his fees. 

 

My big disappointment is that even though our building allows us to vent to the outside (via a window, not through any walls), it became apparent once the walls were down, that this was going to be an engineering nightmare. With a short run from our range to the window (we were going to vent out the top of the window in the bathroom), the ductwork would have required 4 90° turns, a big soffit intruding into the shower space, and other aggravating things. After which, even if installed perfectly, I figured wasn't actually going to work all that well from the reams of stuff I read about range hoods and ducting. So, we're going to have a recirculating hood that will look cool, but probably not be too effective. But it will be better than what I've had for years - nothing - and I imagine if the filters are well maintained, will reduce odor and other particulates to a certain extent.

 

Our sublet is literally one floor up from our apartment, which allows me to check the work on a daily basis. Contractors are only allowed to work between the hours of 8 AM and 5 PM, with noisy work (i.e. demo) only allowed between 10 AM and 3 PM; they can't work on weekends; they can't work on federal holidays; they can't work on Jewish or other major religious holidays. So the work, which started on September 8th, or 7 weeks ago, has seen actual work a total of 29 days. My goal had always been to be completely finished before the end of the year; contractor and architects say 3 months, which would be the beginning of December. 

 

Here's my setup in the sublet:

 

 

I also have my new Instant Pot!

Edited October 29, 2017 by weinoo (log)

[rotuts]

Rocky :  good

 

CSB : good

 

 iPot : good

 

Take-Out  : OK

[weinoo]

14 hours ago, HungryChris said:

I admire your courage! It is an undertaking that I will take on, but one that I have put off repeatedly. Best of luck and and speedy recovery!

HC

HC - there was (ok, were) a final straw a few months ago. That was a leak from above, which was first noticed along the tiles in our bathroom, just above the floor. I noticed the grout stating to change color. So this involved the coop coming in, demolishing part of the wet wall, and replacing one of the waste pipes from the apartment above - they have to get to it through our walls and ceiling, if necessary. The cosmetic part of the "repair" job was not exactly the highest quality. Our tub is close to 60 years old, and I figured as I move into middle age, a step in shower might be a better fit. Our kitchen floor had been coming up for years - crappy peel and sick tiles were no match for my kitchen. I could go on - but it was indeed time. 

[weinoo]

Here's an earlier version of the drawing for the side where the appliances are going (an interesting triangle, if ever there was one).

 

 

Now, there's no range hood duct run, and there will be no hanging pots or pans - that side will be a shelf as well. To the left of the range are a 15" cabinet and a 24" wine fridge; the countertop above is going to be butcher block.

[dcarch]

1 hour ago, weinoo said:

the ductwork would have required 4 90° turns, a big soffit intruding into the shower space, and other aggravating things. After which, even if installed perfectly, I figured wasn't actually going to work all that well from the reams of stuff I read about range hoods and ducting.

 

Have you, your architect/contractor looked into inline exhaust fans? 

I have a superstition  against recirculating kitchen exhaust fans.

 

dcarch

[MSRadell]

4 hours ago, dcarch said:

 

Water pipes have to take a lot of static pressure and dynamic pressure. 

The bottom floor at the World trade Center will need to withstand almost 800 PSI of pressure.

 

dcarch

Not really, in all high-rise buildings they have booster pumps at various elevations to increase the water pressure for the higher floors. They also have check valves in the system to prevent the water in upper floors from creating excessive pressure in the lower ones. The only exception is the fire systems which have all their pumps etc. at lower elevations mainly because of the size and in the extreme case of a major fire large city fire departments, FDNY for example have high-pressure pumpers that they can use to pump additional water into the building fire protection systems.

[dcarch]

9 minutes ago, MSRadell said:

They also have check valves in the system to prevent the water in upper floors from creating excessive pressure in the lower ones.

 

There are many methods to pressure zone a highrise plumbing system. 

A check valve cannot regulate water pressure. It cuts off water 100%. A pressure regulating valve is what typically used.

 

dcarch

[weinoo]

13 minutes ago, dcarch said:

 

Have you, your architect/contractor looked into inline exhaust fans? 

I have a superstition  against recirculating kitchen exhaust fans.

 

dcarch

 

Superstitions aside, where does the exhaust air go?

[MSRadell]

1 minute ago, dcarch said:

 

There are many methods to pressure zone a highrise plumbing system. 

A check valve cannot regulate water pressure. It cuts off water 100%. A pressure regulating valve is what typically used.

 

dcarch

That's True, that's why they are put in the system to keep water pressure on upper floors from creating additional static pressure on lower floors!

[dcarch]

4 minutes ago, weinoo said:

 

Superstitions aside, where does the exhaust air go?

 

The exhaust air goes outside. Inline fan, using turbine blades design, can overcome duct resistance. You will notice recently, many leaf blowers are using turbine inline fan to move air.

An inline fan can be anywhere in the duct system, giving you some flexibility in locating the fan.

 

dcarch

 

[dcarch]

7 minutes ago, MSRadell said:

That's True, that's why they are put in the system to keep water pressure on upper floors from creating additional static pressure on lower floors!

 

But a check valve cuts off water at any pressure.

 

dcarch

[weinoo]

3 minutes ago, dcarch said:

 

The exhaust air goes outside. Inline fan, using turbine blades design, can overcome duct resistance. You will notice recently, many leaf blowers are using turbine inline fan to move air.

An inline fan can be anywhere in the duct system, giving you some flexibility in locating the fan.

 

dcarch

 

That's what I mean - the air still has to go outside, via my bathroom window, and in order to get there has to make 4 90° turns in order to do that. Coop allows 2 90° in ductwork (well, perhaps u can get away with 3).  

 

In our case, it was undoable without some hideous, ineffective modifications to the interior of our apartment.  I've seen one or two apartments where people have run right out to their kitchen window, via a large soffit, taking away part of their view, their light, and their interior space; that wasn't worth it to me.

[dcarch]

7 minutes ago, weinoo said:

Coop allows 2 90° in ductwork (well, perhaps u can get away with 3).  

 

90° bends are always a problem for regular fans to overcome back pressure. A centrifugal blower can work much better. But they don't make residential kitchen  exhaust fans using centrifugal blowers.  BTW, exhaust fans using more than one fan is not any better. Because the fans work against each other, not with each other.

 

dcarch