Calling something by its legally designated name

[Arey]

Although I don't care for the way the EU demands everybody , even on other continents stop using names improperly, I think they may have a point. Yesterday I went to the local cheese shop to buy some Brie.  I was offered double cream and triple cream bries. Bries with walnuts, or cherries, or herbs.  I told the person behind the counter that I just wanted a plain Brie, no additions.  So I bought what she said was a basic Brie although it wasn't. It was fromager d'Affinoise, which I like so I bought it.  At the Italian market I go to to buy cheese, they sell "Italian Fontina"  which is from Wisconsin. I use it in my Mac and Cheese, and it's a nice cheese, but it's not Italian, and fromager d'Affinoise is not Brie, and when I ask for Stilton I want Stilton, not Stilton with walnuts, or chutney, or peaches.  I also want it to come from England.  Another sore point is Italian bread.    Italian Bread comes from the Philadelphia-Atlantic City area.  Anything else is a poor substitute, and I feel sorry for the people who will never know what Italian Bread should be.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Arey (log)

[liuzhou]

 

Although I don't care for the way the EU demands everybody , even on other continents stop using names improperly, I think they may have a point.

 

The EU and some of the constituent members have given protection status to, among other things, certain foodstuffs.  In what way are they demanding that non-EU members comply? They would undoubtedly prefer it, as would I, but I see no evidence of them demanding it.

If you want to see a country which demands compliance with its laws in territories over which it has no jurisdiction but at the same time ignores laws in other countries, then try nearer to home.

 

I"m amazed how many US citizens I meet in China who don't realise that American law doesn't apply here.

 

You are being sold fake foods with your government's compliance. Who are they working for?

 

 

[paulraphael]

I'm all for more regulation of food names. Usually deviations are just about deception. 

 

One of my big gripes is the deli section at Whole Foods, where they say all their charcuterie is uncured. Huh? They're selling things that are by definition cured: hams, prosciuttos, etc... 

Apparently the industry lobbied to have the official definition of "uncured" altered to mean free of certain kinds of nitrates or nitrites. Which is just b.s.. -- marketing departments influencing the laws in order to pander to the public's misconceptions. Makes me want to kill people.

 

Then there are food names that have been eroded to near meaninglessness, like balsamic vinegar.

 

And food names where international fraud is prevalent that it's almost impossible to know what you're getting, like extra virgin olive oil.

 

I also get annoyed by food label claims, which, while technically accurate, are stupid, and only serve to further misconceptions. Like vegetable oils that trumpet "no cholesterol!" Well, no vegetable oil ever has or ever will contain cholesterol. And the idea that dietary cholesterol has any health effects was debunked decades ago. They're just making people stupider for their own gain.

 

p.s. I work in advertising and am not proud.

[CatPoet]

Fatfree sugar was my favorite  of the weird things that ended up the market.

 

Anyway, being in the EU, I will agree on something but others are just weird.  Swedes are fighting for their surströmming ( fermented herring), due to being fished in the Baltic , there is a problem with  pollutant,  but NO ONE  eats so much surströmming  it would harm them and  some French cheese contains the same stuff  and they still seen as ok.  And they tried to ban the use of wooden barrels, but yet again another one of the major  countries  was allowed to used wooden barrels for food.

 

Sweden is one of the larger country in Europe and yet they treat us like we are no body,  we have to fight  to protect was makes our food culture special.  Like Swedish chocolate wasnt allowed to be called chocolate because it contained too much chocolate and cocoa butter.. WFT?  We fought that one.    

 

I am all for food being protected   when it is a specialty,  when it is local and  tradition but some of the food rules they try force upon us are just weird.

[Edward J]

Although I don't care for the way the EU demands everybody , even on other continents stop using names improperly, I think they may have a point. Yesterday I went to the local cheese shop to buy some Brie.  I was offered double cream and triple cream bries. Bries with walnuts, or cherries, or herbs.  I told the person behind the counter that I just wanted a plain Brie, no additions.  So I bought what she said was a basic Brie although it wasn't. It was fromager d'Affinoise, which I like so I bought it.  At the Italian market I go to to buy cheese, they sell "Italian Fontina"  which is from Wisconsin. I use it in my Mac and Cheese, and it's a nice cheese, but it's not Italian, and fromager d'Affinoise is not Brie, and when I ask for Stilton I want Stilton, not Stilton with walnuts, or chutney, or peaches.  I also want it to come from England.  Another sore point is Italian bread.    Italian Bread comes from the Philadelphia-Atlantic City area.  Anything else is a poor substitute, and I feel sorry for the people who will never know what Italian Bread should be.

 

 

I'm getting mixed signals here.  I'm with you on the cheeses, can't stand to hear "Danish Emmenthaler" or "American Gruyere".  Stiltons do come from England, but I'm confused with the "Italian Bread"

 

I always thought "Italian bread" came from Italy, not Philly.  Or if not made in Italy, made with genuine Italian flour or some kind of authentic Italian wild yeast sour dough culture or some such.  So I dunno, does the "Italian bread" in Philly have a heavy bottom crust, typical of being baked on a stone deck oven, or does it have the typical "polka-dot" pattern on the bottom, typical of being baked on perforated 18 x 26 baker's pans in a roll-in convection oven?  Then again, to digress a bit from the subject, most Italian pasta is made from Canadian Durham wheat, and the finished product exported back to N.America.  France buys a lot of it's mustard seed from Saskatchewan (Canada), and then exports Grey Poupon and Dijon back to N.America.

[Edward J]

Fair enough, but why hang on to a name then?  If Emmethal can only come from the Emmenthal Valley in Switzerland and someone in N. America makes a real good cheese in that particular style, why not get past all that heritage baggage and call it cheese from the (insert name of place) valley from N.America?  Vancouver island produces some really excellent goat cheeses in a variety of European styles, but the makers are not hanging on to traditional European names, rather, inventing their own new names.

[cakewalk]

The (very selfish) issue I have with naming things incorrectly is that it doesn't help the learning process. Cheese is a good case in point. I don't know much about cheese at all. I taste things and buy what I like. I'd like to know that there is at least some level of consistency even if I buy cheese at different places. Whole Foods used to have a Stilton that almost literally made me swoon. And then it was gone and they had all these other things that said Stilton, but they were clearly something different.  It may be that they were different types of Stilton, in which case it would be very helpful to learn that.

[Duvel]

I am all pro regulating food names or designations.

Usually when I buy food - especially item with a premium price - I'd like to get what I intneded to buy. If I am out to buy a Roquefort I really want that and not a Bleu d'Auvergne (cow instead of sheep) or any other nondescript "blue cheese". Now, if I get an "American Roquefort" made from raw sheeps milk, coagulated with the same rennet and inoculated with the same strain of Penicillium would it be the same ? Maybe. But riping would take place in another place, conditions may vary etc.

We are used to like and pay dearly for specific wines from special places, specify the grape we like and the style. Nobody would question that buying a Chateauneuf du Pape should get you exactly what you pay for and not a wine made from the same grapes in the same style but from Napa Valley. It might be a fine wine but definitely not what you asked for.

Nobody forbids you to use the decription "in the style of blahblah". Germans love Schnitzel, but they are usually made from pork and the "healthy" one from turkey. They are called "Vienna style" and the meat type is given as they are pounded, breaded and fried but nobody would call them "Vienna Schnitzel" as those ones are made from veal and fried in lard. Its a fair solution: you know what expect approximately, but are not cheated into investin into an orinial dish hen you just get a copy (which might be not inferior, mind you).

So in conclusion: a proper (and maybe protected) name helps the customer to choose what he really wants. If someone wants to indicate what his products resembles using a phrase like "blahblah style" is from my perspective a fair solution to help the customer decide whether he wants the products or reaches out to get the original.

[Ashen]

I am all pro regulating food names or designations.

Usually when I buy food - especially item with a premium price - I'd like to get what I intneded to buy. If I am out to buy a Roquefort I really want that and not a Bleu d'Auvergne (cow instead of sheep) or any other nondescript "blue cheese". Now, if I get an "American Roquefort" made from raw sheeps milk, coagulated with the same rennet and inoculated with the same strain of Penicillium would it be the same ? Maybe. But riping would take place in another place, conditions may vary etc.

We are used to like and pay dearly for specific wines from special places, specify the grape we like and the style. Nobody would question that buying a Chateauneuf du Pape should get you exactly what you pay for and not a wine made from the same grapes in the same style but from Napa Valley. It might be a fine wine but definitely not what you asked for.

Nobody forbids you to use the decription "in the style of blahblah". Germans love Schnitzel, but they are usually made from pork and the "healthy" one from turkey. They are called "Vienna style" and the meat type is given as they are pounded, breaded and fried but nobody would call them "Vienna Schnitzel" as those ones are made from veal and fried in lard. Its a fair solution: you know what expect approximately, but are not cheated into investin into an orinial dish hen you just get a copy (which might be not inferior, mind you).

So in conclusion: a proper (and maybe protected) name helps the customer to choose what he really wants. If someone wants to indicate what his products resembles using a phrase like "blahblah style" is from my perspective a fair solution to help the customer decide whether he wants the products or reaches out to get the original.

 

How do you feel about something like Korbel California Champagne?  it does state where it is from , but use of the word champagne is only allowed because it is grandfathered  under the  wine trade agreement between the USA and France from a few years ago that keeps new producers of sparkling wine from using it. 

 

 

Producers in the USA have a tendency to name products with a supposed place of origin.  Italian bread, Canadian Bacon, Greek yoghurt , etc  that often bear little resemblance to the product as it is enjoyed in those countries. 

 

It is pretty funny when people visiting from USA want some real "Canadian Bacon".   The processed monstrosity that goes by that name in the USA bears no relation to good  back bacon other than at some point most of it was a pig.   Backbacon or its even better selling cousin peameal bacon are just brine cured pork loin . The peameal is then rolled in cornmeal. ( yeah weird but the peameal name is a holdover from long ago when they used it ) while   Backbacon is just  smoked after brine curing.    

[patrickamory]

When I lived in a small town in England 1980-81, there was a stand that boiled the burgers. They were mysteriously tasty so I wonder if they were actually deep-fried and my teenage self wasn't paying close enough attention to the liquid from which they emerged.

[weedy]

 

How do you feel about something like Korbel California Champagne?  it does state where it is from , but use of the word champagne is only allowed because it is grandfathered  under the  wine trade agreement between the USA and France from a few years ago that keeps new producers of sparkling wine from using it. 

 

 

 

 

that's totally annoying.

Even more annoying when a restaurant or party asks "would you like a glass of Champagne?" but then pours a Spanish or California sparkling wine.

There's nothing wrong with Spanish sparkling wine; just CALL IT THAT

[rotuts]

Ill have to say "  enough  "

 

Korbel is sometimes OK.  the 'natural' is OK  its not yeasty like the FR etc etc

 

but give up a bit.

 

if the REST.  says champagne , all you have to do is ask about its Provenace.

 

fizzy wine is not champagne.

 

but if they use the same methods, rotating the bottles, etc etc

 

its now can be called champs.

 

you are responsible for looking into its provenace.

[Edward J]

What I was taught in Switzerland was that if it didn't come from Champagne region in  France, it could not be called "Champagne".  While the Germans and Spanish have some very good ones, we were taught we could NOT call these champagnes, but rather "method chamagneoise" or made in the style of champagne.

 

Then again, what's the difference between brandy and cognac?  Both are destilled white wines, but only alcohol from the Cognac region of France is allowed the destinction of "Cognac".

[Porthos]

As I see it the OP's issue regarding cheese was not whether a particular cheese was imported from the country where first created or made locally in the style of the original. It was selling her a cheese not made in the style of brie. I fully get that Korbel is not from France. If I order a bottle of something that is supposed to made in the style of true champagne and that is delivered I am satisfied. If you bring me Cold Duck and you figure it has fizz and that's good enough I am going to be most unhappy. If I ask for an emmentaler cheese, not caring about the country of origin and you sell me muenster I am going to be unhappy.

 

Yes, I know the OP brought in other items beyond cheese but cheese which was not the style indicated was the apparent causation for this thread to be started.

[Arey]

My point exactly.  Of course, why hasn't was the shop owner given his sales persons a basic lesson in cheese.  A brie is not called a double cream or a triple cream or a fromager d'affinoise, it's called Brie.  If they con't actually carry Brie in that shop, why hasn't he taught his employees when customers ask for a Brie, to say "No, but we have something you might like equally well. Would you like a taste?" That's what good sales people used to do, if they didn't  have what you wanted, they'd suggest something they did have that you might like just as much. Not sell you something else, and tell you it's what you asked for. OT I suppose I was spoiled in my younger days at the original downtown Wanamakers and their blue haired salesladies who made you want to buy something they suggested even if it wasn't what you had gone to to the store to purchase.

[IowaDee]

Mars Bars, Moon Pies?

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Mars Bars, Moon Pies?

 

I can't speak for Moon Pies but Mars Bars are named for the man who made them:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_Mars,_Sr.

[Mjx]

Wasn't this a discussion of misrepresentation, in some instances verging on the illegal?

 

No one with a functional intelligence believes that French fries, Mars Bars, or English muffins come from France, Mars, or England, respectively, nor are they likely to be charged/willing to pay an outrageous sum for these items because they believe they're 'fancy' imports. On the other hand, misrepresenting something as an authentic product of [wherever] does everybody a disservice, from the producers of the authentic item, which is often undermined by misprepresentations/imposters, to the consumers who pay a lot for something that is unjustifiably expensive, and may be disappointing, to boot.

 

I really do not get why cultures/nations do not take more pride in the goods they produce themselves: US cheesemakers (for exmple) are certainly capable of producing cheeses every bit as good as any Fontina, Stilton, or Brie, why not take pride in this fact, and sell them for what they are, instead of misrepresenting them? I realize at least part of this occurs at retail level, but it isn't that difficult to sell US goods to Americans (or Danish goods to Danes, etc.). Those who truly appreciate quality are going to care about that, far more than place of origin, and if place of origin is the dealbreaker/maker, Wisconsin 'Fontina' isn't going to make the grade, anyway.

[Ashen]

that's totally annoying.

Even more annoying when a restaurant or party asks "would you like a glass of Champagne?" but then pours a Spanish or California sparkling wine.

There's nothing wrong with Spanish sparkling wine; just CALL IT THAT

I get that completely..  I personally will take a good Cava over champagne any day. 

[Anna N]

Here's where I see an issue with the naming Of cheeses. It is easy to name a blue cheese without encroaching on anyone else's trademarked name. You simply make sure to add "blue" at some point. This will lead me to understand a great deal about the style of cheese you are offering. But how do you choose a name to convey to me than that the nature of this cheese is fontina like? Wisconsin fontina seems to fit the bill. Perhaps it's not up to the highest standards of a traditional Italian fontina but it conveys to me that it's not a cream cheese, not a particularly hard cheese, etc. etc. and I can make some assumptions from its name. If on the other hand you call it something like "nufonta", I am completely at a loss as to its nature.

[rotuts]

AnnaN has got the cheese question pretty much settled, I think.

 

 

brie would be a style of a cheese, but Brie comes only from FR and a small part of FR at that.

 

there would be no such thing as roquefort w a small r .

[Mjx]

. . . . But how do you choose a name to convey to me than that the nature of this cheese is fontina like? Wisconsin fontina seems to fit the bill. Perhaps it's not up to the highest standards of a traditional Italian fontina but it conveys to me that it's not a cream cheese, not a particularly hard cheese, etc. etc. and I can make some assumptions from its name. If on the other hand you call it something like "nufonta", I am completely at a loss as to its nature.

 

I find it troubling that there persists the idea that a US-made product with certain similarities to one from another country (e.g. a cheese similar to Fontina) might not be as good. Also troubling is the idea that such a product would need to actually have a name that evokes whatever it is it resembles.

Instead (for example), a somewhat-Fontina-like Wisconsin cheese might be called 'Green Bay Cream', with the resemblance to Fontina being relegated to a wrapper blurb (e.g. 'Inspired by Fontina'), or retailers, who could be enouraged to offer samples, mentioning that if you like Fontina, you'll really appreciate this?

Giving things their own names would expand the universe of options, since now you'd have two lovely cheese options with similar textures, neither of which would be regarded as flawed for not having the other's flavour profile, which with products like cheese is often quite sensitive to terroir (I know, French, and wine-specific, but there's no other term that fits so well). Everybody would win.

[Anna N]

I find it troubling that there persists the idea that a US-made product with certain similarities to one from another country (e.g. a cheese similar to Fontina) might not be as good. Also troubling is the idea that such a product would need to actually have a name that evokes whatever it is it resembles.

Instead (for example), a somewhat-Fontina-like Wisconsin cheese might be called 'Green Bay Cream', with the resemblance to Fontina being relegated to a wrapper blurb (e.g. 'Inspired by Fontina'), or retailers, who could be enouraged to offer samples, mentioning that if you like Fontina, you'll really appreciate this?

Giving things their own names would expand the universe of options, since now you'd have two lovely cheese options with similar textures, neither of which would be regarded as flawed for not having the other's flavour profile, which with products like cheese is often quite sensitive to terroir (I know, French, and wine-specific, but there's no other term that fits so well). Everybody would win.

Perhaps in a more leisurely world some of your ideas would work but when most cheese is sold through supermarkets not through retail cheese outlets the chances of there being anyone to explain what you're buying is zero. Nor are you likely to get samples. We need a naming convention that is fast and easily absorbed by people whose minds are everywhere! Just like mine. When I can I shop at a dedicated cheese outlet. There they have all the time in the world to let me sample cheese after cheese after cheese. And they are knowledgeable and tell me all about each cheese and offer suggestions for others I might like. But most of the time I grab my cheese from the cheese cooler in the supermarket. The staff don't know much beyond Kraft cheese slices and already shredded (processed) mozzarella.

[Mjx]

Perhaps in a more leisurely world some of your ideas would work but when most cheese is sold through supermarkets not through retail cheese outlets the chances of there being anyone to explain what you're buying is zero. Nor are you likely to get samples. We need a naming convention that is fast and easily absorbed by people whose minds are everywhere! Just like mine. When I can I shop at a dedicated cheese outlet. There they have all the time in the world to let me sample cheese after cheese after cheese. And they are knowledgeable and tell me all about each cheese and offer suggestions for others I might like. But most of the time I grab my cheese from the cheese cooler in the supermarket. The staff don't know much beyond Kraft cheese slices and already shredded (processed) mozzarella.

 

Is that much cheese that is the quality of Fontina sold in supermarkets (not a rhetorical question; I actually dislike cheese, so have never paid any attention to it)? I've seen some fairly high-end goods in some supermarkets, but generally they've been somehow showcased, to increase their visibility.

 

It just seems that there's got to be a better way than to violate trademarks and DOC names for the sake of expedience.

[Anna N]

Is that much cheese that is the quality of Fontina sold in supermarkets (not a rhetorical question; I actually dislike cheese, so have never paid any attention to it)? I've seen some fairly high-end goods in some supermarkets, but generally they've been somehow showcased, to increase their visibility.

 

It just seems that there's got to be a better way than to violate trademarks and DOC names for the sake of expedience.

We have a couple of supermarkets with amazing cheese selections and and at certain times knowledgeable staff to go with them. Longo's and Fortino's come to mind and of course Whole Foods. I'm with you in wishing there was a better way I just cannot come up with one.